42 replies to this topic

[Ben1445]

Main story here:

https://www.racefans...per-motorsport/

Could electric karting (or even electric motorsport full stop) be a major disruptor for grassroots racing?

We all know motorsport is expensive to get into at every level. That severely limits both levels of participation and the diversity of participants.

Electric powertrains are cheaper to run and maintain. Could we see grassroots racing re-invigorated by electrification?

[BobbyRicky]

Only if he brings the white visor.

[Stephane]

There's been electric karts for years now, at least at rental level.

[Ben1445]

There's been electric karts for years now, at least at rental level.

That’s the point, at a rental level.

It’s the competition levels that are of interest here.

[Clatter]

Are there currently any racing series for this category or is this the first?

[Vielleicht]

The Deutsche Electro-Kart Meisterschaft (DEKM) started in 2018 and will update the machinery to a second generation for 2020.

 

I think it was only a matter of time before we saw another one appeaer.

[sgtkate]

Of relevance to the thread: https://www.redbull....art-runs-better

[Vielleicht]

A lot of strong, emotive language in the launch for this about meritocracy and democratising racing. They’re obviously hoping to make a bit of a splash as a rebellious movement of sorts, a bit like W Series.

I’ll be interested to hear what kind of set up they’ll have to achieve their aims here.

[Ben1445]

A lot of strong, emotive language in the launch for this about meritocracy and democratising racing. They’re obviously hoping to make a bit of a splash as a rebellious movement of sorts, a bit like W Series.

I’ll be interested to hear what kind of set up they’ll have to achieve their aims here.

I thought it was interesting that they cited Lewis Hamilton's call for racing to be cheaper. Rob Smedley is a popular and well recognised industry name to have on the engineering side. Given Hamilton's comments on racing's financial accessibility and a recent sustainable streak in him I can't help but wonder if he would ever lend his support to an initiative like this. 

 

Of relevance to the thread: https://www.redbull....art-runs-better

A good overview.. thanks!

[loki]

That’s the point, at a rental level.

It’s the competition levels that are of interest here.

They’ve been competing over here on regional levels for nearly 20 years.

[Ben1445]

They’ve been competing over here on regional levels for nearly 20 years.

Please, tell me more... it’s the perfect thread for it!

Edited by Ben1445, 10 January 2020 - 18:24.

[wheadon1985]

Motorsport UK did release a tender for electric karts late last year.

https://www.motorspo...tender-process/

[loki]

Any of the electric karting places have leagues you can join.  Some of the places have a couple of locations in the area/region where they alternate between locations.

[Vielleicht]

Here's the website (compelte with slick 21st century start-up mission statements) for the 'Electroheads' group behind this series.
https://electroheads.com

 

Why is what they're doing different from before, might be what we want to ask... well...

"We’re growing a following by entertaining Gen Zs and Millennials on social media with content based on the thrill and joy of electric cars, skateboards, bikes, technology and more."
 
"We believe that the fastest kids – not the richest kids – should have the opportunity to race at the highest level."

"Electroheads Talent Academy will work to ensure talented youngsters get the opportunity to ascend the motorsports pyramid and prove their skills at higher levels - whether they’re classic single-seater racers or next-gen e-riders."

[Ben1445]

https://www.espn.co....iversity-racing

 

 

Smedley: "For the next generation of racers, the era of the petrolhead is coming to a close. The whole philosophy of the Electroheads group is to get digital natives to experience the unique awe of the electric revolution. As Lewis Hamilton himself said recently: racing has become too expensive and is not diverse enough. I totally agree. Through electrification we can change that. We will be the driving force to inspire, energise and thrill racers as they climb the ladder. It is cleaner, cheaper, faster and importantly, fairer."

 

"At Electroheads we know that electrification can be the vehicle for democratising motorsport and it starts at the grassroots and it starts today."

[TomNokoe]

Their Twitter account is awful.

[Fatgadget]

 Rob Smedly lost his credibility .....After I heard this from him....

 

Phillipe baby...

 

Fernando is faster than you!

 

[DS27]

Will electric karting be that much, if any cheaper than it is now. For example, even in RC racing the people that want to spend a lot of money buy a large amount of batteries, then test each one and cherry pick the best, so I assume something similar would happen. There will always be a way for money to buy an advantage.

