12 replies to this topic

[HarmonicBlade1]

I decided to go through all my qualifying videos for 2007 to refresh my memory and quickly realised that we've all been duped by this narrative that Alonso and Hamilton alternated who would burn off an extra lap in qualifying after Monaco, or that there was sny kind of set agreement in place at all. The truth is that there was no set order and the two drivers appeared to (generally) be left to thier own devices to settle it out on track for themselves until Hungary.

I made some notes by basically looking out for who started ahead in q3, if they switched positions and if any of the 2 drivers did more fuel burning laps than the other before a flying lap. What I've found is that Alonso tended to wait in the garage whereas Hamilton would be out as soon as possible at the pit exit waiting to go out. Don't let this fool you though because Alonso would still generally burn off the same amount of fuel as Hamilton before pitting for fresh tyres to start a flying lap.

Australia - Hamilton is first as they wait for q3, they burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap.

Malaysia - Hamilton is first but lets Alonso through. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap. Interestingly McLaren use 2 separate pit slots for them instead of just the one, which is a great way to eliminate double stacking. Question: So what was the point of Hamilton letting Alonso through? They still burnt off the same amount of fuel.

Bahrain - Hamilton first from pit exit. Alonso sits longer, about 17s in garage, before coming out. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap.

Spain - Hamilton first. Alonso again is in no rush and waits in garage. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap.

Monaco - Hamilton first. Alonso hangs back again. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap.  With about 6:30 left I think they both do another fuel burn lap before inlap and pit for final flying lap with about 3:30 left.

Canada - This is supposed to be the race where they started alternating fuel burn laps. Hamilton first as usual. Alonso hangs back again as usual. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap, same as usual.

USA - This is the first race that one of the McLaren drivers burns off more fuel than the other. Hamilton first in pitlane. Alonso hangs back again. This time Hamilton stays out on track and does an extra lap whereas Alonso doesn't and pits first. Hamilton circulates and enters the pits as Alonso leaves with about 6 mins left.

France -  Hamilton let's Alonso through but then Alonso has an issue and pits before completing a lap and retires from quali. Notedly Hamilton stayed with him and then stayed with the Ferrari's, who were just in front of the two McLaren's on track. Hamilton is even told by his engineer that Alonso has an engine problem, to continue as planned, and to push so he can get an extra lap in. He does pit on same lap as the Ferrari's which suggests he would have done the same amount of fuel burn laps as Alonso, had Alonso not been forced to park his car in the garage. It would have been much like Malaysia where Hamilton let Alonso through but still burnt off the same amount of fuel before pitting to start a flying lap.

GB - Hamilton first in the pitlane but this time Alonso tries to launch away and get in front of Hamilton. The two McLaren's race for position but Hamilton stays ahead and Alonso eventually gives up.  Alonso appears on screen with about 5:43 left and he is 30s into his first flying lap. This is because Hamilton stayed out and burnt off an extra lap of fuel and we next see Hamilton on screen with about 4:25 left and he's 33s into his first flying lap. Question: Why was Alonso trying to race Hamilton if they had a prearranged agreement going on? Because clearly they didn't have any kind of arrangement at all, that's why.

Europe - This is race before the infamous Hungary incident so we would expect that Hamilton was given some sort of priority here which led to Alonso being so infuriated in Hungary but that is not the case at all. Hamilton's first as usual. Alonso hangs back in garage for quite a while, about a minute, but he ultimately pits on same lap as Hamilton, same as usual. Hamilton pits with about 8:30 left. Alonso pits with about 7:30 left. Hamilton then ends up in the barriers because of a wheel gun failure.

Hungary - Hamilton is first and Alonso isn't fast enough to keep up with him, despite Hamilton being ordered to let Alonso through. Alonso pits first while behind Hamilton who stays out another lap. Question here is why didn't Alonso just burn off the same amount of fuel like they'd been doing for most of the season? Anyway, Alonso is held in the pits for quite a while and can be seen making hand gestures towards the pitwall, and, by the time he leaves the pits, Hamilton has circulated and enters the pits. They both do their first flying laps before reentering the pits for the final run and we all know what happens next.  At this point I think Hamiltons comments, that can be found on the FIA season review, seem pretty relevant. He claims that the night before qualifying McLaren came up to him and told him to let Alonso go ahead for q3 and its also pretty clear that Hamilton didn't understand why, which, again, makes it obvious that they did not have an agreement to alternate who goes first after Monaco. McLaren suddenly decided to give that order to Hamilton on the Friday night before Hungary qualifying, for whatever reason.

