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Lotus 18-Corvair?


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#1 group7

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 03:21

In the link, ninth image down, looks to be a Lotus 18 ? at Bonneville. four intakes, six exhaust :confused: any ideas ?

Michael.

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 04:05

Corvair or Porsche power?

 

And does it appear that the rear suspension has had a top link added?



#3 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 06:23

Ed Lamantia of Redwood City entered a ‘Lotus-Corvair 18’ in the F Libre race at the 1964 LA Times GP meeting at Riverside. Perhaps the same car?

https://www.newspape...rand_prix_1964/

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 10:10

It sure isn't a Renault gearbox, nor is it a Queerbox...

 

And I don't think it's a Corvair gearbox, logically it would have a Porsche gearbox. And so it proves to be, later than 1954 as it has the additional mount cast into the rear cover:

 

0220porsche356gearboxtails.jpg

 

I wonder if Allen knows this car?



#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 13:50

Having a closer look at it...

 

That seems to say, "Rod Carveth Enterprises Inc." Carveth was an early exponent of slipping a V8 into a Lotus 19 and he did enter cars under that name.



#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 14:23

His entry appears next to Ed Lamantia’s in the Riverside entry list in my post above. Coincidence, or ...

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 16:31

You never know, Tim...

 

How about slipping this stuff off in a separate thread now. It could get interesting.



#8 Tim Murray

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 16:48

The posts above were moved from the Quiz thread.

#9 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 16:50

I'm watching - Rod Carveth? Bonneville?

 

https://library.revs...,/0/default.jpg

 

https://library.revs...066/default.jpg

 

See also:

 

https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/

 

https://library.revs...510/default.jpg

 

https://library.revs...053/default.jpg

 

https://library.revs...405/default.jpg

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 12 February 2020 - 17:09.


#10 Rupertlt1

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 17:21

Competition Press, 19 June 1965

LOTUS 18 CORVAIR — Formula A winner.

Lotus 18 rear suspension, 20 front sus-

pension, 4 wheel disc brakes, wide base

wheels - 13" front, 15" rear, Porsche

718 transaxle, 165 bhp Corvair engine,

spares. Finances require quick sale. Ed

Lamantia, 2249 Edgewood rd., Redwood

City, Calif.; 368-9157.

 

RGDS RLT



#11 group7

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 19:49

Thank you gentlemen   :up:  Ray, and Tim, and RLT, only here would some one  have instant access to,  and remember that car for sale from Competition Press

 

1965 and seeing it on the REV's site  :clap:

 

I imagine we all have those eureka moments, "I know where I've seen that !" and go to our files and find the information.

 

And thanks to whom ever started a new thread !

 

Michael


Edited by group7, 12 February 2020 - 19:49.


#12 DCapps

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 04:09

Competition Press, 19 June 1965

LOTUS 18 CORVAIR — Formula A winner.

Lotus 18 rear suspension, 20 front sus-

pension, 4 wheel disc brakes, wide base

wheels - 13" front, 15" rear, Porsche

718 transaxle, 165 bhp Corvair engine,

spares. Finances require quick sale. Ed

Lamantia, 2249 Edgewood rd., Redwood

City, Calif.; 368-9157.

 

RGDS RLT

 

 

Thank you gentlemen   :up:  Ray, and Tim, and RLT, only here would some one  have instant access to,  and remember that car for sale from Competition Press

 

1965 and seeing it on the REV's site  :clap:

 

I imagine we all have those eureka moments, "I know where I've seen that !" and go to our files and find the information.

 

And thanks to whom ever started a new thread !

