184 replies to this topic

[TEHNOS]

Cesare

[Dunc]

Has there ever been a team principal that did a good job managing 2 top drivers? I can't think of one in the modern era. Prior to that, maybe Ferrari, because he just didn't care. Williams did a terrible job. Dennis couldn't do it, neither can Wolff. Chapman, Briatore, Todt and Horner/Marko didn't even try.

 

I'm not sure who would get the credit for it but Ferrari managed the situation with Kimi and Massa pretty well from 2007-09. Both were top drivers at the time.

[Dunc]

Ken Tyrrell was the best.  

 

There is a good case for him, he'd certainly be in my top five.

 

Off-topic but is there any thread on the boards about why Tyrell never reached the success it had with JYS again? They were still winning races into the 1980s, I find it and Brabham's fall from grace quite hard to figure out.

[William Hunt]

Ken Tyrrell easily number 1 for me

 

Since you don't need to win races or titles to be a great team principle (you mainly need money for that and being a great team principe is having great human qualities to manage your staff and motivate them) I would certainly also mention Giancarlo Minardi

Enzo Ferrari is not a great team principle at all in my book: extremely autocratic (and an admirer of Musolini, same can be said of Henry Ford who's biggest hero was Adolf Hitler), he behaved like he was some kind of godfather

Edited by William Hunt, 13 January 2020 - 14:43.

[Branislav]

Ken Tyrrell

 

 

F1 dominator between the late 60s and early 70s with Jackie Stewart, the lumberjack was an extraordinary talent scout and was able to bring some important technological innovations to the Circus

 

Team principal of great success, but also talent scout and profound innovator. Ken Tyrrell was all of this and more. One of the most long-lived in the history of Formula 1, crossing the paddock from 1966 to 1997 the English 'lumberjack' has seen the Circus evolve over the decades. Tyrrell has in fact gone from the heroic years of the 'garagisti' to the decade symbol of technological research, the 90s. In his infinite career he has lived through world championship seasons and then slowly slides towards the less noble positions of the grid, without however the stable bearing his name ever losing its charmacquired in times gone by. Former timber trader in the post-war years (hence his nickname) Tyrrell moved from the Royal Air Force during the Second World War to Formula 3 and Formula 2 during the 1950s. A fairly good driver, like many other great managers in F1 history, he soon realizes that he is better behind a desk than behind the wheel.

 

In particular, however, his best quality is to intuit talent in future champions. One of all changes his career, consequently transforming his own: Jackie Stewart . He has worked with the Scotsman since 1963, in the minor formulas, thus making the qualities of the future Sir visible to all. At 44, in 1968, Tyrrell crowns his dream of entering Formula 1, becoming team principal of Matra Internationalthanks also to the help of Elf, Dunlop and Ford, with which he drives his cars. Here he embraces Stewart again, with whom he begins to reap repeat successes: that year the Milton driver is second in the world championship, 12 months later comes the world consecration for him and for Tyrrell, which leads Matra to success in the manufacturers. Contention with the ownership over the use of the Ford V12 will push the 'lumberjack' Ken to leave the French team together with the designer Derek Gardner, giving birth to the Tyrrell 001.

 

It is the beginning of a story that will last over 400 Grands Prix, gathering overwhelming successes , especially in the early years . In 1970 the car was very fast (three times in the front row in three races) but unreliable. The following year, on the other hand, is simply the best: for Ken Tyrrell, the second brace for the constructors-riders arrives, the first to lead the team that bears his name. The last great joy came in 1973, with Stewart's third world championship. But this is also a year of tremendous pain for the whole team due to the death in the last race of the season of François Cevert , also discovered by Tyrrell and who was to have inherited the gallons of first driving from his Scottish teammate after his withdrawal.

