363 replies to this topic

[Anja]

The calendar:

 

1. Zolder - 25/26 April

2. Lausitzring - 16/17 May

3. Igora Drive - 30/31 May

4. Anderstorp - 13/14 June

5. Monza - 27/28 June

6. Norisring - 11/12 July

7. Brands Hatch - 22/23 August

8. Assen - 5/6 September

9. Nurburgring - 12/13 September

10. Hockenheim - 3/4 October

 

 

And in driver news, WRT changes its lineup to again feature two rookies - Ed Jones and Fabio Scherer. 

https://www.motorspo...cherer/4611967/

[messy]

It's a shame Ed Jones didn't last longer in Indycar because he was pretty good. 

[balage06]

I thought Aberdein was doing fine for a rookie... Maybe the factory will pick him up?

[Branislav]

Are Aston Martins in?

[Anja]

I thought Aberdein was doing fine for a rookie... Maybe the factory will pick him up?

 

I think he's doing that Jerez test with Audi right now and is in frame for a 2020 seat. 

[Risil]

Ed Jones? Wow, there's a name. He had his moments in Indycar but I think the writing was on the wall after he got essentially zero results with the second Ganassi car having replaced Tony Kanaan last year. Perhaps he was one of those drivers like Bourdais who suffered from the new-for-2018 aero kit.

 

Good that he's found a decent ride in Europe, anyway.

[balage06]

Are Aston Martins in?

 

Not yet, they are negotiating with BMW about engine supply

[Kev00]

I think he's doing that Jerez test with Audi right now and is in frame for a 2020 seat.

I can’t see Audi changing their factory line up, but if they were I’d love to see Kelvin Van der Linde get a go in DTM. I guess Kubica is getting a customer BMW drive.

[messy]

 

Ed Jones? Wow, there's a name. He had his moments in Indycar but I think the writing was on the wall after he got essentially zero results with the second Ganassi car having replaced Tony Kanaan last year. Perhaps he was one of those drivers like Bourdais who suffered from the new-for-2018 aero kit.

 

Good that he's found a decent ride in Europe, anyway.

 

 

Got a few third place finishes. I thought he was a bit unlucky to be dropped personally. 

 

Aberdein needs to stay in too, he was really good this year. Hopefully Aston find a way forward.

[maximilian]

Surprised that Ed "Interesting" Jones' sponsorship money seems to have dried up enough not to be able to stick around in IndyCar, but he won't be missed.

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

I only hope Johnathan Aberdein gets a shot in works squad after solid first year! be a bloody disgrace if not!

[Silberpfeil]

According to motorsport-total.com, there are no plans to change the works lineup.

However, Aberdein is set to get other select outings as an Audi driver and is also in line to be Frijns‘ replacement for the Norisring weekend, which clashes with the NYC Formula E round, as the Dutchman‘s contractual priority for such an event is Formula E.

Elsewhere, in an interview with Christian Nimmervoll, Helmut Marko has hinted at a DTM return for Lucas Auer, who was dropped from the RB programme after one year for SL points reasons. (As an aside, with all due respect for Luggi as a driver, how he got on the programme in the first place is still a bit of a mystery to me – I suspect the good Doctor owed Gerhard Berger a favour. )

Edited by Silberpfeil, 15 December 2019 - 19:51.

[Kev00]

So Bruno Spengler has been moved over to IMSA to race alongside De Phillippi and Blomqvist has seemingly been dropped by BMW. So this frees up a space in the factory teams, probably for Kubica. Yelloly could be another candidate.

[Silberpfeil]

Spengler‘s seat has gone to Lucas Auer.

Edit: Joel Eriksson is also out at BMW, with no replacement currently announced. Maybe BMW‘s issues did run deeper than just unreliability last year, if they‘re willing to make multiple changes to their line-up.

Edited by Silberpfeil, 18 December 2019 - 11:21.

[midgrid]

Aston Martin are out.

[Branislav]

DTM in front of collapse...

