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RaceFans: Crunch meeting to decide if Mercedes quit F1 at end of this season


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:32

The board of Mercedes‘ parent company Daimler will meet in two weeks’ time to decide whether to withdraw its team from Formula 1 at the end of the 2020 season.
 

RaceFans, in a joint investigation with Autocar, has learned the meeting will take place on February 12th. Mercedes’ current contract to participate in F1 expires at the end of this season.

 

 

https://www.racefans...g-quit-f1-2020/



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#2 paulb

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:42

Fascinating!

 

I hope they stay, to keep the F1 bar as high as possible.



#3 CountDooku

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:43

WOW! This would be HUGE news and the most seismic change in F1 for generations. I really hope Merc stay, they have brought a ridiculous level of professionalism to the sport. 



#4 F1Gui

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:48

The stars are aligning. If Mercedes do leave Hamilton can rejoin McLaren and finish his career there just as many had hoped.

#5 ch103

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:49

I could see them pulling the plug on their team.  A recession is imminent and you have to imagine they are wondering - just how many more fossil fuel cars will we sell by having this team?  The future of vehicles is electric, they know this.



#6 JHSingo

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:50

F1 can ill afford any team to quit, particularly at a time when there's questions about Renault's future participation too.

 

But I'll be completely honest - I wouldn't be that disappointed if they did call it quits.

 

I wouldn't be surprised either, because what really have they got left to achieve?



#7 TomNokoe

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:56

No smoke without fire. 100% leaving. The meeting is just a formality.

 

No wonder Wolff wanted out. McLaren engines at Merc. It's so obvious!!

 

Stroll buys Brackley?

 

Shirley not!


Edited by TomNokoe, 29 January 2020 - 12:00.


#8 Peat

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 11:56

I can't see them staying as anything more than an engine supplier. 



#9 garoidb

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:00

The stars are aligning. If Mercedes do leave Hamilton can rejoin McLaren and finish his career there just as many had hoped.

 

With Mercedes engines, unless that is also in jeopardy.

 

However, wouldn't there be an impetus to have the Brackley team sold rather than just discontinued. In that case, he might stay out of loyalty to the team members that have done so much for him. I could see this unless the buy out involved another engine manufacturer.



#10 Francesc

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:00

I hope they leave. I'm tired of this F1 of two categories.

#11 SophieB

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:01

I don't really see the point of staying as just an engine manufacturer.



#12 SophieB

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:03

Hamilton should stay out of loyalty to the team is a hilarious take in the context of that team leaving.



#13 Ali623

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:05

As much as it's a shame, it probably makes sense. Mercedes were never in F1 for the long haul, the project has been about as successful as they could have hoped, and with the uncertainty of the new regulations/budget cap coming in, now would be a good time to pull out while the investment has been worthwhile.



#14 Afterburner

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:07

In the event they do leave, I suppose while other teams may abandon development of their cars early this year in favor of focusing on next year, Merc will keep working on this year’s car until the end. Not that they aren’t already difficult to beat, but this may make it even tougher...

#15 Peat

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:07

I don't really see the point of staying as just an engine manufacturer.

 

Because there's a business in place. I'd expect Merc AMG HPP to revert to Ilmor and sell PU's under a Merc badge.  

 

The 2021 powertrain's are barely changing.



#16 SophieB

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:11

Because there's a business in place. I'd expect Merc AMG HPP to revert to Ilmor and sell PU's under a Merc badge.  

 

The 2021 powertrain's are barely changing.

 

Not really seeing it. They just made engines before and ultimately it didn't work for them so they tried to make McLaren the works team and then bought their own. Can't see them just going back to it.



#17 Ben1445

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:12

Things would get very interesting if they did leave.

I actually hope they do.

#18 garoidb

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:14

Hamilton should stay out of loyalty to the team is a hilarious take in the context of that team leaving.

 

Do you think there will be no team based at Brackley if Mercedes withdraw?



