96 replies to this topic

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Sad news indeed from Holden recently, but what does it mean for the future of touring car racing down under? has it handed the keys to TCR as the premier touring car category in Aus? or will something else materialise? end of an era of Ford vs Holden? that's crazy right?

GRM being the main players here, Renault backing for their Megane's and running a brace of Alfa's? says a big F.U to supercars after the way they were treated... and lets face it TCR attracted some big names in its first year.....thaught's anyone?

[ezequiel]

They will run the Commodore up to the end of 2021 for what I've read. Something like that has happened in Super TC2000 with the Renault works team: they have kept running the Fluence GT despite it not being sold anymore because they don't have a suitable car in Argentina to replace it. But I don't think it's a situation that can be sustained for too long (well, to keep with the Argentine example, that was what Turismo Carretera did after the 70s: to keep running the same old cars until they evolved into some sort of retro prototypes)

[king_crud]

Sad news indeed from Holden recently, but what does it mean for the future of touring car racing down under? has it handed the keys to TCR as the premier touring car category in Aus? or will something else materialise? end of an era of Ford vs Holden? that's crazy right?

GRM being the main players here, Renault backing for their Megane's and running a brace of Alfa's? says a big F.U to supercars after the way they were treated... and lets face it TCR attracted some big names in its first year.....thaught's anyone?

 

the meatheads won't follow small poofy European cars racing. The biggest selling vehicles in Australia used to be Commodores and Falcons, now they're big 4wd Utes, so they'll probably work them into the series somehow. Gotta keep the meatheads happy

[lustigson]

I'm not from down-under, so I'm not too familiar with local line-ups, but I suppose there are alternative models that Holden could use? Ford replaced the Falcon with the Mustang, so couldn't Holden replace the Commodore with something else from the GM stable? What about the Buick LaCrosse (the Regal probably being out of the equation, since that's an Opel/Vauxhall model anyway), Cadillac CT5, or Chevrolet Impala, or the Camaro, which would compete nicely with the Mustang?

[GreenMachine]

Complicated.  GM says they are switching to utes and SUVs.  Will we see Superutes?  SuperSuvs (they are a Sports Utility Vehicle, so that makes perfect sense, no?  )?  They could run the Camaro, not sure though what its future is though …  

[krapmeister]

Apparently production of the Camaro is going to finish in 2021.

 

May be a moot issue anyway, as I reckon the switch to a ute and SUV only offering is a last roll of the dice by GM in Australia - if it doesn't work then they will likely pull the pin on Holden altogether.

 

TCR seems to be gaining some momentum, from the teams at least - as king says though, it's unlikely to get the crowds that Supercars does. And the Superutes category has been a complete disaster...

[maximilian]

Does it have to be tied to a model at all?  Why not just call it the Holden Supercar, and be done with it? 

[Rinehart]

Complicated.  GM says they are switching to utes and SUVs.  Will we see Superutes?  SuperSuvs (they are a Sports Utility Vehicle, so that makes perfect sense, no?  )?  They could run the Camaro, not sure though what its future is though …  

Supercars with its blue v red rivalry is more like football with a tribal following than the bs road relevance racing we have in Europe. I think after the Commodore is extinct, GM will provide another model as the rival to Ford or else the rivalry is dead and Aussie Supercars would die with it. But I don't think that will happen as GM/Holden want to grow SUV market share in Australia, so supporting a Holden badged car in Supercars will remain good value for the brand and will maintain loyalty they've built up over many years. 

Edited by Rinehart, 12 December 2019 - 13:39.

[Burai]

Supercars with its blue v red rivalry is more like football with a tribal following than the bs road relevance racing we have in Europe. I think after the Commodore is extinct, GM will provide another model as the rival to Ford or else the rivalry is dead and Aussie Supercars would die with it. But I don't think that will happen as GM/Holden want to grow SUV market share in Australia, so supporting a Holden badged car in Supercars will remain good value for the brand and will maintain loyalty they've built up over many years. 

 

Yeah, they'll probably just homologate something else in the GM or PSA range and badge it as a Holden. Ironically, that'll probably be the next Insignia.

Edited by Burai, 12 December 2019 - 14:33.

[BRG]

Give up on supercars, throw all the support behind the new Super 5000 series to keep the V8 addicts happy, and have a TCR series in support.