 

Pretending electric power will suddenly make motorsport affordable is pie in the sky

[Peat]

All a bit pithy at this stage, I would have expected a glossy launch with a pricelist tbh. That's all the karting Dad's will want to know. 

 

"Pretending electric power will suddenly make motorsport affordable is pie in the sky" - Correct. If someone works out it's faster to buy a fresh battery pack for every race, they will. It will need to be controlled. 

 

[Vielleicht]

Reading what they’ve said, I think their logic in being cheaper in part comes from the ability to digitally control electric powertrains to ensure equal performance. I think their theory is that a standard control unit supplied by the championship and connected to race control would be able to ensure that all karts were delivering the same performance - torque curves, max power, discharge rates etc.

I don't think they plan to follow the traditional karting model at all. You could always have batteries (or the whole karts) centrally supplies and maintained by the series (which i think DEKM do?) and cut out the ‘karting dads’ who make the sport so expensive. In such a case, I do believe electric karts would probably be cheaper over the course of their useful life.

My question is what do they plan for the winners to do after leaving this new series? Go into regular karting? Into regular F4? ERA electric F4? Eventually into FE or do they not really care as long as they’ve made access to motorsport cheaper?

[Rydo]

Anything that can be done to lower costs in grass roots racing is to be encouraged and supported. Electric karts are OK and they're only going to get better as demand increases. I visit my local electric karting track once a month for an arrive and drive type session, nothing serious. They don't have any leagues or anything set up though a young drivers academy is due to start imminently.

Electric karts are OK. They handle differently due to full power being applied immediately with next to zero of the lag you'd get with a petrol kart. This leads to most of the lap being one continuous power slide. Electric karts may well harvest the next generation of rally driver!

[blackhand2010]

Electroheads sounds like a terrible early 90's Euro-rave combo.

[Ben1445]

Rob Smedley explaining the rationale behind this project... 

 

Edited by Ben1445, 16 January 2020 - 18:30.

[noikeee]

Electroheads sounds like a terrible early 90's Euro-rave combo.

Still a better premise for a movie than coneheads.

[Vielleicht]

Rather fun set of words from Smedly in that video I thought:

“They’re fast bits of kit but not only that, y’know, they don’t make a load of horrible noise, they accelerate much much faster, they’re more fun to drive. The first time we ran without proof of concept version for this bambino I actually saw a 7 year old doing spin turns when he got it wrong which is just incredible... and he got out the car and had this big beaming grin and he said ‘it’s like a formula One car!’”

Might be the first time I've seen the noise of any sort of petrol racing being actively described as a negative thing by someone in the industry.

 

Perhaps a shift in attitude is possible. Espeically when they sound more fun to drive compared to their equivalents.

Edited by Vielleicht, 17 January 2020 - 08:07.

[Thursday]

 

Might be the first time I've seen the noise of any sort of petrol racing being actively described as a negative thing by someone in the industry.

 

Exposing children to continuous load noises is not a great idea, developing bodies and all that, so less noise is a good thing in that respect.

The same for the lack of fumes. When I think of karting, especially indoor tracks, I can taste the 2-stroke.

[hansmann]

All a bit pithy at this stage, I would have expected a glossy launch with a pricelist tbh. That's all the karting Dad's will want to know. 

 

"Pretending electric power will suddenly make motorsport affordable is pie in the sky" - Correct. If someone works out it's faster to buy a fresh battery pack for every race, they will. It will need to be controlled. 

 

Amen .

 

Electric powertrains are ususally quite a bit more expensive to buy and maintain , especially in a racing application .

Not to mention the engine might be the least of their worries re. budgeting over a season .

 

The drivers will probably love the torque, though, must be fun .

[Ben1445]

Electric powertrains are ususally quite a bit more expensive to buy and maintain , especially in a racing application .
Not to mention the engine might be the least of their worries re. budgeting over a season .

So you disagree with Smedley’s claim that electric karting can be delivered more cheaply?

[Jazza]

So you disagree with Smedley’s claim that electric karting can be delivered more cheaply?

But how can it?

Take road cars for example. Electric cars and conventional cars are 90% the same. The only difference is what turns the wheels. Everything else from the seats to the stereo is the same between ICE and Electric vehicles. Despite this, electric cars are not cheaper than those running on fuel - and as batteries and Motors have been around since the 19th century - a sudden drop in price making then radically cheaper is unlikely.