#19 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:16

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they did, much like when VW quit WRC after a few years of utter dominance too. I hope they remain as an engine supplier at the very least.

I could see them pulling the plug on their team. A recession is imminent and you have to imagine they are wondering - just how many more fossil fuel cars will we sell by having this team? The future of vehicles is electric, they know this.

This ain't true, only the foolish who live in an alternative reality believe this to be the case. The majority of people do not want and cannot have an electric car.

The current push for EVs is just to make themselves look good in the eyes of the idealistic. Any intention of stopping making ICE vehicle is just moral grandstanding they will not act upon.

Edit: Correcting my statement by adding the word 'not' so it is no longer contradictory.

Edited by JavierDeVivre, 07 February 2020 - 14:11.


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#20 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:17

Scoop! Well done Dieter Rencken. I hope Merc stay. The catharsis when someone finally does beat them would be a joyful thing.



#21 SophieB

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:18

Do you think there will be no team based at Brackley if Mercedes withdraw?

 

How should I know? Does it seem like boom time for new teams? But I think it's telling (and funny) that you grant autonomy to leave and follow their best interest to everyone but the driver you seemingly dislike. But by all means enjoy the idea of a Lewis optimistically sitting in an empty Brackley, drumming his fingers just in case someone, anyone happens to buy the round.



#22 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:21

Let's not do the "is the future of cars really electric?" debate in here. There are other places for it.



#23 Whatisvalis

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:22

Someone will buy the team and I believe Merc will continue to provide engines. Could reignite the 21 silly season - Bot out of a drive (replaced by new owners son...). Investment not at required level to keep Hamilton around - and Merc academy drivers dreams shattered.

It will be the end of an era in true excellence.

#24 Marklar

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:22

I would be only fine with it if somebody serious buys it, otherwise it would be a massive loss no matter what you think about them.



#25 CSF

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:23

I always thought Merc itself put very little into the team financially... ?



#26 Ben1445

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:24

This ain't true, only the foolish who live in an alternative reality believe this to be the case. The majority of people do not want and cannot have an electric car.

The current push for EVs is just to make themselves look good in the eyes of the idealistic. Any intention of stopping making ICE vehicle is just moral grandstanding they will act upon.

There are two opposing and extreme views on EVs. Both of them probably about as inaccurate as each other. This is one of those.

The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in the middle.

What I think is true though is that the momentum behind the electrification/EV trend (regardless of why it is happening) is already affecting motorsport at the highest levels.

#27 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:25

Would be something for Hamilton to stay at least a year out of loyalty, get Stroll and Aston Martin to make it an easy decision.
I'm not sure Stroll would be dense enough to put Lance in the car, business is business, once a certain amount of zeros are involved.

McLaren...maybe if their 2020 car is a true top-4 rather than Formula B. Extremely maybe.
Much more likely Wolff and/of Stroll work something out rather than all of Brackley being sacked.

Risil: "Let's not do the "is the future of cars really electric?" debate in here. There are other places for it."
I had alreayd typed this before I saw your response:

It doesn't help that Vandoorne of all people is leading Formula E, in a Mercedes.


Edited by ElectricBoogie, 29 January 2020 - 12:26.


#28 Mat13

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:27

Is this such big news? Their contract expires at the end of this season anyway- meetings regarding the matter are going to happen...

#29 CoolBreeze

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:27

I doubt anyone will miss them..



#30 loki0420

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:30

With Mercedes engines, unless that is also in jeopardy.

 

However, wouldn't there be an impetus to have the Brackley team sold rather than just discontinued. In that case, he might stay out of loyalty to the team members that have done so much for him. I could see this unless the buy out involved another engine manufacturer.

Honda!  :lol:  Circle closed.



#31 Ben1445

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:30

Let's not do the "is the future of cars really electric?" debate in here. There are other places for it.


I agree that the debate itself is tiresome and is not relevant. The effect that it is having on motorsport programmes though is surely unavoidable?