Turkey - Do the drivers now start alternating fuel burn laps? Nope. Hamilton first. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap, same as usual. Ted notes that the McLaren drivers have their own pit slots (like in Malaysia).

Italy - Hamilton first. Alonso hangs way back again. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap, same as usual.

Belgium - Hamilton first. Alonso hangs back. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap, same as usual.

Japan - Wet. Hamilton first. This time Alonso doesn't wait so long. Hamilton pits first with 9:15 left. Alonso stays out for 3 extra laps, pits with less than 5 mins left, leaves pits with 4:20 left. Hamilton pits again with 2:29 remaining. Hamilton started his final lap about 53s behind Alonso starting his.

China - Hamilton first, Alonso just behind him and chases close. Hamilton pits first quite early with just under 10 mins left. Alonso pits next lap with about 8:25 left. Hamilton then stays out another fuel burn lap before inlap which means the 2 drivers burn off same amount before final flying lap.

Brazil - Hamilton first. Alonso right behind him but again Hamilton stays in front as Ferrari pressures Alonso. They burn off the same amount of fuel and pit on the same lap for fresh tyres to start first flying lap, same as usual.

Hamilton may have been given a team order in Hungary but the widespread outrage about him breaking a pre arranged agreement to alternate doing an extra fuel burn lap, or at least, who goes out first for qualifying, couldn't be any further off the mark.

Hamilton went out first all the time and it didn't even matter most of the time because they'd still burn off the same amount of fuel as each other.

[RPM40]

I like that rather than every thread devolving into arguing about Hamilton and Alonso 2007, we're just diving straight in

[New Britain]

Before you come to any conclusions based on your own analysis of old videos, you should probably read The Mechanic by Marc Priestley, who was Chief Mechanic for McLaren's T-car in Hungary '07. On pages 177-182 he goes over the entire incident. As a team insider and witness, he was better placed than any of us to comment on what happened.

 

Highlights of Priestley's account:

"At the Hungaroring it was Fernando's turn to go first on the clear track, his turn to try for that extra lap of fuel."

"Lewis, controversially aided by his race engineers and mechanics, broke from the agreed plan...."

"There was lots of frantic radio traffic. Some people just assumed that it was a mistake and that Lewis would move over, allowing Fernando to pass as they got going, but confusion turned to frustration as the lights went green and Lewis sped off into the distance. He'd gone rogue."

"Lewis wasn't playing the game...Instead he'd blatantly ignored numerous clear and increasingly stern instructions from the pit wall to switch positions."

 

I think it is pretty clear from that whether there was a team rule and whether Lewis broke it.

[HarmonicBlade1]

Before you come to any conclusions based on your own analysis of old videos, you should probably read The Mechanic by Marc Priestley, who was Chief Mechanic for McLaren's T-car in Hungary '07. On pages 177-182 he goes over the entire incident. As a team insider and witness, he was better placed than any of us to comment on what happened.

Highlights of Priestley's account:
"At the Hungaroring it was Fernando's turn to go first on the clear track, his turn to try for that extra lap of fuel."
"Lewis, controversially aided by his race engineers and mechanics, broke from the agreed plan...."
"There was lots of frantic radio traffic. Some people just assumed that it was a mistake and that Lewis would move over, allowing Fernando to pass as they got going, but confusion turned to frustration as the lights went green and Lewis sped off into the distance. He'd gone rogue."
"Lewis wasn't playing the game...Instead he'd blatantly ignored numerous clear and increasingly stern instructions from the pit wall to switch positions."

I think it is pretty clear from that whether there was a team rule and whether Lewis broke it.