 

Without Stewart, with the passing of the seasons, Ken Tyrrell's team slips further back into the grid, but the English boss's talent scout eye launches other young champions on the track. Jody Scheckter, Patrick Depailler and then Michele Alboreto, Martin Brundle, Stefan Bellof, Jean Alesi, all pass through the hands of the 'uncle'. With Gardner's work, however, the team also becomes a laboratory of innovations. Unforgettable the P34, the car with six wheels , which won in 1976 at Anderstorp giving the last double ever to Tyrrell. In the early 90s then, with the engagement of Harvey Postlethwaite, the Tyrrell will be the first to deploy a raised-faced single-seater on the track, making school among rivals. Man of a vintage F1, Tyrrell, also afflicted by the disease, will sell the team to British American Tobacco, eventually refusing to drive it in the 1998 transition year because it disagrees with the decision imposed by Craig Pollock on drivers. A 'tough', until the end.

 

https://www.formulap...ter-475053.html

 

Translated from italian

Edited by Branislav, 16 January 2020 - 14:02.

[MKSixer]

Darth Dennis

Jean Todt

Frank Williams

Colin Chapman

Ross Brown (TP and Autosport Forums Legend)

Ken Terrell

 

 

 

Martin Whitmarsh - 

[shure]

I'm not sure who would get the credit for it but Ferrari managed the situation with Kimi and Massa pretty well from 2007-09. Both were top drivers at the time.

I don't think they did a particularly great job.  Neither Kimi or Massa were especially demanding drivers.  There was a lot of talk at the time how Kimi was unhappy about setup direction and how his needs weren't being taken into account but he wasn't someone known for throwing his toys out of the pram.  I think the management had an easier time with them than, say, Ron did with Hamilton and Alonso.

 

The TPs get judged too harshly on this IMO.  If a top driver wants to behave like an arse then there's not an awful lot a TP can do about it.  

[SpeedRacer`]

I think Jackie Stewart deserves a mention.

 

A brand new team, first podium in first season and won a race & took a pole by season 3.

 

When the same team with had equal or more investment directly from Ford, it was significantly worse.

[PayasYouRace]

I think Jackie Stewart deserves a mention.

A brand new team, first podium in first season and won a race & took a pole by season 3.

When the same team with had equal or more investment directly from Ford, it was significantly worse.

Most of the credit for Stewart should really go to Paul. Jackie’s connections brought the big money in, but it was effectively an extension of Paul’s already successful operation.

Of course Ford mismanaged the team once they owned it, but it has bounced back since Red Bull put their money in, and Christian Horner.

[PayasYouRace]

There is a good case for him, he'd certainly be in my top five.

Off-topic but is there any thread on the boards about why Tyrell never reached the success it had with JYS again? They were still winning races into the 1980s, I find it and Brabham's fall from grace quite hard to figure out.

With Tyrrell is was very gradual. In the 70s they were up there but never quite clicked at times when Ferrari were bulletproof and Lotus innovated harder. But I think the team really lost out when Ken couldn’t or wouldn’t pick up a turbo engine. From that time onwards F1 was evolving and I think Uncle Ken’s management approach just didn’t suit the sport any more. It’s the kind of thing we see in different eras.

Brabham is a bit easier I think. Had a dip between the original ownership and Bernie’s time, but Bernie returned it to championship winning form. But once the FISA/FOCA war was over Bernie’s priorities were not with the team. Once he sold it, it didn’t stand a chance in the hands of the crooks and charlatans it ended up with.

[maximilian]

The only argument against Wolff imo is that it's a bit too early to tell exactly.

 

The real problem is that Wolff isn't British.

[PlatenGlass]

The thing about Wolff is that he just took over a massive corporate machine and it just continued on its largely expected trajectory.

He also comes across as a corporate entity himself and there's no narrative you can get behind.

Plus given the budget and the engine situation, their only opposition for the last few years have been Ferrari. Sure, they've done well to beat Ferrari, but coming first out of two is 50/50 anyway.

Money has always been important in F1 but changes to the pecking order are much less likely now than they were in the past so with all this inertia it's less impressive to stay at the top.