 

Michael

I tuned into this late, looked at the car, had the distinct sense that I knew something that rang a bell -- and then, as expected, Rupert the Reliable to the rescue. I remember the car as possibly being one of the early F/A cars when the SCCA created its formulae classes beginning with the 1965 season. (That it had a Corvair engine made it even more memorable since my Dad later restored Corvairs and any and everything about Convairs seemed to end up in his workshop, including a photo of the car at Bonneville. Believe me, it was just one of many such photos...! And, yes, at various times, we had Fitch Sprints and even a Yenko Stinger or two in the shop.) And, I halfway remembered seeing the C/P ad the Rupert uncovered while looking for something else, of course, some months ago and wondering whatever happened to it. I have second Michael in saying what a great job, but wondering what took you so long?

 

(Even with the Corvair connect and the vague memory of the photo from Dad's shop, I would have puzzling over this for at least a few weeks if not months.....)



#13 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 07:06

Ed Lamantia, Sr. also raced a Genie-Corvair.  Apparently, he passed away in 2005.  You should be able to contact Ed Lamantia, Jr. at Huffier Engineering.  His contact info:

 

Ed Lamantia

(707) 935-0533 
piclhead@msn.com

 

Vince H.



#14 Rupertlt1

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 10:35

The Lotus-Corvair reminds me of another affair - a one-off Lotus that disappeared in California in the 1960s, with a possible Bonneville connection:

 

https://forums.autos...-4#entry8471780

 

The Lotus-Valiant last heard of in the Bay Area - a jewel in its heyday that used the motor as a stressed member, the product of Chrysler engineers, said to have inspired Colin Chapman to pursue this line of thinking.

 

[I did have some comms with Edward G. Lamantia in 2018 - but it went nowhere.]

 

RGDS RLT 


Edited by Rupertlt1, 13 February 2020 - 10:43.


#15 lcbulldog

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 16:20

Corvair power seemed like a popular swap.  Harry McIntosh out of Colorado ran an Elva-Corvair in the formula car race at Juarez in 1965.  

 

Regarding the Lotus-Valiant, this was most likely the one built and raced by Bob Montana out of Phoenix, AZ which I saw race at Deming, New Mexico in the early '60s.  The following year Montana showed up with a slant-six in the back of a Cooper Monaco.

 

Mark



#16 Rupertlt1

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 18:13

Corvair power seemed like a popular swap.  Harry McIntosh out of Colorado ran an Elva-Corvair in the formula car race at Juarez in 1965.  

 

Regarding the Lotus-Valiant, this was most likely the one built and raced by Bob Montana out of Phoenix, AZ which I saw race at Deming, New Mexico in the early '60s.  The following year Montana showed up with a slant-six in the back of a Cooper Monaco.

 

Mark

 

The Lotus-Valiant was built in the Detroit area - originally raced by Trant Jarman - much information in the original thread:

 

https://forums.autos...-lotus-elevens/

 

The Cooper-Valiant is intriguing.

I have Phoenix International Raceway, 24/25 April 1965:

E. Luke D/M Cooper-Valiant

Bob Montana is entered in the Plymouth Hemi C/Mod.

 

See also 1964, C&D Mod: http://www.virhistor...rc/1964-res.htm

 

http://www.tamsoldra...aMcKeeHemi.html

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 13 February 2020 - 21:07.


#17 lcbulldog

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 17:51

Rupert,

 

Thanks for the correction on where the Lotus-Valiant was built.  I read the articles in the past, but forgot. 

 

Mark



#18 Peter Morley

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 09:55

Corvair or Porsche power?

 

And does it appear that the rear suspension has had a top link added?

 

There is something that looks like a top link on the right hand side, but the left hand side is clearly a normal 18 upright without a top link and no provision for attaching one, so I think it doesn't have a top link.

That becomes frightening when you look at the driveshaft (e.g. effective top link) angles, which are miles from the designed horizontal.

Presumably they assumed that the rear suspension geometry was irrelevant on a car that was only expected to drive in a straight line?



#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 10:18

Presumably they assumed that the rear suspension geometry was irrelevant on a car that was only expected to drive in a straight line?


According to the link in post 3 it was entered to race at Riverside. Did it actually race there (or on any other circuit)?