#32 Peat

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:30

Is this such big news? Their contract expires at the end of this season anyway- meetings regarding the matter are going to happen...

 

That's quite true. It may well be an item on the meetings' agenda, but for all we know staying could be a foregone conculsion. 



#33 noikeee

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:32

I don't really see the point of staying as just an engine manufacturer.

 

Makes lots more sense than suddenly completely leaving, they've invested hundreds of millions in developing that engine, have contracts in place to supply it to other teams, and can just keep on making profit from selling the engine around for a few more yeras. Also it appears the regulations are stabilizing so the investment they need to put from here onwards to keep the engine competitive is relatively minimal, compared to the enormous investment they've made until now. They can keep on making cash from selling the engine AND gain some minimal marketing value from it (much diminished compared to running their own all-conquering team, of course, but still gives them some considerable value).



#34 garoidb

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:32

How should I know? Does it seem like boom time for new teams? But I think it's telling (and funny) that you grant autonomy to leave and follow their best interest to everyone but the driver you seemingly dislike. But by all means enjoy the idea of a Lewis optimistically sitting in an empty Brackley, drumming his fingers just in case someone, anyone happens to buy the round.

 

I first acknowledged the neatness of the Mercedes engine link up at McLaren. You are seeing what you want to see.



#35 GoldenColt

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:34

I doubt anyone will miss them..

There have been some dumb comments made already in this thread, yours takes the cake so far.

 

Big loss for F1, especially if they cut all of their ties.


Edited by GoldenColt, 29 January 2020 - 12:36.


#36 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:37

I agree that the debate itself is tiresome and is not relevant. The effect that it is having on motorsport programmes though is surely unavoidable?


Possibly -- without Mercedes commenting on their reasoning (understandable because they haven't decided anything) it's hard to say what effect the pressure to market electric cars is having on the F1 team. Could simply be diminishing returns. Manufacturers come and go.

In any case, in this thread what's relevant is what Mercedes are thinking and planning. A big debate about the true long-term viability of electric cars will drown out the topic.

#37 noikeee

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:39

And btw if they do leave, I think it's a huge blow to the sport of the likes we've not seen in decades. I know Honda, Toyota, Renault, BMW all left in a short span of time when the last recession hit. But the teams that were winning then were McLaren and Ferrari, not them. This is the team that's completely utterly dominated the last 6 years closing shop or selling-and-rebranding to become a privateer - completely unprecedented in the modern era of F1. It might not hit the sport as hard as the great manufacturer exodus of 2008-2010, because you don't need to replace that many cars and money influx at once, but it is quite possibly more damaging in terms of marketing profile.

 

And it's nothing we haven't seen it coming for years, there'd always be diminishing marketing/exposure returns from running a dominating team for years and years, and much more so when the car business is moving from petrol to electric. There was always a danger Mercedes could say okay that's enough and bugger off at any time. The good news is it's now much easier to sell a team like this due to the incoming budget cap which should make teams much more profitable. Back in 2008 they'd probably just fold, now it's much more likely someone will buy them.



#38 Talisman

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:40

Makes lots more sense than suddenly completely leaving, they've invested hundreds of millions in developing that engine, have contracts in place to supply it to other teams, and can just keep on making profit from selling the engine around for a few more yeras. Also it appears the regulations are stabilizing so the investment they need to put from here onwards to keep the engine competitive is relatively minimal, compared to the enormous investment they've made until now. They can keep on making cash from selling the engine AND gain some minimal marketing value from it (much diminished compared to running their own all-conquering team, of course, but still gives them some considerable value).

 

No it doesn't make sense if the objective is to cut costs.

 

They'll have to keep throwing in a lot of money each year to maintain competitiveness, we've seen that despite a half decade of development there are still quite large improvements being made year on year by all four manufacturers.  If they cut the engine budget they will get left behind very quickly.  The money they charge customer teams covers the cost of supply with a little on top, it won't be enough to fund the R/D needed to keep the engine at the top (let alone profit).