[SenorSjon]

Touring car races are a bit down everywhere I believe. They are getting closer and closer to GT3 spec, losing that brutal road car feeling you had when you had Alfa 155's, Vectra's and the like competing.

[HistoryFan]

I don't see a future for DTM and I think all kind of series like that are in big trouble for the future. Manufactures aren't interested in such series. They all want to go electric. Even Formula 1 is not more attractive for them.

[juicy sushi]

I don't see a future for DTM and I think all kind of series like that are in big trouble for the future. Manufactures aren't interested in such series. They all want to go electric. Even Formula 1 is not more attractive for them.

Japan's Super GT series run to essentially the same rules, but have much more commitment from the Japanese manufacturers.  

 

DTM last a lot longer than the last version, but ultimately, was in an awkward middle ground that couldn't hold as motorsports re-aligns.

[pacificquay]

Unless they can do something to rescue it before the first race, DTM is over

[Vielleicht]

Japan's Super GT series run to essentially the same rules, but have much more commitment from the Japanese manufacturers.  

 

DTM last a lot longer than the last version, but ultimately, was in an awkward middle ground that couldn't hold as motorsports re-aligns.

Japanese manufacturers (other than Nissan) are seemigly more skeptical over EVs than the German manufacturers, so I'm not too suprised to see DTM 'suffering' before SuperGT in this way.

 

I don't see a future for DTM and I think all kind of series like that are in big trouble for the future. Manufactures aren't interested in such series. They all want to go electric. Even Formula 1 is not more attractive for them.

It looks that way. I think DTM may have to morph itself into this future vision for itself a little faster than they have been moving so far...

 

[LucaP]

Just admit it'not a touring cars series anymore and run with gt3 ffs
Yes im drunk but i am also right

Edited by Luca Pacchiarini, 24 January 2020 - 22:31.

[Anja]

Just admit it'not a touring cars series anymore and run with gt3 ffs
Yes im drunk but i am also right

 

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. It seems like they're trying to make DTM more "international" with the recent calendar change etc but it's still just one small series - not exactly enticing for manufacturers to enter and build cars just for that. For all the talk about rules convergence with GT500 there's not much actually happening there. It might be time to consider a more universal kind of cars. 

[PayasYouRace]

They might as well just adopt GT500 rules, opening up more cars that can compete and getting that crossover with SuperGT that they seem so keen on.

 

Or they could just be a touring car series with TCR rules.

[balage06]

Or they could just be a touring car series with TCR rules.

 

With German premium brands? Both VW and Audi just pulled out of WTCR btw. But other than that, there's ADAC TCR Germany and TCR Europe already, I'd say the market is already full.

[jee]

Maybe go to IMSA, FIA and ACO and get Class 1 cars BoPed into LMDh to form "LeMans Daytona Nürburgring Fuji h"?

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Barring the BTCC, There's naff all for BMW In touring cars not even TCR! But good news for Johnathan Aberdein at least, defecting to the dark side! Audi are crazy to let him go after that stellar first season! especially seeing his dad and Audi legend Chris Aberdein, managed a fine career dedicated to the four rings.... I find it something of an outrage Audi never kept hold of Aberdein....but I digress..... the DTM has been dead for years! all this Autosport talk of drivers under 30? what of the ones over 40 or 50?? that's how the DTM ruled.... Free for everyone, off the peg cars for all! so if BMW And Audi want to solve the crisis..... make their old cars readily available NOW! but then too much F1 Malarky in DTM now.... DTM is now sadly a dead duck compared to its illustrious glory and history!

[balage06]

Audi's lineup remains unchanged:

https://www.motorspo...s-2020/4678716/

[balage06]

Kubica will race in DTM with a customer BMW run by ART GP:

https://www.dtm.com/...-2020-bestätigt

[MaGiK]

Good news.

Alltough i wish rumors about 2 cars were true.

[Gemini]

Any bets how long it will take before 80% of the content in this thread is either "RK is great' or 'RK is ****'?     Anyway at least this thread have chance to stay on front page. Otherwise DTM changed recently direction it discouraged lot of people... But maybe I am wrong

[messy]

Suspect the attention on Kubica is exactly what this series needed to keep it on people's radar this season. Not looking great otherwise.