The same issue with car racing. Electric race cars/karts still need a track to race on. Electric cars still need a chassis, wheels, etc. The cost of Insurance/liability isn’t going to get cheaper whether the kart is moved by electricity or petrol. So just like road cars, 90% of electric race cars and petrol race cars is the same cost.

So how can an electric motor and battery be that much cheaper than a kart ICE that it suddenly makes racing affordable?

Edited by Jazza, 22 January 2020 - 03:48.

[Vielleicht]

The economic advantage of an electric powertrain is said to lie in the operational costs. Electricity prices are much lower than equivalent fuel prices and maintenance demands are typically less than an ICE.

High purchasing costs have historically offset this advantage, but li-ion battery pack costs have dropped significantly in the last decade.

I also think what Smedley is saying is that ease of software control of the electric powertrain can keep all of the competing powertrains performing at very similar levels, removing advantages of finding ‘the one’ good engine or using higher budgets to buy fresh engines every race to gain an advantage.

I don’t know what the margin is myself but I believe the claim to be credible.

[pdac]

The economic advantage of an electric powertrain is said to lie in the operational costs. Electricity prices are much lower than equivalent fuel prices and maintenance demands are typically less than an ICE.

High purchasing costs have historically offset this advantage, but li-ion battery pack costs have dropped significantly in the last decade.

I also think what Smedley is saying is that ease of software control of the electric powertrain can keep all of the competing powertrains performing at very similar levels, removing advantages of finding ‘the one’ good engine or using higher budgets to buy fresh engines every race to gain an advantage.

I don’t know what the margin is myself but I believe the claim to be credible.

 

Isn't the difference in costs of the two 'fuels' largely to do with arbitrary pricing (and arbitrary decisions on what aspects should be costed)?

[hansmann]

So you disagree with Smedley’s claim that electric karting can be delivered more cheaply?

 

It will be more expensive, the question is who's footing the bill ?

 

If the racers or teams are provided significant support , such as free charging stations at race and testing tracks, a low cost battery replacement or rental program, plus technical support - then yes , it might bring down costs a bit .

 

If not, for individual drivers the costs of using electrical power will be significantly higher than using petrol engines .

And that's without considering the costs of buying a new Kart, and a currently non-existing used market for E-karts or any parts unique to them - which many entry level competitors depend on .

[ElectricBoogie]

Electric motors can be ultra reliable. The batteries are getting there. 
Top road cars get more cycles out of a battery than needed for dozens of seasons of racing. And power cells as used in hybrids can well be better due to low internal resistance and high cycle count.

Multiple battery developers are approaching real breakthroughs in both energy density (which also helps with /kWh cost a lot), cycle count (durability) and power density.

A well developed kart will not have to swap its motor (it should be sealed to prevent tinkering) for years. Especially next generation of cells will ensure decent comparative performance and crazy durability. A racing series could monitor them and work with a fleet of batteries for 5 years or so. Indeed, new batteries in the pool can be downtuned to not outperform the old and that's pretty awesome.

For zero battery rule karting batteries, could cost as much as whole F1 team budgets. And then some. So obviously, series will have to control that part. And why not standardize motors as well?
Something like throttle curves might be fun to leave to drivers or teams to play with, but in an easy and low cost way.

Heavier karts, are those not more like regular entry level race cars, where petrol cars are like F1 with downforce?

[Vielleicht]

Doesn’t this whole focus on democratising motorsport and meritocracy that they are putting out imply centrally provided, managed and prepared karts? An arrive-and-drive model if you will?

[Peat]

Yes, it would have to. There are already A&D options, now recognised by Motorsport UK, that have super competitive grids and some real talent at the top. But you are just defering the 'problem' a step further down the line where the step-up in budget is still unmanageable. 

Cynical me see's MSUK's recent 'championing' of grass roots motorsport like this as just a different way of generating income. They realise the pool of really wealthy folk spending thier money on motorsport is dwindling, so they'll happily just take Joe Bloggs' beer money now. 

[hansmann]

Doesn’t this whole focus on democratising motorsport and meritocracy that they are putting out imply centrally provided, managed and prepared karts? An arrive-and-drive model if you will?

 

You make it sound like a bad thing .

Sponsored or provided spec car(t)s are actually a good thing when a driver gets into the sport, it's not F1 .