[BuddyHolly]

There is a good case for him, he'd certainly be in my top five.

 

Off-topic but is there any thread on the boards about why Tyrell never reached the success it had with JYS again? They were still winning races into the 1980s, I find it and Brabham's fall from grace quite hard to figure out.

 

Watkins Glen 73 pretty much was a hammer blow for the team, their star driver retired and his replacement was killed.   Although their replacements were 'reasonable' in 74, the car was not designed for them and they really struggled with it.  Although there was a few highlights, the team was never really the same ever again imo.

[SenorSjon]

Bernie is the only one who ended up richer then he begun?

[Sterzo]

Watkins Glen 73 pretty much was a hammer blow for the team, their star driver retired and his replacement was killed.   Although their replacements were 'reasonable' in 74, the car was not designed for them and they really struggled with it.  Although there was a few highlights, the team was never really the same ever again imo.

Scheckter was a World Champion in the making, and we don't really know how good Cevert might have become. The contemporary talk of him being a Stewart replacement always struck me as optimistic. Surely the problem at Tyrrell was they never had the depth of engineering expertise to sustain innovation year in year out. What they achieved with limited resources as a team in a timber yard was remarkable, but that was the extent of it.
 

[BRG]

The real problem is that Wolff isn't British.

He is married to a Scotswoman though, so that's alright.

 

Bernie is the only one who ended up richer then he begun?

Ron Dennis and Sir Frank Williams seem to have done OK given that both started with pretty much nothing.  Even Bernie didn't make that much out of being a team principal, it was owning the F! rights that let him gouge squillions out of the sport.

[Mohican]

Rightly or wrongly, I have not considered Sir Frank the real team principal of Williams for several years now; surely it has to be Claire Williams who has to be seen as such. This means that Wolff is the only (well, 30% apparently) other remaining TP who is also a (part) team owner.

The likes of Enzo Ferrari, Colin Chapman, Guy Ligier, Jack Oliver, Ron Dennis and many others have long since disappeared - and I think that the distinction between team owners and team principals is not correctly considered or understood; possibly not even by the FIA or FOM.

 

Messrs Abiteboul, Binotto, Brown/Seidel, Horner, Steiner, Szafnauer, Tost, Vasseur and indeed Wolff are all employees and answerable to their corporate reporting lines. This is not always considered by the media; journalists tend to think that all these individuals make decisions completely independently, which is surely not the case.

[Pimpwerx]

I was a fan of the Todt and Brawn Ferraris, but I have to tip my hat to Toto. He is a pro's pro at this job, and has been the symbol of sustained excellence in F1. The start of their run began with a dominating engine, but the team has since shifted to having a dominant aero/mech package, with an engine that is tuned for collecting points in races. There have been multiple regulation changes, and the team has continued to be the best. When they start the season at a disadvantage, they've shown relentless in-season development that always closes the gap. They haven't had bad fallings out with any drivers, and Toto might have managed 2 top drivers in Nico and Lewis better than any principle before him. It wasn't always pretty, but Lewis and Nico survived as teammates through many years of bad blood. 

 

Not much else I can say for Toto. He's done a phenomenal job.

[PlatenGlass]

The real problem is that Wolff isn't British.

Haha - It's like the "reason" Nelson Piquet isn't in everyone's all-time top 10 is that he went up against Nigel Mansell in the 80s and the British press didn't like him.

No and no.

[Branislav]

Colin Chapman

 

 

The Englishman, founder of Lotus, was not only a winning manager, but one of the minds that helped to overturn and modernize the history of Formula 1

 

Thirteen world titles (seven manufacturers and six drivers) conquered in 15 years, between 1963 and 1978, are not enough to define the greatness in Colin Chapman 's Formula 1 history . The English engineer born in Richmond, Surrey on May 19, 1928 and passed away on December 16, 1982, was one of the iconic figures of sport, creator of one of the most legendary and successful teams ever, the Lotus , founded in 1958 and survived 12 years after the death of its creator, before disappearing definitively in 1994. Jim Clark (twice), Graham Hill, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi and Mario Andretti were the names that reached the glory with Chapman's team rainbow.

