233 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

An interview from last season with Max Günther
https://katyfairman....ential-gunther/

Interesting reading now we know what happened with BMW and Santiago

[search]

The rest of the track was fine and even the T1-2 section delivered some excitement.

always looked a bit strange when they were driving on that colored part of the tarmac though. Maybe they can change that (in case there will ever be a race again in Santiago)

[NorwegianRudo]

Removing the Chicane was a perfect choice. 
Great racing into T8 all race long, and Formula E cars looks awesome at high speeds.

And this makes me optimistic & excited about Mexico City's revised layout, without the chicanes and with a faster Peraltada. 

 

 

Could be similar to this (that's from the event page)

 

 

 

That map doesn't match up with the description we've seen though.

[Vielleicht]

There’s some more Mexico circuit discussion in the Season 6 thread.

I’m really curious to find out what they’re going to do

[PayasYouRace]

Watched the BBC replay. Very good race. Maxi Gunther has won himself a new fan with that drive. Impressed at his measured drive, making clean moves when he needed to. Didn't get flustered when da Costa barged him out of the way near the end.

 

No idea what Vergne was thinking, doing laps with his damaged car. Stupid.

 

It was really good to see a race run through without interruption in a formula that allows races to develop. Looking forward to how this season develops. Shame about Sims going out, because I think Andretti BMW will be in a really strong position for the championship and it might pay off to score as many points as possible while their car is so strong. Bring on the rest of the season.

[SenorSjon]

Oh bloody hell! Saturday! FE races on Saturdays. 

 

Must be the primary reason I miss FE races. Yet people have the nerve to complain when a Grand Prix starts an hour later than they're used to. Oh well, I'll have to catch a reply somewhere.

 

So much this. I usually forget about it until I go through the channels and see the final 5 minutes with no clue what happened before. 

 

 

Still dislike the penalty bonanza after a race though. 

[Ben1445]

Been thinking...perhaps what is a bit different about Günther’s first win compared to some of the other first wins that we’ve seen in FE is that this is clearly something he has been aiming to do for a while. He was a test and reserve during Season 4 so aged 20 and doing pretty well in F3 he was already scoping out the series. He’s cited the close racing, his environmental concern and FE’s growth potential as his reasons for joining. He’s described his BMW drive and now his victory as “a dream come true”

There’s been some specific aspiration there which makes it quite special.

[balage06]

There’s been some specific aspiration there which makes it quite special.

 

You're trying too hard...

[Vielleicht]

Hmm.

Max is smart. He’s spotted an opportunity, gone for it and made it work. I don’t think it’s a massive stretch to say driving for BMW as a factory drive in a single seater championship is a dream come true for a Bavarian/Austrian driver, so I do think it is special for him. That can surely only add to the fabric of championship history that FE needs to add that ‘something special’ meaning to winning a race or title that other established series have by virtue of existing for longer. So I get Ben’s point.

We should remember though that it’s actually chronologically impossible for any of the current grid to have always dreamed specifically of being in FE since they were very young. Max, being the youngest, was 17 when it started. So that’s obviously going to take time to change if ever.

Edited by Vielleicht, 20 January 2020 - 10:48.

[Ben1445]

You're trying too hard...

I’m not going to apologise for having and expressing my passions. Bit of a shame if we are making people feel bad about doing that on a fan forum, isn’t it?

[maximilian]

Vergne had a fairly rough start to last season as well but pulled it back later on. But when FE is so much about consistent points finishes it’s definitely not a great start.

 

Fortunately, it's super close in the standings, so if JEV manages to win a couple races in the near future, he'll be right back in it again.  I think he WOULD have won this race, if not for the fender bender.  Commentators were like "this win is between Evans and Günther"... I was like... NUH-UH, JEV is in 3rd, gaining a second a lap!! 

 

BTW, how about Buemi with ZERO points... 

Edited by maximilian, 20 January 2020 - 15:31.

[Imateria]

I’m not going to apologise for having and expressing my passions. Bit of a shame if we are making people feel bad about doing that on a fan forum, isn’t it?

Thats not really what the criticism was about though. Your post comes across much more like you're trying to project your passion for the series onto others. There can be no doubt that Gunther is extremely happy with his first win in FE, but make no mistake every young driver on the single seater ladder aims solely for F1, at least at first and does not hold specific aspirations for FE. That, of course, does not mean that these drivers are not chuffed to bits to have a drive in this series, the same way drivers are always happy to get a professionaly drive in top teams in GT's, Sportscars, Indycar etc, even if it means their F1 dream is over.