[hansmann]

Electric motors can be ultra reliable. The batteries are getting there. 
Top road cars get more cycles out of a battery than needed for dozens of seasons of racing. And power cells as used in hybrids can well be better due to low internal resistance and high cycle count.

Multiple battery developers are approaching real breakthroughs in both energy density (which also helps with /kWh cost a lot), cycle count (durability) and power density.

A well developed kart will not have to swap its motor (it should be sealed to prevent tinkering) for years. Especially next generation of cells will ensure decent comparative performance and crazy durability. A racing series could monitor them and work with a fleet of batteries for 5 years or so. Indeed, new batteries in the pool can be downtuned to not outperform the old and that's pretty awesome.

For zero battery rule karting batteries, could cost as much as whole F1 team budgets. And then some. So obviously, series will have to control that part. And why not standardize motors as well?
Something like throttle curves might be fun to leave to drivers or teams to play with, but in an easy and low cost way.

Heavier karts, are those not more like regular entry level race cars, where petrol cars are like F1 with downforce?

 

I hope you are right, but I don't see any of it being true at the moment .

Battery tech isn't realy moving forward, and hasn't for years -  the current state is neither practical nor sustainable, and the improvment needs to be massive .

 

As for racing , Formula E is proving that E power can't be used properly in high tier motorsport .

Carting would be fine, though - it just has to be heavily subsidized to succeed .

[Ben1445]

There's been some movement on this as the karts in question had a bit of a launch today. 

 

https://www.skysport...st-f1-diversity

 

 

[dav115]

This is a great initiative provided they look at costs holistically (tyres, chassis, MSA license fees etc.) rather than just focusing on the powertrain. You would not believe how much is spent on tyres alone in competitive level karting. Likewise with chassis where the top guys will have differing stiffness chassis on standby depending on temperature/weather etc.

 

Re. his point on diversity I completely agree - repeating my post from 3 days ago in the WeRaceAsOne thread:

 

 

F1's lack of diversity stems from the fact that even the bottom of the ladder (karting) is insanely expensive, thanks in large part to governing bodies like the FIA, MSA etc. As an amateur competitor I've experienced this first hand - and I was competing well below the bottom rung of the ladder - and as we all know, wealth and diversity are inversely correlated.

 

Gone are the days when a Schumacher/Raikkonen could get a foothold on the ladder in domestic karting on a shoestring dad & son budget long enough to get spotted and funded further up the ladder. Hamilton himself would likely have capped out as a junior in karting had he not been backed after a chance introduction with Dennis. Case in point - look at the '90s S1 cadet (kids) karting champions  (http://www.karting.c...C/seeds90s.html) where you will see a number of future F1/indy drivers and an equal number of names you've never heard of who fizzled out. Guess which of those kids had deep family pockets (or McLaren backing) and which didn't?

[loki]

This is a great initiative provided they look at costs holistically (tyres, chassis, MSA license fees etc.) rather than just focusing on the powertrain. You would not believe how much is spent on tyres alone in competitive level karting. Likewise with chassis where the top guys will have differing stiffness chassis on standby depending on temperature/weather etc.

 

Re. his point on diversity I completely agree - repeating my post from 3 days ago in the WeRaceAsOne thread:

We’ve gotten those costs more under control here.  Tires are limited by the length of the event, provided by the promotor and serialized.  The big shifter org has MG make their own private label/formula tires.  You can only use that events tires and must use them for every session.  One day event one set.  Five day event three sets.  Chassis and engines are tagged and only allowed to compete with what you went through tech with.

[prty]

Rob Smedly lost his credibility .....After I heard this from him....

Phillipe baby...

Fernando is faster than you!

Actually that's probably the most credible thing he said

[Ben1445]

It should be blatantly obvious that motorsport has a problem with costs of entry, especially at a grassroots level. It absolutely needs to change. 

 

What I want to know about Rob Smedley's karting series is not only how it will minimise the costs of entry and keep a level playing field in competition (arguably the easy bits)... but also how it will elevate itself to a position which gives the winners a chance to move on up to bigger and better things. It's no use having a cheap, equal electric karting arrive-and-drive deal if the racing teams at the next levels aren't giving the winners the time of day. 

 

There are certainly ways to do that, but I think this initiative needs a lot more momentum than it currently has to pull that off, both in itself and in the industry as a whole. 

[Ben1445]