 

Given the decrease in marketing value from losing the eponymous team Mercedes PUs will likely end up not being worthwhile in terms of marketing return per Euro spent.

 

Also the important question isn't whether a meeting is taking place to decide Mercedes' future involvement, its the attitude of the relevant people going into that meeting.  Is it a rubber stamp meeting or is F1 involvement hanging on by its fingernails?  That article doesn't address that point.



#39 Marklar

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:43

The Autocar article sounds even more interesting. It goes more into detail about possible knock-on effects, some bits
 

 

Perhaps the most intriguing knock-on effect of the decision will be to whom the ownership of the Mercedes F1 team transfers. Sources suggest a plan is in place for team principal Toto Wolff, who is already a substantial shareholder of the team, to assume control, sensationally working with current Racing Point F1 team owner and mooted Aston Martin investor Lawrence Stroll.

 
It's suggested that the pair will invest respectively in the team and Aston Martin, with one source claiming that Wolff is weighing up the opportunity to assume a top-line position at Aston Martin's road car division while a trusted lieutenant is put in place of the F1 operation. This would be rebranded as an Aston Martin works team, running engines from minority shareholder Mercedes.
 
However, other sources have denied that Wolff has any interest in stepping into a leadership role of a road car manufacturer.
 
An Aston Martin spokesman declined to comment on the rumours when approached by Autocar.

 

 

Sources suggest that if Stroll were to get involved, he would then sell Racing Point – potentially to Belarus-born Russian billionaire Dmitry Mazepin, who made his fortune in the chemical industry. His son Nikita is a high-level racer who has previously tested for the Force India F1 team, which became Racing Point partway through the 2018 season.

A spokesman for Racing Point hasn't yet responded to a request for comment.
 

 

 

Furthermore, there are suggestions that the deal could also draw in Chinese car maker Geely - which owns LotusPolestar and Volvo - as an investor into both the F1 team and Aston Martin. If this were to come to fruition, it's believed the deal would initially be a technical co-operation with the option to expand involvement in time, potentially resulting in Geely acquiring a substantial stake in Aston Martin.

 

Possibly, and seismically for the sport of F1, this upheaval could trigger Lewis Hamilton’s departure from Mercedes to Ferrari. The 35-year-old six-time champion is approaching the final years of his career and admitted last year that he'd had contact from Ferrari’s senior management for the first time.

 
The lure of driving for the sport’s most famous team, potentially combined with the opportunity to end its title drought, and remaining in a fully funded works squad on a substantial salary could sway his decision. It would lead to him partnering Charles Leclerc from the 2021 season, with Sebastian Vettel making way.
 
The Mercedes team's ownership change doesn't necessarily mean Hamilton will move, however. 

 

The deal also potentially puts the Aston Martin Valkyrie and Mercedes-AMG One hypercar projects on a collision course; both are being developed using F1 knowhow, from Red Bull Racing and Mercedes respectively.

https://www.autocar....nsational-aston



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#40 f12018

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:43

maybe this why lewis contact has not be singed



#41 noikeee

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:45

No it doesn't make sense if the objective is to cut costs.

 

They'll have to keep throwing in a lot of money each year to maintain competitiveness, we've seen that despite a half decade of development there are still quite large improvements being made year on year by all four manufacturers.  If they cut the engine budget they will get left behind very quickly.  The money they charge customer teams covers the cost of supply with a little on top, it won't be enough to fund the R/D needed to keep the engine at the top (let alone profit).

 

Given the decrease in marketing value from losing the eponymous team Mercedes PUs will likely end up not being worthwhile in terms of marketing return per Euro spent.

 

Also the important question isn't whether a meeting is taking place to decide Mercedes' future involvement, its the attitude of the relevant people going into that meeting.  Is it a rubber stamp meeting or is F1 involvement hanging on by its fingernails?  That article doesn't address that point.