[GreenMachine]

Give up on supercars, throw all the support behind the new Super 5000 series to keep the V8 addicts happy, and have a TCR series in support.

 

The S5000 run a Ford lump currently. 

 

Given the shenanigans on the engine front in Scars, shouldn't be too had to come up with a pair of 'Ford' and 'Holden' engines.  They could be homologated at any power level deemed desirable, and costs kept down with subsidies from the said car companies.

 

Alternatively, produce a few sets of 'Chev' branded valve covers to fit the Ford heads …   Job done   

[BRG]

 

Alternatively, produce a few sets of 'Chev' branded valve covers to fit the Ford heads …   Job done   

Or have 'Holden' on one cover and 'Ford' on the other? 

[V8 Fireworks]

The S5000 run a Ford lump currently.

Given the shenanigans on the engine front in Scars, shouldn't be too had to come up with a pair of 'Ford' and 'Holden' engines. They could be homologated at any power level deemed desirable, and costs kept down with subsidies from the said car companies.

Alternatively, produce a few sets of 'Chev' branded valve covers to fit the Ford heads … Job done

Chevrolet runners already use a specially cast cylinder head and block that is a replica of the Yates Racing cylinder head and Ford Racing BOSS 302 Windsor block.

It is in no way related to any Chevrolet small block that you can buy from the Chevrolet parts catalogue, and I think that's really a shame when by comparison anyone can buy the Ford parts.

Saying that, it seems buying the block and head is the least of it. It's the 100 hours of machining, needle roller main bearings, CNC dry sump and so on that are done to the block that make a Supercars engine cost mega bucks...

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 13 December 2019 - 13:38.

[king_crud]

Or have 'Holden' on one cover and 'Ford' on the other? 

 

Forden

[lustigson]

Yeah, they'll probably just homologate something else in the GM or PSA range and badge it as a Holden. Ironically, that'll probably be the next Insignia.

PSA?

[djr900]

PSA?

Peugeot Citroen  (PSA) now own Vauxhall/Opel ,    I have no idea if they will now have any kind of link with Holden ,

as they would have done when they were all part of GM

If they do , is there a suitable Peugeot or Citroen that could have a V8 squeezed into it ?

[lustigson]

Peugeot Citroen  (PSA) now own Vauxhall/Opel ,    I have no idea if they will now have any kind of link with Holden ,

as they would have done when they were all part of GM

If they do , is there a suitable Peugeot or Citroen that could have a V8 squeezed into it ?

 

Well, am I correct in assuming that the current Holden Commodore is the same basis model as the Opel Insigna? Then that could yet serve as a Supercar base.

 

Otherwise, the Peugeot 508 is quite a nice car and would likely handle a V8, assuming that the Supercar series are at least partly silhouette-based cars.

 

 

However, I guess the ties between GM and Opel/Vauxhall have been severed, so a PSA model wouldn’t be a possibility for Holden.

Edited by lustigson, 13 December 2019 - 18:26.

[FPV GTHO]

The Holden teams would sooner continue racing the old car no longer on sale than switch to a newer model the manufacturer doesn't sell locally. Once the Commodore and Astra go, unless something comes from the American range first, there's no alternative.

[potmotr]

Sounds like a big call is needed by someone at Supercars.

 

I think TCR would be wrong for Australia, front wheel drive for starters?

 

Perhaps it just becomes a silhouette series?

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe something compatible with the DTM and SuperGT?

[V8 Fireworks]

Perhaps it just becomes a silhouette series?

It's already a silhouette series... The cars are all identical (using a control spaceframe design) apart from the Body panels which depends on make and front suspension (which is fairly free for some inexplicable reason)...

https://youtu.be/-TrKewO56IQ

Everything else is largely standardised (control camshaft, control crankshaft, control brakes, control shocks, control gearbox, control rear suspension etc) or tightly specified (e.g., maximum cumulative horse power, maximum throttle body bores, maximum cylinder head port angles etc).

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 14 December 2019 - 16:29.

[V8 Fireworks]

Maybe something compatible with the DTM and SuperGT?

Too expensive for Australia and too fast for Bathurst.

The organisers have boxed themselves into a corner where they are unable to attract new manufacturers, sponsorship offers poor ROI and teams can barely afford the running costs...