[Anja]

Any bets how long it will take before 80% of the content in this thread is either "RK is great' or 'RK is ****'?     Anyway at least this thread have chance to stay on front page. Otherwise DTM changed recently direction it discouraged lot of people... But maybe I am wrong

 

I already saw some Polish fans complaining that driving for a customer team puts him at a disadvantage from the start, so the narration might be "if only he was driving for the factory team...". 

 

They're not completely wrong though. 

Edited by Anja, 13 February 2020 - 17:30.

[SenorSjon]

https://www.motorspo...doubt-/4687375/

 

Audi unclear for 2021. I think this will be the last DTM season.

[Anja]

Yeah, Audi pulling out would be the end for sure. The only solution to somehow continue would be to just bite the bullet and run GT3 cars or something like that.

[OvDrone]

If Audi abandons DTM as well...

 

Gotta love VW.

[Ben1445]

Of course, DTM could always initiate a shift to electric power... 

 

If they had a chassis commissioned, picked a battery supplier, reused FE powertrain tech (all the major German marques are in FE) and silhouetted the cars as the Audi e-tron GT, BMW i4 etc. and it might be able to make it stick. Minimal investment as well. 

 

I think they've waited too long on adopting hybrids and now have to skip it entirely. 

[HistoryFan]

DTM will die. As will the most combustion engined racing series...

[balage06]

Yeah, touring car series are in trouble in general. I've just read this as well (slightly OT):

https://www.motorspo...n-exit/4687234/

[ezequiel]

Yes. WTCR seems to be in trouble for 2020 also (thou some national and regional TCR series are doing ok)

[juicy sushi]

Just admit it'not a touring cars series anymore and run with gt3 ffs
Yes im drunk but i am also right

The original DTM was a replacement for the DRM which was a sprint GT series.

 

I think they've got to either go to GT3, or if they want to get costs under control, GT4.  Or go back to their touring car roots and go TCR.

[balage06]

But then again, a German GT3 series exists already

https://www.adac-gt-masters.de/

[Silberpfeil]

But then again, a German GT3 series exists already

https://www.adac-gt-masters.de/

 

In addition to this, there’s also the DTM Trophy this year, running Audi’s, BMW’s and (awkwardly) Aston GT4 cars – even though they’re not allowed to call them that. I don’t think it’s been confirmed whether there will be other brands as well, but as far as I can see, this doesn’t explicitly exclude the possibility: https://www.dtm.com/en/dtm-trophy EDIT: While we’re looking ahead to the future, I wouldn’t mind the GT Masters morphing into or taking over the DTM calendar… having seven race weekends a year takes any sense of narrative and continuity away from the championship. I find any solution involving GT cars highly unlikely, though.

Edited by Silberpfeil, 18 February 2020 - 21:13.

[juicy sushi]

They might as well just adopt GT500 rules, opening up more cars that can compete and getting that crossover with SuperGT that they seem so keen on.

 

Or they could just be a touring car series with TCR rules.

The thing is that the DTM side has been very cool towards the Japanese manufacturers, then begging them to supply cars, but not being happy about German cars in Japan.

[juicy sushi]

In addition to this, there’s also the DTM Trophy this year, running Audi’s, BMW’s and (awkwardly) Aston GT4 cars – even though they’re not allowed to call them that. I don’t think it’s been confirmed whether there will be other brands as well, but as far as I can see, this doesn’t explicitly exclude the possibility: https://www.dtm.com/en/dtm-trophy EDIT: While we’re looking ahead to the future, I wouldn’t mind the GT Masters morphing into or taking over the DTM calendar… having seven race weekends a year takes any sense of narrative and continuity away from the championship. I find any solution involving GT cars highly unlikely, though.

 

I think any solution is unlikely.  ADAC already do all of the DTM's available alternatives, and probably run it better.

[maximilian]

Of course, DTM could always initiate a shift to electric power... 