I've been a long time admirer of Priestley for years, going all the way back to his anonymous blogs, so of course I have both the written and audio versions of his book. My favourite part is where he clarifies how Alonso's mechanics and engineers were 100% loyal to him all year long, which rubbishes the narrative that the team was against him, even after his falling out with Ron Dennis. In fact, according to Marc, every mechanic and engineer wanted to work on Alonso's car, not Hamilton's, before the season started, for the obvious reason that Alonso was the proven champion with years of experience compared to Hamilton who was a relative nobody at that time but please do continue to boast about a book that has been easily available to read for years now.

You obviously didn't read my post. I did not say Hamilton didn't ignore a team instruction, quite the opposite in fact. What I have done is pointed out the flaw in the narrative that they alternated doing an extra fuel burn lap after Monaco. Marc says it was Alonso's turn which goes with what I said about Hamilton being instructed the night before Hungary qualifying. He did not say they alternated fuel burn laps and if he has ever said this then his memory must be slightly foggy on the subject.

I suggest you actually read my comment and if you disagree please feel free to familiarize yourself with every qualifying session, like i have done, and point out where I've made any mistakes. Pretty sure I haven't though.

Edited by HarmonicBlade1, 16 December 2019 - 10:57.

[New Britain]

I've been a long admirer of Priestley for years, going all the way back to his anonymous blogs, so of course I have both the written and audio versions of his book. My favourite part is where he clarifies how Alonso's mechanics and engineers were 100% loyal to him all year long, which rubbishes the narrative that the team was against him even after his falling out with Ron Dennis. In fact, according to Marc, every mechanic and engineer wanted to work on Alonso's car, not Hamilton's, before the season started, for the obvious reason that Alonso was the proven champion with years of experience compared to Hamilton who was a relative nobody at that time but please do continue to boast about reading a book that has been easily available to read for years now.

You obviously didn't read my post. I did not say Hamilton didn't ignore a team instruction, quite the opposite in fact. What I have done is pointed put the flaw in the narrative that they alternated doing an extra fuel burn lap after Monaco. Marc says it was Alonso's turn which goes with what I said about Hamilton being instructed the night before Hungary qualifying. He did not say they alternated fuel burn laps and if he ever has said this his memory must be slightly foggy on the subject.

I suggest you actually read my comment and if you disagree please feel free to watch every qualifying session and point out where I've made any mistakes. Pretty sure I haven't though.

"Hamilton may have been given a team order in Hungary but the widespread outrage about him breaking a pre arranged agreement to alternate doing an extra fuel burn lap, or at least, who goes out first for qualifying, couldn't be any further off the mark."

 

So you are saying that the widespread outrage - or at least the outrage felt by the McLaren team - was for another reason?

[HarmonicBlade1]

"Hamilton may have been given a team order in Hungary but the widespread outrage about him breaking a pre arranged agreement to alternate doing an extra fuel burn lap, or at least, who goes out first for qualifying, couldn't be any further off the mark."

So you are saying that the widespread outrage - or at least the outrage felt by the McLaren team - was for another reason?

Dude. Stop trolling. I already pointed out to you that I did not contradict Priestley saying that it was Hamilton's turn. I even stated in my original comment that Hamilton was given a team order the night before Hungary and he explains as much in the FIA season review, which I can link if you like.

I'll say it again. I have rewatched every qualifying session and noticed that they did not take it in turns burning off an extra lap of fuel after Monaco. Please fee free to rewatch them yourself and then get back to me.

It's all there. They did not alternate fuel burn laps after Monaco

[shure]

Jeez, man, you seem to be getting a little touchy just because someone is contradicting you.  No need to take it quite so personally.

 

Priestly says it was Alonso's "turn" to go first, which implies that there is an agreement to alternate.  Otherwise he probably would have used different terminology such as "it was decided Alonso should go first," or a variation on that.  He also says that Lewis broke from the agreed plan.  How far back that agreement goes is pretty irrelevant - the salient point is that it was there and it was broken.  So I don't agree we've really been duped

[HarmonicBlade1]

Jeez, man, you seem to be getting a little touchy just because someone is contradicting you. No need to take it quite so personally.