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 14 December 2019 - 16:26.

[Gary Davies]

Forden

Not that I follow tin tops but I understand that's been a reasonably accurate description anyway in recent years.

[GreenMachine]

Not that I follow tin tops but I understand that's been a reasonably accurate description anyway in recent years.

 

 

It's already a silhouette series... The cars are all identical (using a control spaceframe design) apart from the Body panels which depends on make and front suspension (which is fairly free for some inexplicable reason)...

https://youtu.be/-TrKewO56IQ

Everything else is largely standardised (control camshaft, control crankshaft, control brakes, control shocks, control gearbox, control rear suspension etc) or tightly specified (e.g., maximum cumulative horse power, maximum throttle body bores, maximum cylinder head port angles etc).

 

What V8F didn't say is that the 'cars' are performance balanced as well as all the above.

[teejay]

Rumor of BMW coming along - if you could entice Merc to come back, dangle a carrot to Kia to run the Stinger - doesn't matter what lump is in it - but you can't have 24 Mustangs racing each other. 

[FPV GTHO]

I think they would need to tweek the rules a touch to really entice the Euros. IIRC the turbo limits are 3.85l for a V6. If you allowed V8's of the same capacity, it would open up a few more road engines.

[teejay]

Who makes a V8 that small? 

 

Even the current TT Merc/BMW stuff is 4l plus 

[FPV GTHO]

And the Nissan was 5.6l originally and the AMG was 6.3l

[king_crud]

Is the series now on pay tv only?

[teejay]

100% live and ad free on pay tv

 

40% of it on free to air

 

Next tv deal is aiming for 75%

[Wuzak]

I think they would need to tweek the rules a touch to really entice the Euros. IIRC the turbo limits are 3.85l for a V6. If you allowed V8's of the same capacity, it would open up a few more road engines.

 

I don't think you need anything bigger than the limit you suggest for a turbo.

 

Actually, you could get around the same performance with 2 litre turbo. Certainly in terms of maximum output - the Sierra turbos weren't far behind what the V8s have now around 25-30 years ago.

[Wuzak]

Rumor of BMW coming along - if you could entice Merc to come back, dangle a carrot to Kia to run the Stinger - doesn't matter what lump is in it - but you can't have 24 Mustangs racing each other. 

 

Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrafoglio?

 

Though they don't seem to sell them in Australia, so it would probably have to be the Veloce with 2L turbo.

 

Also, the base car doesn't have to be rear drive - as witnessed by Nissan's involvement the past few years.

 

Question is, what would other manufacturers see in the series? Especially since a new engine configuration won't be allowed to have any significant advantage over the existing engines.

[juicy sushi]

If the series isn't sustainable, it'll probably be time for Aussie racing to get blown up again, like the early 1990s and early 1980s.  Going by the IMSA Michelin Pilot Sport series, the GT4 and TCR cars are not too far apart on laps times.  Throw sufficient ballast at the GT4s, maybe slightly lower power and you could do GT4 Mustang/GT4 Camaro/BMW M3 vs TCR if you really wanted to.  Wouldn't have a ton of manufacturer support, but the cars are already customer cars as it is, so it wouldn't be needed.

[Alfisti]

I'll defend the series until I am blue in the face. Mostly because the cars are a perfect fit for bathurst, this still the best race all year.

Imho they will just move onto the new Camaro.

[Wuzak]

I'll defend the series until I am blue in the face. Mostly because the cars are a perfect fit for bathurst, this still the best race all year.

Imho they will just move onto the new Camaro.

 

I agree, for while Holden plan to sell only SUVs and pickups, their dealers will still be selling the Comaro, as long as it is available, I'm sure.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't think you need anything bigger than the limit you suggest for a turbo.

Actually, you could get around the same performance with 2 litre turbo. Certainly in terms of maximum output - the Sierra turbos weren't far behind what the V8s have now around 25-30 years ago.

I wasn't suggesting that. Right now V8 turbos are still banned, no matter how small their displacement.

[BRG]

..their dealers will still be selling the Camaro, as long as it is available, I'm sure.

Is it sold as a Holden or a Chevrolet in Australia?  And is it still LHD like the ones they try to sell in the UK?  GM not having learnt from Ford that if you make a RHD Mustang, British buyers will be interested.

