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When I were a lad.........new car meant summit.


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#1 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 16:37

Yeah i know, it's the regs fault, the designers have no choice but there used to be a time when you didn't know what the hell this years car was going to look like, when car launches were genuinely exciting, now it's just.......last years car but longer. :|

 

I4tllI6.jpg



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#2 DogEarred

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 16:39

That,s alright.

 

 

Most of us here enjoy a good moan anyway.

 

 

Why didn't you post any photos of the 2020 Renault?...    :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:



#3 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 16:54

Tis a mythical beast, to capture it would be to kill it!



#4 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 16:56

It’s not as much the regs fault as the fact were just 20-30 years more experienced at building racing cars and the laws of physics on Earth haven’t changed. Yes, the regs determine the overall “look” of the car, but you’re not going to see many differences year on year because we can figure out the optimum design within one season.

 

To use your example, it would maybe take a month of simulation to get from the F92A to the F310B without even having to build a physical car. New ideas can be tested, the bad ones discarded and the good ones retained in a much quicker timespan now.



#5 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:13

The older I get the more convinced I become that technology is more of a burden to F1 than an asset or maybe it just becomes a burden beyond a certain level.

 

What the hell must it have been like to follow F1 in the late 60's, in the space of about 3 seaons you gained commercial sponsorship, front and rear wings, airboxes, load bearing engines, sidepod mounted radiators and slick tyres, it must have felt like the grid had been dropped out of a UFO.



#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:17

That period from 1967 to 1970 must have had a lot of people thinking, "Why didn't anyone think to do this before?"



#7 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:21

There must be a decent a book in the ideas that never made it to the track.



#8 Dutchrudder

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:24

What caused that to happen so fast? For the historians amongst us?

Was it a simple case of Cosworth coming up with the stressed member at the same time as Chapman was exploring aero at Lotus? Right people right place right time? Bernie doing his thing also around then?

I may be completely wrong on the timeframes of the people I’ve mentioned.

Or was there a regs change that offered innovation?

#9 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:36

The left hand column is pure car porn.

#10 Grayson

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:42

I suppose new car launches could be a bit more interesting in the days when the engineers and designers weren't even 100% sure what the optimal number of wheels should be...



#11 JHSingo

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:43

I suppose this year has exacerbated that feeling, because of the stable regulations. We knew there wouldn't be any huge surprises this year, but it's felt typically F1 - massively overhyped, and usually underwhelming. To my eye, the cars we've seen so far this year look absolutely no different to last year's. 

 

Even the excitement of seeing new liveries has been lost. I can get why teams want to stick to their branding, and why Mercedes will always be silver, Ferrari will always be red, and Red Bull will always be Red Bull, but come on - at least make an effort! They just seem so unimaginative and unexciting - the fan art always, always, looks so much better. When Mercedes has some long drawn out press conference to unveil...*drum roll*...a car with a tiny bit of red on it, it's just laughable and depressing at the same time.

 

As far as actual launches go, I can't decide which is worse really. The minimum effort "slap a CGI image of how the car definitely won't look by the first race on social media and be done with it" solution, or the excruciatingly long and drawn out kind of nonsense Ferrari subjected us to. At least with the former, you don't have to endure sitting through some tedious bore droning on for half an hour.

 

I'm sure next year will (hopefully) be far more exciting with the regulation change. But yeah, the start to this season has been distinctly underwhelming so far. Can't wait for the endless misplaced analysis from testing and all the predictions that we're in for a mega close year, only for Mercedes to turn up and romp away with it in Australia yet again... :yawnface:



#12 d246

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:43

The sense of anticipation has dropped too. I remember rushing to buy Autosport to see if the rumours of the radical Ferrari 640 were true!



#13 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:46

The older I get the more convinced I become that technology is more of a burden to F1 than an asset or maybe it just becomes a burden beyond a certain level.

 

What the hell must it have been like to follow F1 in the late 60's, in the space of about 3 seaons you gained commercial sponsorship, front and rear wings, airboxes, load bearing engines, sidepod mounted radiators and slick tyres, it must have felt like the grid had been dropped out of a UFO.