 

Despite appearing eight years after Ferrari, Lotus, in the midst of the Chapman era, was the most successful team in F1 history . Able to hold the most victories in the championship from February '73 to September '74 and then still in cohabitation with the 'red' during the 1978 season. Until the disappearance of the ingenious engineer no one has been able to do better than the Lotus, triumphant in 72 GPs between 1958 and 1982, more than any other team, moreover in the most balanced time in the history of this sport. Chapman's greatness, even more than in the champions he managed to bring to success, not only in F1 as he also won at Indy with Clark in '65, however, lies in the technological innovations brought to the track.

 

The first to make an epoch was probably the Lotus 25 , the first to use a monocoque frame, which brought Clark the 1963 title, while the 1965 one would arrive with the '33'. In the middle, an emblematic season of the only real, big and dangerous problem of the Lotus branded Chapman: reliability . In 1964 Clark won all three races he ended, but in the other seven he was forced to retire due to various technical problems, thus losing a championship that he would otherwise have won. Then came, among many others, the '49', the '72', and the '79', the last world champion car for Chapman thanks to the Andretti-Peterson couple, who introduced the effect on soil in Formula 1 .

 

The cars created by the legendary English genius, however, are also linked to enormous regulatory disputes , such as those that involved the Lotus 88 with the ingenious double-frame system, and tragic events . Under the direction of Chapman, at the wheel of his Lotus, in fact, several drivers lost their lives, including Jochen Rindt, who was posthumously assigned the title of 1970, and Ronnie Peterson, vice-champion behind his companion Andretti in the year of his death , 1978. Chapman thus remains the strongest symbol of a different way of running, not necessarily better or worse than today, but certainly epic and innovative, thinking above all of those following his example who have learned to exploit the gray areas of the regulations .

 

https://www.formulap...ndt-474743.html

 

Translated from italian

Edited by Branislav, 16 January 2020 - 14:00.

[kumo7]

Seconded, tho with other reasons.

[PlatenGlass]

Are these your own biographies, Branislav, or are you copying them from somewhere? And what's with the random bolded bits?

[Branislav]

Are these your own biographies, Branislav, or are you copying them from somewhere? And what's with the random bolded bits?

c/p

[PayasYouRace]

c/p

 

Could you please add links to the originals? Plagiarism isn't something we want here.

[Branislav]

Could you please add links to the originals? Plagiarism isn't something we want here.

No problem but this is translated from italian from this website https://www.formulap...sport/formula-1

 

And I never said it was mine

[garoidb]

Haha - It's like the "reason" Nelson Piquet isn't in everyone's all-time top 10 is that he went up against Nigel Mansell in the 80s and the British press didn't like him.

No and no.

 

There are a number of reasons, not least that there are more and more candidates all the time. Piquet, Prost and Lauda developed similar approaches to campaigning* through their careers (overlapping each others careers and covering a particular period of F1 history). I would look at where people place all three of those, rather than just Nelson. As it happens, Mansell was also a team-mate of Prost. How did that go in the British press?

 

* For example, even though he had no technical problems, Piquet dropped back from a solid lead in the 1983 South African Grand Prix to maximise his chances of finishing the race and winning the WDC. This allowed his team-mate to win the race. Would Mansell have done that, or Senna? How about Prost or Lauda?

[shure]

There are a number of reasons, not least that there are more and more candidates all the time. Piquet, Prost and Lauda developed similar approaches to campaigning* through their careers (overlapping each others careers and covering a particular period of F1 history). I would look at where people place all three of those, rather than just Nelson. As it happens, Mansell was also a team-mate of Prost. How did that go in the British press?