[Alfisti]

All cars must be rhd in oz.

[krapmeister]

You can drive LHD Cars in Australia but they are usually privately imported and mostly vintage or classic models - all new cars that are sold here need to be RHD.

[Wuzak]

Is it sold as a Holden or a Chevrolet in Australia?  And is it still LHD like the ones they try to sell in the UK?  GM not having learnt from Ford that if you make a RHD Mustang, British buyers will be interested.

 

Chevrolet.

 

No, they are RHD.

 

I've seen plenty of Mustangs, but only one Comaro.

[krapmeister]

I have seen a few Camaros but bloody Mustangs are everywhere. Pretty sure though the Camaro is somewhere north of $20k dearer for the base model compared to the base model V8 Mustang, so that may explain it a bit...

[FPV GTHO]

I have seen a few Camaros but bloody Mustangs are everywhere. Pretty sure though the Camaro is somewhere north of $20k dearer for the base model compared to the base model V8 Mustang, so that may explain it a bit...

The Camaros are in much the same situation the FTE Mustangs that Tickford conversed almost 2 decades ago.

[BRG]

Chevrolet.

 

No, they are RHD.

 

I wonder why the hell GM don't sell the RHD version in the UK then?  They actually market the Camaro here and advertise it.  Complete madness, but then, who can expect much in the way of common sense from any car manufacturer.

[FPV GTHO]

I wonder why the hell GM don't sell the RHD version in the UK then? They actually market the Camaro here and advertise it. Complete madness, but then, who can expect much in the way of common sense from any car manufacturer.

It's a local conversion done by Walkinshaw

[krapmeister]

GM has just announced that they will be closing down Holden and exiting RHD markets. Some niche models such as the Corvette and Camaro will still be sold in Australia under the GMSV (General Motors Special Vehicles) brand, RHD conversions to be done locally.

https://www.caradvic...drive-globally/

[teejay]

Archer Capital will be looking at their ~300 million investment and beginning to wonder how many cents in the dollar they'll get back.

[GreenMachine]

I'm surprised that people seem surprised.  I'm on the record elsewhere some time ago saying that GM was the weak link (cf Ford), a reversal of the relative positions compared to a few years back.

 

GM could offer Scars a LHD model, given all they want are the (templates for) bodywork, but why would they, if they aren't selling anything here?  And as for spending money supporting entries, ditto?

 

All of a sudden touring car racing in Australia has bright new future!

 

Or will we see C8 'vettes racing Mustang shapes?

 

Interesting times!!

[RacingGreen]

Archer Capital will be looking at their ~300 million investment and beginning to wonder how many cents in the dollar they'll get back.

 

Don't Archer / Supercars own the commercial rights to the Bathurst 12 hours as well? That race and category has been going from strength to strength. Perhaps they will be able to merge the two using Marc Mustangs and get back more than you think. Australia is relatively a small market and maybe it's time to stop being so insular and just adopt an international category, (or adapt an already established rule set at least.) After all even DTM and SuperGT are proving too expensive in their much larger car markets and are looking to align their rules to give their series more long term options.

[scolbourne]

They should bring back a 24 hour race at Bathurst and then maybe merge the 12 hour and Supercar races into something both groups of fans would be happy with , maybe an eight hour race (but controlled by by distance, so about 1500km). The race should finish in the dark to add to the spectacle.

Edited by scolbourne, 24 February 2020 - 02:02.

[Sardukar]

Don't Archer / Supercars own the commercial rights to the Bathurst 12 hours as well? That race and category has been going from strength to strength. Perhaps they will be able to merge the two using Marc Mustangs and get back more than you think. Australia is relatively a small market and maybe it's time to stop being so insular and just adopt an international category, (or adapt an already established rule set at least.) After all even DTM and SuperGT are proving too expensive in their much larger car markets and are looking to align their rules to give their series more long term options.

 

Supercars has better racing than both DTM and SuperGT, so i would be extremely hesitant adopting any overseas rules. Gen3 is coming and i'm sure they've known Holden was going to be dropped for a long time now. There are alot of easy cost cutting measure that can be undertaken with Gen3 before we start even contemplating adopting categories from overseas. Also tv ratings on foxsports and ten are extremely good, whilst almost every other sport is experiencing a bit of a decline Supercars is holding pretty damn steady.