 

If they had a chassis commissioned, picked a battery supplier, reused FE powertrain tech (all the major German marques are in FE) and silhouetted the cars as the Audi e-tron GT, BMW i4 etc. and it might be able to make it stick. Minimal investment as well. 

 

I think they've waited too long on adopting hybrids and now have to skip it entirely. 

 

Probably the only viable longer term solution, even though it would need to be implemented post haste.  One could envision eDTM becoming a parallel/support series to Formula E, with as you said, some of the already engaged marques dressing up the same tech they use in Formula E as their road cars...

[Ben1445]

Not hard to see why DTM has been slow to realise what is happening with the German manufactures IMO. 
 
This was Gerhard Berger in July last year: https://www.autospor...dtm-dna--berger

"Our main core business is spectacular racing. I have not seen many spectacular races with electric technology.

"Maybe it is not even right to say not spectacular, it's just slow.

"It's not our DNA. It doesn't mean there cannot be a touring car with electric [power], but not the DTM.

"Our core DNA is different."

 
Meanwhile FE has pulled in Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche. We've known that was to be the case since mid 2017 and it should have sent yet more alarm bells ringing when Mercedes quit DTM for FE a year later. Yet as recently as mid last year Berger was still a huge FE critic and was sceptical of hybrids in DTM let alone electric. 
 
It was only in November that DTM revealed an open ended 'electric vision' with battery swaps and 1000bhp machinery and now they plan to have the spec hybrid in 2022. But they have missed so many chances to get on top of what is going on and I think critically failed to see what was happening right under their noses.

Edited by Ben1445, 19 February 2020 - 09:59.

[maximilian]

Not hard to see why DTM has been slow to realise what is happening with the German manufactures IMO. 
 
This was Gerhard Berger in July last year: https://www.autospor...dtm-dna--berger

 
Meanwhile FE has pulled in Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche. We've known that was to be the case since mid 2017 and it should have sent yet more alarm bells ringing when Mercedes quit DTM for FE a year later. Yet as recently as mid last year Berger was still a huge FE critic and was sceptical of hybrids in DTM let alone electric. 
 
It was only in November that DTM revealed an open ended 'electric vision' with battery swaps and 1000bhp machinery and now they plan to have the spec hybrid in 2022. But they have missed so many chances to get on top of what is going on and I think critically failed to see what was happening right under their noses.

 

Yeah, he really sounds pretty clueless there, and this sort of old-guard petrolhead thinking is seriously facing extinction in a hurry.  Makes you wonder if he ever even bothered to watch an FE race, because almost every single one of them had me on the edge of my seat.

Edited by maximilian, 19 February 2020 - 13:07.

[hansmann]

Not hard to see why DTM has been slow to realise what is happening with the German manufactures IMO. 
 
This was Gerhard Berger in July last year: https://www.autospor...dtm-dna--berger

 
Meanwhile FE has pulled in Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche. We've known that was to be the case since mid 2017 and it should have sent yet more alarm bells ringing when Mercedes quit DTM for FE a year later. Yet as recently as mid last year Berger was still a huge FE critic and was sceptical of hybrids in DTM let alone electric. 
 
It was only in November that DTM revealed an open ended 'electric vision' with battery swaps and 1000bhp machinery and now they plan to have the spec hybrid in 2022. But they have missed so many chances to get on top of what is going on and I think critically failed to see what was happening right under their noses.

 

Let's not forget that FE is only a strategic marketing exercise, not a racing series .

Manufacturers mainly join for the low cost of entry and financial incentives , such as subsidized tech development and favourable treatment by regulatory bodies .

Same reason why they build fully electric cars at all, plus fleet average emissions rules , tax savings etc .

 

DTM's issues go far beyond engine technology - in many parts of the world, much of motor racing has lost its mass appeal years ago .

Especially for a series that was a bit niche to begin with, and was lucky to get as much attention for as long as it did .

[Ben1445]

Let's not forget that FE is only a strategic marketing exercise, not a racing series .

In what world is DTM any different to Formula E in that regard? They're even alike in that they're both common chassis with manufacture specific powertrains. What is it that makes DTM a racing series and Formula E not?