 

Fortunately, it's super close in the standings, so if JEV manages to win a couple races in the near future, he'll be right back in it again.  I think he WOULD have won this race, if not for the fender bender.  Commentators were like "this win is between Evans and Günther"... I was like... NUH-UH, JEV is in 3rd, gaining a second a lap!! 

 

BTW, how about Buemi with ZERO points... 

And we also know from his team mate Da Costa that the Techeetahs were going so fast because they were completely disregarding battery temps, which left Da Costa a sitting duck on the last lap.

 

Yeah, Buemi on a fat doughnut after 3 races is a real shock though.

Edited by Imateria, 20 January 2020 - 19:04.

[Ben1445]

Thats not really what the criticism was about though. Your post comes across much more like you're trying to project your passion for the series onto others. There can be no doubt that Gunther is extremely happy with his first win in FE, but make no mistake every young driver on the single seater ladder aims solely for F1, at least at first and does not hold specific aspirations for FE. That, of course, does not mean that these drivers are not chuffed to bits to have a drive in this series, the same way drivers are always happy to get a professionaly drive in top teams in GT's, Sportscars, Indycar etc, even if it means their F1 dream is over.

Well that is not at all what I meant by it in the least. I’m looking at how Max, in his situation, has seemingly more methodically ‘gone after’ FE rather than some of the other drivers over the early years could be said to have fallen into it more by chance and lack of options. He’s happy to have made it to FE and is showing it and being proud of it (not pissed off he’s not in F1) and I think that is quite special.

I think the cynics still treat FE like it’s a last resort which no driver would ever choose when it’s obviously becoming a really desirable option.

[balage06]

Max has seemingly more methodically ‘gone after’ FE rather than some of the other drivers over the early years

 

But I found this statement far-fetched at the first time already. Günther's original dream was to become an F1 driver, just like everyone else's. But unfortunately he was in the right place at the wrong time, because he failed to make a truly great impression in Euro F3 while driving for the best team of the series, suffering pretty heavy defeats from both Stroll and then rookie Norris, while looking particularly unimpressive during the closing stages of his third campaign. At the time he readjusted his dream accordingly and became a reserve DTM driver for Mercedes, but then came the shock announcement mid-2017: Mercedes is about to leave DTM for FE. So as other Mercedes factory drivers, Günther faced with a choice between possible career in GT racing, or staying in single seaters, he did step up to F2, but only had the funding for an Arden drive which obviously resulted in failure, so he gave up mid-season and left with FE as the only remaining choice to impress Mercedes or another manufacturer enough to get a factory drive. But right now, of course he says he always wanted to drive here, remember when Alonso's childhood dream was to drive for Renault? And then McLaren?... Then Ferrari?... 

Edited by balage06, 21 January 2020 - 11:50.

[Risil]

I'm not sure where Formula E fits into the pecking order, but it must pay decently and keeps drivers visible and on the radar of racing teams in the wider world. No particular shame in that. I think most of the drivers in Super Touring in the 1990s weren't there because they'd dreamed of racing a Volvo saloon since they were 6 years old. But the good ones did their jobs with love and passion.

 

Haven't heard anyone make a serious case that it's a career dead-end for drivers. It's probably not a good path into F1 but neither is WEC, DTM or Indycar and that doesn't invalidate them.

 

Does Guenther really believe in FE's transformative ecological goals though? Dunno. I think Di Grassi probably does as he gives up a lot of time to show his face at awful black tie events when he could be playing Minecraft or endorsing watches.

[balage06]

 

I'm not sure where Formula E fits into the pecking order, but it must pay decently and keeps drivers visible and on the radar of racing teams in the wider world. No particular shame in that.

 

Of course not, I think the only "problem" with Formula E in that regard is that it's so different from every aspect, that it makes it almost irrelevant to other series. The races are held on exclusive city locations and FE can't really gain a foothold there, even existing events often get relocated or re-designed, so it doesn't give any relevant track knowledge. The car drives nothing like a classic single seater, it feels heavy and poorly balanced, it's like something between an LM prototype and a touring car, especially on street tyres and dirty street circuits. So even if I ignore the strange qualifying system which purposely creates randomness in the results, I don't think FE success is the best indicator of talent/potential regarding "classic" categories at the moment.