Priestly says it was Alonso's "turn" to go first, which implies that there is an agreement to alternate. Otherwise he probably would have used different terminology such as "it was decided Alonso should go first," or a variation on that. He also says that Lewis broke from the agreed plan. How far back that agreement goes is pretty irrelevant - the salient point is that it was there and it was broken. So I don't agree we've really been duped

He didn't contradict me.

Lol. What is so difficult to understand about my post? There was no set order before Hungary. In fact, at the race before Hungary, in Germany, they both burnt off the same amount of fuel as each other and the instruction for Hamilton to let Alonso through in Hungary appears to have came on the Friday night, before Hungary qualifying, just like Hamilton says on the FIA season review.


Please feel free to watch every qualifying session and point out if I've made any mistakes. Cheers.

I'm done responding to anyone who hasn't caught up with every qualifying session in 2007.

Edited by HarmonicBlade1, 16 December 2019 - 11:35.

[shure]

He didn't contradict me.

Lol. What is so difficult to understand about my post? There was no set order before Hungary. In fact, at the race before Hungary, in Germany, they both burnt off the same amount of fuel as each other and the instruction for Hamilton to let Alonso through in Hungary appears to have came on the Friday night, before Hungary qualifying, just like Hamilton says on the FIA season review.


Please feel free to watch every qualifying session and point out if I've made any mistakes. Cheers.

I'm done responding to anyone who hasn't caught up with every qualifying session in 2007.

so you're not interested in a discussion, but you just want everyone to praise you for a wonderful job you've done.  I gotcha.

 

For the record I don't think it's relevant how many races they agreed to alternate on.  From memory I don't think anything was claimed to have been put in place until after Monaco, anyway.  So I don't see what this thread is looking to achieve since the only relevant points are a) that they did have an agreement to take turns by Hungary and b) that Hamillton broke that agreement.  Both of which are confirmed by Priestly so it's pretty much a slam dunk.

 

Nothing to see here, in other words

[Sash1]

I'm not going to watch 12 year old qualifications to start an argument. Kimi champion is all I remember and that is enough.

[New Britain]

Dude. Stop trolling. I already pointed out to you that I did not contradict Priestley saying that it was Hamilton's turn. I even stated in my original comment that Hamilton was given a team order the night before Hungary and he explains as much in the FIA season review, which I can link if you like.

I'll say it again. I have rewatched every qualifying session and noticed that they did not take it in turns burning off an extra lap of fuel after Monaco. Please fee free to rewatch them yourself and then get back to me.

It's all there. They did not alternate fuel burn laps after Monaco

I am not disputing what you saw on the videos (which I can assure you I am not going to watch merely to satisfy an internet forum disagreement).

Rather, I am disputing your surmise that, if I may paraphrase, "the public outrage that Hamilton broke a team rule could not be farther off the mark".

If you had come on here and said, "This is odd. Everyone thinks that McLaren had this rule, but I have scrutinised all the videos...." and left it at that, it would have been one thing. Because you chose to go on and assert that the consensus that Hamilton had violated a team order was quite mistaken, that takes your argument to another place.

 

It was painfully obvious at the time that Ron Dennis was livid with Hamilton for blatantly breaking team orders. It was equally obvious that Alonso over-reaction related to something that Hamilton had done; it was not merely a figment of Alonso's imagination.

Priestley's account - in addition to all the coverage at the time - has made clear that Hamilton was in the wrong about something he did in Hungary 2007 Q3.

 

You can argue as you have done that the team did not appear to practise alternate fuel-burning priority. If you are going to argue that Hamilton should not be criticised for his actions in Hungary, however, you are going to need different evidence.

[Myrvold]

I'm done responding to anyone who hasn't caught up with every qualifying session in 2007.

You have misunderstood the point of the forum I feel.

 

Also, going off the mentioned book. Does "his turn" mean there is a set rythm to things, or just that, well. It is his turn?
From how it seems to me, Alonso - as the established guy had dibs on whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed and all realized that the new kid was way closer to Alonso than expected, things were gradually tightened up at McLaren.

 

Anyway, that's 2007 done. Now we need a 94, 97, Merc 2016 and a Senna v Prost thread and the F1 off season will be complete!

Edited by Myrvold, 16 December 2019 - 11:55.

[midgrid]

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