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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 13:10

Still trying to get my head around this "top link" argument - other than the brake lines and the bit that disappears behind the exhaust pipes (so it can't possibly be attached to the upright), I can't make out anything that could be construed as a suspension link! :confused:


Edited by Michael Ferner, 17 February 2020 - 13:10.


#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 15:06

Yes, it is hard to make out in that photo...

 

The driveshaft angle was frightening me more than just a little, and I was reading into it that the car would be driven in more than just a straight line.



#22 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 00:49

The Lotus-Valiant was built in the Detroit area - originally raced by Trant Jarman - much information in the original thread:

 

https://forums.autos...-lotus-elevens/

 

The Cooper-Valiant is intriguing.

I have Phoenix International Raceway, 24/25 April 1965:

E. Luke D/M Cooper-Valiant

Bob Montana is entered in the Plymouth Hemi C/Mod.

 

See also 1964, C&D Mod: http://www.virhistor...rc/1964-res.htm

 

http://www.tamsoldra...aMcKeeHemi.html

 

RGDS RLT

A slant 6 with the alloy block would not be the worst thing. Depending on how well prepared it was fairly light and they can make very good power. And for a big long stroke motor fairly low.

Though the flat 6 Corvair or Porker are a deal lower and shorter. But make less power.



#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 03:17

You'd never make the flat engines work in a Lotus 11, though, Lee...

 

It would mean putting heads into the driver's footwell.

 

As for the height of the Slant 6, you might be surprised. It loses negligible height at all leaning over 30° as the 'high' side of the head is still rising at that point in the turning over. Not only that, the inlets are on that side so the manifold and carby/carbies at at a high point too.

 

Out of interest, here's a comparison of the Slant 6 engine alongside the same profile if it had been vertical:

 

0220fr6265postslantcomparison.jpg

 

One day I'll give you a comparison measurement with the Hemi 6, I think it might be lower over the rocker cover despite extra capacity. Yes, it is a shorter stroke.

 

In the Chrysler blurb, repeated over and over on websites, they cite lower bonnet line and lower centre of gravity as the reason for going for the slant. Another thing mentioned is the overall length because the water pump is recessed alongside No 1 cylinder.

 

You can quite clearly see in the diagram above that the inlet port is at the same height both vertically and slanted, and you know full well that the air cleaner sits high above the carburettor, so tell me, is it really for height under the bonnet? As for the water pump, they could have done that with the engine vertical anyway, and I ask you to stare at the above for a while and see if you can see any change in the centre of gravity.

 

The real reason? That's easy, Ease of underbonnet access to ancillaries and extra room for a nice smooth inlet manifold. And why do I know this?

 

The Peugeot 404s and 504s I've owned over many years had a 45° slant and their carby stuck up too. But at 45° the engine was getting lower. Then I looked in the engine bay and saw how much room there would be for access to the gear linkages and steering flector in the left hand drive versions they were designed to be.



#24 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 09:54

Still trying to get my head around this "top link" argument - other than the brake lines and the bit that disappears behind the exhaust pipes (so it can't possibly be attached to the upright), I can't make out anything that could be construed as a suspension link! :confused:

 

Yep the bit that disappears behind the exhaust is the only thing I could see that might be construed to be a top link (despite being miles away), the car definitely doesn't have them.



#25 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 09:59

Yes, it is hard to make out in that photo...

 

The driveshaft angle was frightening me more than just a little, and I was reading into it that the car would be driven in more than just a straight line.

 

It's amazing how some people were totally unaware of how the suspension worked.

When Equipe Nationale Belge got their Emeryson F1 cars they fitted their own engines (Maserati) and gearboxes, their installation had the driveshaft at the wrong height and the cars apparently did not handle well, and their installation had probably moved it less than 1 inch rather than the massive change here.



#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 13:55

One thing's for sure...

 

It won't be lacking negative camber on the outside wheel in a corner.