[maximilian]

Just because FE is doing things differently, doesn't mean it's not relevant.  On the contrary, we will probably see quite a lot of what FE does already make its way into the rest of the racing world in various different ways - particularly truly brilliant aspects such as the competitive customer team system, the reverse-qualifying that keeps things fresh while still ending up with the best guys topping the championship in the end in a thrilling finish, bringing racing TO the people instead of presuming they will come to IT, implementing a cost cap, de-emphasizing aerodynamic nonsense expense, taking measures to facilitate passing for more interesting races, etc.  (not to mention the inevitable disappearance of internal combustion engines soon to come)

 

FE has been a major disruptor in the racing world in a very short time, and its influence will only continue to grow.

Edited by maximilian, 21 January 2020 - 13:38.

[Vielleicht]

I genuinely believe FE is more of a respectable destination in its own right these days, and even more so when it’s becoming an FIA World Championship from next season. It’s not a step on the ladder. Why would you leave FE if you’ve got a seat in it right now? You’d need a VERY compelling opportunity in my opinion.

In terms of raw talent we still have this assumption that F1 has taken the absolute best and only the absolute best. Which is just not true. You need as much luck and money as you do talent to make it to F1. Many drivers in top level grids around the world should/could be inF1 but aren’t, including FE, and that’s just the way it is.

Another thing, whilst we’re talking about childhood dreams, is that opinions and dreams are not fixed. I was F1 obsessed in my teens. I couldn’t get enough of it, the idea of being in that paddock or even having a job in it was the best thought in the world. Now? I’m lukewarm on it. I follow FE the most closely and have a keen interest in the other EV series which are around the corner probably more than I do established combustion series. The same can surely happen for a driver and I do believe that it’s absolutely possible drivers like Max Günther will never look back and treat FE like he would have treated F1 until he retires from it.

[Ben1445]

But right now, of course he says he always wanted to drive here

He’s not said that. I didn’t either.

I just said it looks like he’s chosen FE and gone after actively pursuing a factory drive in FE (which you’ve also said he has done I might add) rather than being scouted, offered a seat and accepting it as he has no other option (which is what happened for the likes of early season drivers like Sam Bird).

All I ever meant by my damn stupid comment was that Max is one of those who has obviously chosen FE over some of the other options available to him and I think that is quite special. And given that, as Vielleicht says, none of the FE drivers are physically young enough to have always dreamed of being in FE I thought it was a given that that is not what I meant.

[RSRally]

Full Santiago race now on Youtube, best onboards here: https://youtu.be/bCrmpGzEQps

Observations:

- Those hairpins really are too tight still

- The BMW sounds very different onboard to the other cars, quieter, somehow more sophisticated and less whiny

[Ben1445]

I thought it was only the first of the two hairpins that was too tight, the second one seemed fine to me

[RSRally]

I thought it was only the first of the two hairpins that was too tight, the second one seemed fine to me

 

Fair shout.. there was enough width on the exit of the second one so it wasn’t a problem.

[PayasYouRace]

 when it’s becoming an FIA World Championship from next season.

 

I thought it always was. 

[NorwegianRudo]

Re-watched the race. Did Fanboost work more times in this race than in it's entire existence before this?

[ElectricBoogie]

Between drivers, FE might be spoken about with more respect than between fans. They know how good the drivers are, especially the ones off the back.
They here rumors about the wages paid and what drives are being sacrificed. Actual good money for a bunch of races, good global coverage, what's not to like?
Being a factory driver in the most expensive thing BMW does seems like valid dream territory. Most drivers get to be handed their behinds by someone in F3 and then accept that FE would be pretty swell to win at if backmarker in F1 is not an option perhaps.

Cool that Vandoorne is now leading the title race, a factory Mercedes driver. And Mercedes will soon again be paid to supply his former F1 employer. Should the driver pool in F1 dry up a bit, he just might be hired for some Pirelli tests and who knows. At least Toto got to see him at work a bit. All is not lost. Of curse if De Vries get the upper hand over him, the momentum shift to the reigning F2 champ who took a bit too long for an F1 drive but does not look out of place in FE with that serious competition at all.

How many pay drivers are there in FE (24 cars) vs F1 (20)? How did FE drivers do up to say F3? A few sports car greats in there.

[Ben1445]

For me (when they're not looking for the largest wallet) F1 driver programmes seem to have become obsessed with finding only prodigious talent. These days, if you are not F1 standard by your late teens then you might as well never be. They want 'the next' Vettel, Hamilton, Vertsappen and don't seem to look much further. That rules out anyone who perhaps started a little later in racing or perhaps takes a little longer to develop their talent. Meanwhile IndyCar accepted Pagenaud at the age of 28, with him going on to win a title at 32 and the Indy 500 at 35. Josef Newgarden entered IndyCar at 21 and took until the age of 26 to win a title. Now with Colton Herta and co they seems to be on the brink of a similar prodigious talent obsession themselves, so let's see how that goes. 

