19 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

We often here about GOAT drivers but how many of those drivers are good at developing at car vs just getting in and going?

 

This thread got me thinking - Is LH as good as AS? Has ot can LH develop a car?

 

In a season with McLaren, Senna told his crew that there was an issue with the car during practice. The team reviewed the data and found nothing. You could see RD sort of smerking with the crew "We have to keep Senna happy" sort of.

 

In anycase - and perhaps to heep AS happy, they pulled the car apart and found a sensor failure on the part of the car (I think it was his right rear) that had failed and was not reported so in the data.

 

So...

 

What other drivers have been so keen with regard to developing or troubleshooting a car?

[pitlanepalpatine]

Oh yay, more comparisons to Senna. 

 

Is Lewis as good as Senna at troubleshooting and designing cars? Probably considering neither of thems a gearhead, ie. spends every waking moment near an engine, and Senna dropped out of Business in college and Hamilton went to CATS. Knowing there's something wrong with a  vehicle and figuring out what it is and how to fix/improve it are two entirely separate things. There's lots of anecdotes like the ones you referenced but lets be clear, in the vast majority the driver just said there was an issue and team found and fixed it. On a very basic level, most drivers should be able to identify issues with a road car coz when shits breaking down mechanical stuff tends to make noise, move, shake, rattle and roll, but I generally wouldn't recommend the average soccer mom to go repairing her own fan belt coz she hears it squealing like a stuck pig.

 

If you are going to find people with that skillset it's probably further down the order and further back in time because as F1 developed the requirements to identify and fix your own **** became non-existent in F1 and I'm pretty sure what Nando is going through at Dakar is quite an experience for him. While I'm sure Lewis, or any other drivers, feedback is greatly appreciated I'm pretty sure none of the engineering teams have been handing drivers wrenches in the last 30 years, except maybe Schumacher coz he'd hang around after hours and nobody else had time to fix the coffee machine I exaggerate and kid obviously but let's stop and give some credit to the guys who design, build and fix the cars rather than giving that credit to our personal racing idols as well.

[aportinga]

This is not a comparison thread.

 

I am interested in other drivers who had a significant effort in developing or troubleshooting a car.

 

Whether that is considered as part of being a great driver is in the eye of the beholder.

Edited by aportinga, 15 January 2020 - 19:42.

[ATM]

Michael Schumacher, Hakkinen, Prost as far as I know.

[Marklar]

Drivers being able to develop a car (at least in the last 30 or so years) is a pure myth introduce to push certain narratives in a certain directions. Feedback is certainly important (because there is alway something that can be judged better in the car than the data), and some drivers are better at this than others (especially due to experience), but ultimately the most important thing when it comes to developing the car from the drivers perspective is to drive the car as close to the limit as possible in order to show up any potential weakness.

[maximilian]

If I remember correctly quite a big part of Niki Lauda's story was that he was one of the first to really dive into developing the car and the setup when this wasn't still all that common practice, and that's what initially blew away his team mate Regazzoni and convinced Ferrari that he was a keeper early on.

[MLC]

Lauda did a lot of work with John Barnard to develop the MP4/1. We was praised heavily by the team over the years. In fact, he was pretty upset that McLaren signed Prost in the run up to '84 considering he (Lauda) had done all the work. Ironically, Prost was also later praised the team for his development skills.

[Sterzo]

Racing driver Paul Zuccarelli, together with fellow drivers Jules Goux and Georges Boillot, persuaded Peugeot  to let them design and build a Grand Prix car for the 1912 GP. They had help from a draughtsman, Ernest Henry, but the designs were the drivers'. The engine featured twin overhead cams and four valves in a hemispherical head, revolutionary at the time, and later versions of the car featured four wheel brakes. (Braking the front wheels was tricky because of the tendency of front axles to twist under stress, and the difficulty of combining rod-operated brakes with wheels that steered).

 

Boillot drove to win the 1912 and 1913 French Grands Prix, and Goux drove to victory in the 1913 Indianapolis 500.

 

Go on folks, beat that.

Edited by Sterzo, 15 January 2020 - 22:51.

[Fatgadget]

All said and done. You need a good car to start with!

[PayasYouRace]

We often here about GOAT drivers but how many of those drivers are good at developing at car vs just getting in and going?

 

This thread got me thinking - Is LH as good as AS? Has ot can LH develop a car?

 

In a season with McLaren, Senna told his crew that there was an issue with the car during practice. The team reviewed the data and found nothing. You could see RD sort of smerking with the crew "We have to keep Senna happy" sort of.

 

In anycase - and perhaps to heep AS happy, they pulled the car apart and found a sensor failure on the part of the car (I think it was his right rear) that had failed and was not reported so in the data.

 

So...

 

What other drivers have been so keen with regard to developing or troubleshooting a car?

 

Somehow that failed sensor was still sending normal data to the data logger and so it wasn't noticed during analysis?

 

I smell a motor racing myth. I bet they told him it was a sensor to just tell him something had broken and shut him up.

[Nathan]

Lucas di Grassi

[black magic]

how bout bruce mclaren?

[Jeeves]

Jean-Pierre Jabouille was one who provided the (Renault) team with valid engineering input, despite having no formal training in the area.

[Henri Greuter]

At Indy: the story is that within his rookie year Bill Vukovich had a bad car and he predicted that it would get over a given speed figure he mentioned. And indeed, no-one could better that given number of Vukovich.

 

I also recall a story, and I believe it was Richie Ginther or Phil Hill at Ferrari who felt his engine was about to expire, his mechanics not believing him and he predicted the engine to let go within a certain amount of laps. He went out and at exactly the given number of laps, the engine expired! From then on, his mechanics took him serious whenever he said something.

 

 

From what I can make up, Mario was a big factor in getting Lotus out of the doldrums during '76 and having a lot of input on making the type 78 and 79 work as well as it did.

[BobbyRicky]

Jim Clark?

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most names coming up in this thread are from before the days of electronic data logging.

[Henri Greuter]

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most names coming up in this thread are from before the days of electronic data logging.

Maybe the ban on actual track testing and so much being done in simulators is another factor involved .....

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe the ban on actual track testing and so much being done in simulators is another factor involved .....

There was about a 20 year gap between the two of those. It’s more that you don’t have to rely on a driver’s feel to identify most problems any more.

[kumo7]

There was about a 20 year gap between the two of those. It’s more that you don’t have to rely on a driver’s feel to identify most problems any more.

 

 

I kinda feel empty with this situation. The starting point of motor racing uninteresting.

Everything what human does has some point of being interesting, everything what computer has delivered so far, is making racing uninteresting.

Perhaps AI will make the difference.

[jjcale]

There was about a 20 year gap between the two of those. It’s more that you don’t have to rely on a driver’s feel to identify most problems any more.

 

It still matters ... in 2014 LH broke down in the first race of the hybrid era and Rosberg won. ... in the next race LH cruised to a win from Rosberg by about 20 seconds.... the difference between the two cars was said to be the improvements that LH's side of the garage made based on his feedback and his views on the best driving style to make use of the new hybrid engines. 

 

Also RG telling Hass that they were making the car worse last season despite their data telling them the opposite - he turned out to be right.

 

 

... so drivers can still make a difference.

Edited by jjcale, 16 January 2020 - 17:08.