 

* For example, even though he had no technical problems, Piquet dropped back from a solid lead in the 1983 South African Grand Prix to maximise his chances of finishing the race and winning the WDC. This allowed his team-mate to win the race. Would Mansell have done that, or Senna? How about Prost or Lauda?

Piquet had a tremendous racing brain and was a very wily operator.  He was always calculating exactly what he needed to do to maximise his results.  His reputation suffered terribly after 1987 but many people seem to either forget or otherwise overlook the massive accident he suffered that year which by his own admission affected him greatly.  Although short on spectacle I actually think his title that year was a very impressive achievement given that he was visiting hospitals almost on a weekly basis and had lost most of his depth perception for a good while.  To me it shows just how good he was that he still won the title with that considerable handicap.  I think he was a lot better than many give him credit for.

[JordanIreland]

I largely agree with this. I watched the documentary about him on the BBC recently, and I don't think it paints him in a good light.

Totally agree, while I’m a Williams fan, any of the Williams documentaries have never painted Frank in the best light.

Edited by JordanIreland, 16 January 2020 - 14:23.

[Marklar]

No problem but this is translated from italian from this website https://www.formulap...sport/formula-1

And I never said it was mine

Unless stated otherwise I would always assume that anything anyone writes here are their own thoughts

[Zoe]

 

 

Not much else I can say for Toto. He's done a phenomenal job.

 

Having a huge team avaliable with (probably by far) the biggest budget certainly helps as well.

 

As for managing Rosberg and Hamilton, well, that did not run very well at times, didn't it?

[Branislav]

Christian Horner

 

 

The 46-year-old Englishman has transformed a modest group center team into a team capable of dominating F1 for four years, becoming a permanent part of the sport's elite

The 'Red Bull phenomenon' is and remains one of the most particular events in the entire history of Formula 1. A team sponsored by an energy drink brand that not only wins in a few years (that was also successful at Benetton, more brand certainly not motorsport) but it is permanently positioned at the top, becoming one of the reference points of world motorsport. In 2005, when Dietrich Mateschitz bought the Jaguar F1 to transform it into Red Bull Racing, few could have predicted that the boy who ran the hut, Christian Horner , a 32-year-old with good hopes who in 1997 had founded an F3000 team, would have just become 10 years later one of the most successful managers in F1 history.

 

Thinking about it, Horner's story is perfect for a team like Red Bull. Young, ambitious and intelligent, the Englishman began his motorsport career at 19 as a driver. It achieves good results in Formula Renault, Formula 3 and F3000. The turning point of his life, however, came in 1997, when he created Arden International, just 24 years old, to race in the F3000. This is the context in which he comes into contact with Helmut Marko , former pilot owner of the RSM Marko, a team that in 1999 will become Red Bull Junior Team. Horner takes little to understand that he is worth more as a manager than as a pilot and in a few years he hangs his helmet on the nail. From behind a desk he transforms Arden into one of the teams to beat, tightening relationships with Marko more and revealing an exceptionaltalent scout .

 

When the powerful Austrian brand decides to implement the big leap, the choice is quickly made: Horner becomes team principal, Marko a sort of special consultant. Purists don't like the idea and mock the new team, but Mateschitz, Marko and Horner have the long run vision. Year after year Red Bull grows. The first points arrived (fourth place with David Coulthard in the first ever race, in Australia in 2005), then the first podiums (always the Scotsman in Monaco in 2006). Then, above all, the best designer out there comes to the tune of millions: Adrian Newey . In 2006, a satellite stable, the Toro Rosso, also emerged from the ashes of Minardi. Paradoxically, in 2008 it found the victory before the 'parent company', with Sebastian Vettelin Monza. Just the young German becomes the emblem of the functionality of the Red Bull nursery. The eyes of Horner and Marko and the huge amount of money available allow Red Bull to create an Academy.