 

I don't know the maths but even if your goal is to cut costs, it still makes more sense to say, lose 20 or 30 million per year (or whatever it costs to keep that engine barely competitive minus the income they gain from customers), compared to losing 300 or 400 million (or whatever it costs to keep Brackley running).

 

By your take then McLaren would've signed a rubbish piece of paper and would be without a engine for next year. Surely they're more clever than that and have safety guards in place to ensure Mercedes are committed to building that engine.



#42 MacJack

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:45

Both Mercedes and Renault will withdraw from F1 at the end of this season. Fuel engines are from the past, and F1 should have gone for electric engines two seasons ago! Jean Todt made a huge mistake by giving exclusive rights to electric racing for Formula E. 



#43 Ivanhoe

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:45

No it doesn't make sense if the objective is to cut costs.

 

They'll have to keep throwing in a lot of money each year to maintain competitiveness, we've seen that despite a half decade of development there are still quite large improvements being made year on year by all four manufacturers.  If they cut the engine budget they will get left behind very quickly.  The money they charge customer teams covers the cost of supply with a little on top, it won't be enough to fund the R/D needed to keep the engine at the top (let alone profit).

 

Given the decrease in marketing value from losing the eponymous team Mercedes PUs will likely end up not being worthwhile in terms of marketing return per Euro spent.

 

Also the important question isn't whether a meeting is taking place to decide Mercedes' future involvement, its the attitude of the relevant people going into that meeting.  Is it a rubber stamp meeting or is F1 involvement hanging on by its fingernails?  That article doesn't address that point.

Engine performance is already converging and there are plans to freeze the development on some components. The need to invest will drop drastically, that's the perfect time to reap what you sowed. Seems to make perfect sense to me.


Edited by Ivanhoe, 29 January 2020 - 12:46.


#44 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:46

Renault could always buy in and shut down Viry...oh snap...



#45 noikeee

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:47

The Autocar article sounds even more interesting. It goes more into detail about possible knock-on effects, some bits
 

https://www.autocar....nsational-aston

 

The Stroll-Mazepin-Wolff-Aston merry-go-round has been rumoured for a while, I'm sure I've read it in this board a couple of weeks ago. It's the Geely bit that's new.



#46 Sunnny

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:48

This will be great news! Now we can have some movement in the drivers market too!! The fewer big teams the greater the opportunity of having the top drivers in the same team. Hopefully Renault follow suit and quit.  Lewis and DR have no options buit to go begging to Ferrari and RB, join a midfield or just quit. It's all good as long as weMax/RB and Leclerc/Ferrari. 



#47 Risil

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:48

Consortium of investors led by Roger Penske and Fernando Alonso, anyone? Yes this is wish fulfilment.



#48 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:50

maybe this why lewis contact has not be singed


... And why Max and Charles signed theirs ......

#49 Pontlieue

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:50

It's quite remarkable that quitting is even under consideration. As long as Mercedes are on top, the F1 team is paying for itself through payments from FOM and sponsors, not even considering the advertising generated by winning in F1. And with the incoming budget cap, the cost of F1 is set to decrease.

 

So the only reason why they would consider leaving would be that competing F1 goes contrary to the brand image they aim to project in the future. If that is the reason, that's bad news not just for F1 but for motorsport in general. Manufacturers have always come and gone, but that was for cost reasons. But if manufacturers begin to abandon motorsport with IC engines, that will completely reshape motorsport, especially considering that other categories are way more dependent on OEMs than F1.



#50 Burai

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:52

By your take then McLaren would've signed a rubbish piece of paper and would be without a engine for next year. Surely they're more clever than that and have safety guards in place to ensure Mercedes are committed to building that engine.

 

Not necessarily. The rules state that should a team be left without a supplier, one of the remaining manufacturers would have to supply powertrains. That's the safety net.