 

I've liked IndyCar and FE for not being so cut-throat about its drivers. I despise the elitist, blinkered treatment of anyone who didn't thrive in the needlessly brutal, teenage years of F1 selection programs as 'second rate' drivers. Plenty who aren't right for F1 at 17-19 years old will go on to be world class drivers in their own right (even good enough for F1 if it would get over itself) and they should get the respect they deserve. 

 

How many pay drivers are there in FE (24 cars) vs F1 (20)? How did FE drivers do up to say F3? A few sports car greats in there.

 

As far as anyone seems to be aware, all FE drivers are fully paid professionals. I'm not sure about F1. 

[Sterzo]

 

I've liked IndyCar and FE for not being so cut-throat about its drivers. I despise the elitist, blinkered treatment of anyone who didn't thrive in the needlessly brutal, teenage years of F1 selection programs as 'second rate' drivers. Plenty who aren't right for F1 at 17-19 years old will go on to be world class drivers in their own right (even good enough for F1 if it would get over itself) and they should get the respect they deserve. 

 

Methinks he doth protest too much. Most of the drivers who are in Formula E, Indycar and top level endurance racing tried to reach F1, but there are only a few vacancies each year. Hence the ruthless selection. The drivers who've diverted to those other categories definitely deserve respect in their own right, and there's no need to pretend they're a match for Hamilton, Verstappen or others who did prove themselves to be exceptional at the crucial point.
 

[Muppetmad]

Methinks he doth protest too much. Most of the drivers who are in Formula E, Indycar and top level endurance racing tried to reach F1, but there are only a few vacancies each year. Hence the ruthless selection. The drivers who've diverted to those other categories definitely deserve respect in their own right, and there's no need to pretend they're a match for Hamilton, Verstappen or others who did prove themselves to be exceptional at the crucial point.
 

I think everybody is in agreement that Hamilton, Verstappen and a small handful of others are exceptional - but once you get into the second half of the F1 grid, the drivers simply are not exceptional. Chilton, Barrichello, Ericsson and other solid-to-decidedly-average F1 drivers went over to IndyCar and haven't made a large impression (with Rossi being the key exception in recent years); Formula E is certainly not all about the former F1 drivers.

[Ben1445]

Again I’m being misinterpreted. At what point did I say that drivers in FE, Indy ir otherwise would *match* Hamilton and co? I just said they would be good enough to deserve an F1 seat because the grid is simply not the 20 best in the world. It’s some of the best plus the wealthy and the lucky. The remaining best end up elsewhere and, honestly, it’s only good for the other categories.

I complain at the common lack of recognition of this and the delusion that F1 is the best and anyone who didn’t make it is somehow lesser than everyone who did.

[PayasYouRace]

Of course, FE is a different beast to F1 so you need to be careful when comparing drivers, but there are plenty of ex-F1 drivers in FE to give us a fair idea of how good or not the others are.

[Imateria]

Again I’m being misinterpreted. At what point did I say that drivers in FE, Indy ir otherwise would *match* Hamilton and co? I just said they would be good enough to deserve an F1 seat because the grid is simply not the 20 best in the world. It’s some of the best plus the wealthy and the lucky. The remaining best end up elsewhere and, honestly, it’s only good for the other categories.

I complain at the common lack of recognition of this and the delusion that F1 is the best and anyone who didn’t make it is somehow lesser than everyone who did.

It would help if you tried a bit more to get across what you actually mean instead of heading off into factually inacurate rants (Pagenaud was 22 when he made his Champ Car debut as Will Power's team mate, then joined the works Peaugot team in the 908 after the merger left him without a team, it is distinctly disingenuous to suggest he was a rookie or came out of nowhere/the lower ranks when he signed with SPM).

 

As for your last line, that is obvious, the only people that spout that kind of nonsense don't tend to know much about motorsport anyway.

[Vielleicht]

I think the main thing we should all be able to agree on is that the quality of the FE field, generally speaking, is actually very good indeed.

[Imateria]

I think the main thing we should all be able to agree on is that the quality of the FE field, generally speaking, is actually very good indeed.

Oh yeah, it's an exceptionally good field, Ma Qing Hua is the only one that lets the side down in that respect.

[RSRally]

Would be nice if they just got rid of the hairpins altogether and the fast curve just flowed onto the pit straight..