 

Horner uses the regulatory change of 2009 to bring the team closer to the top and with the Vettel-Webber duoin the car the successes begin to arrive. Since 2010, Red Bull has simply been the car to beat. The English manager, at 37, finds himself managing a very young team that plays world titles against giants such as Ferrari and McLaren and which, moreover, has two drivers who do not collaborate. Here is perhaps the main masterpiece of Horner, who despite some spectacular accident (Turkey 2010) manages to manage the relationship between Vettel and Webber keeping both in contention for the world championship. The failure to exchange positions between the two in Brazil, which could have brought the Australian to -1 from Fernando Alonso in view of the last race, is derided by everyone. But in the end, with a little luck, he's right. Sebastian Vettel, the 'designated' driver, wins the world championship in Abu Dhabi, after the cruel and ingenious 'love' pulled by the unaware Webber.

 

The rest is history. After the golden four-year period 2010-2013, Red Bull tries to adapt to the new regulations by starting from the young: Daniel Ricciardo spodesta Vettel, who emigrates to Ferrari. Then comes Max Verstappen , also a future designated champion, around which Horner and Marko build the team and for which they venture a move that is currently paying off: abandoning Renault engines in order to have a dedicated manufacturer, Honda. In conclusion, the numbers remain. Since Horner and Red Bull are in F1 the team has been the second most successful , behind only Mercedes. Not bad for the youngest ex-team principal in history and for an energy drink brand.

 

https://www.formulap...rko-474185.html

 

Translated from italian

[MaxisOne]

Jean Todt / Ross Brawn / Ron Dennis / Toto Wolff

Christian Horner (Annoying to me but i must respect the fact that he is a pretty good TP)

[JordanIreland]

Ken Tyrrell easily number 1 for me

Since you don't need to win races or titles to be a great team principle (you mainly need money for that and being a great team principe is having great human qualities to manage your staff and motivate them) I would certainly also mention Giancarlo Minardi

Enzo Ferrari is not a great team principle at all in my book: extremely autocratic (and an admirer of Musolini, same can be said of Henry Ford who's biggest hero was Adolf Hitler), he behaved like he was some kind of godfather

Very fair point. As a true independent team, Ken did work miracles and achieved some amazing results. Some of the drivers and engineers that worked for Tyrrell is equally impressive.

Tyrrell brought a lot to F1 and F1 is much the richer for it. A nice bio/documentary of Tyrrell: https://youtu.be/9Gr74hDpD7c

Plus a funny advertisement with Ken: https://youtu.be/aP26JGLBtvE

Edited by JordanIreland, 17 January 2020 - 13:52.

[Nathan]

I think you have Chapman, Ecclestone and you have Ron Dennis.  Those three not only developed consistent championship teams but launched international companies at the same time to leverage what they did in F1...2 of the 3 being very successful at it.  Honour mentions to Wolff, Todt, Briatore, Tyrrell and Minardi.

[Branislav]

Briatore: "Twice close to Ferrari"

 

 

The Piedmontese manager confessed to having touched the landing in Maranello several times in the past

 

His figure has often generated in the past - and in some ways continues to do so - very strong provocations and discussions, but the successes achieved in Formula 1 make Flavio Briatore a still very strong personality inside the paddock. His managerial skills and his charismatic leadership have often attracted Ferrari too , without ever concluding an agreement with the Piedmont manager.

 

In a recent interview with Autosprint , Briatore confessed to having been very close to a landing in Maranello twice , even if for various reasons it never went well.

 

“The first time that I was really one step away from Ferrari was between 1994 and 1995 - explained Briatore - I spoke seriously with Dr. Umberto Agnelli , but I was too busy with Benetton, with whom I also had a 30% stake in the team. In more recent times I spoke instead with Luca Cordero di Montezemolo , when he was president of Ferrari, but we were unable to find a quadra ".

 

The entrepreneur from Cuneo then stressed that there will be no active return to Formula 1 in the near future: “F1 is like chickenpox, the virus catches you only once. I spent many years there, I won what others have never won, I had fun. "

https://www.formulap...olo-476956.html

 

Translated