 

Of course, pre-1967 will always be the most boring time for liveries.



#14 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:48

What caused that to happen so fast? For the historians amongst us?

Was it a simple case of Cosworth coming up with the stressed member at the same time as Chapman was exploring aero at Lotus? Right people right place right time? Bernie doing his thing also around then?

I may be completely wrong on the timeframes of the people I’ve mentioned.

Or was there a regs change that offered innovation?

The stressed engine, wings and commercial Sponsorship was Just Chapman thinking outside the box, initially the wings were built onto the wheel uprights for efficiency but the spindles supporting them were prone to failure so the regs demanded they were fixed directly to the body. I guess once you need to put a wing on the nose it made sense to shunt the rads to the side. I think Tyrrell ran the first airbox and from what I've read they didn't have a clue it would make a difference, assuming it would just add drag, they put it on at a test and gained so much power they immediately pulled it off before anyone noticed.

 

Not sure what was behind the slick tyre but I think it was just a coincidence that people got experimental and maybe the addition of decent money coming in from sponsorship allowed more designers to come on board and play around a bit.

 

To be honest though it's before my time.



#15 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:50

The stressed engine, wings and commercial Sponsorship was Just Chapman thinking outside the box, initially the wings were built onto the wheel uprights for efficiency but the spindles supporting them were prone to failure so the regs demanded they were fixed directly to the body. I guess once you need to put a wing on the nose it made sense to shunt the rads to the side. I think Tyrrell ran the first airbox and from what I've read they didn't have a clue it would make a difference, assuming it would just add drag, they put it on at a test and gained so much power they immediately pulled it off before anyone noticed.

 

Not sure what was behind the slick tyre but I think it was just a coincidence that people got experimental and maybe the addition of decent money coming in from sponsorship allowed more designers to come on board and play around a bit.

 

To be honest though it's before my time.

 

Actually the commercial sponsorship was just the FIA allowing teams in world championships to run something other than their national colours for the first time.



#16 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:51

The sense of anticipation has dropped too. I remember rushing to buy Autosport to see if the rumours of the radical Ferrari 640 were true!

I don't know why, maybe just being younger but I remember being so damned wired to see a single pic of a new car on some foggy winter test track in Autosport.



#17 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:52

Actually the commercial sponsorship was just the FIA allowing teams in world championships to run something other than their national colours for the first time.

I didn't realise that was mandated, thought it was just a team preference.



#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 17:54

I didn't realise that was mandated, thought it was just a team preference.

 

Yeah. As soon as the rule was relaxed, Team Gunston ran their sponsor colours. Lotus followed very soon after.

 

vi889hflvzc21.jpg



#19 nosecone

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 18:22

Well they do not only get longer every year. They also get a flick ups and guiding vanes here and there. Oh and they get mat paint now



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#20 Imateria

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 18:43

I think it also needs to be remembered that the left hand column also represents a team chasing it's technical tail, with the 93 and early 96 car representing some pretty aweful designs from Ferrari (and that 96 car is the ugliest of the 10 showen by far).

 

Show pictures of the Williams's from the same years in the 90's and other than the 93 and 94 cars will look pretty similar, as will the 95, 96 and 97 cars.


Edited by Imateria, 13 February 2020 - 18:46.


#21 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 20:38

Good thing that the 2021 launches will be great! More excited for that season than this one.



#22 Fastcake

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 21:01

When was the last time there was some major excitement and mystery over a new car launch? Baring major regulation changes of course.

 

The last one I can think of was the McLaren MP4-26 in 2011, with the radical sidepod design and the "octopus" exhaust.



#23 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 21:25

When was the last time there was some major excitement and mystery over a new car launch? Baring major regulation changes of course.

 

The last one I can think of was the McLaren MP4-26 in 2011, with the radical sidepod design and the "octopus" exhaust.

Christ, was that the one the 'built' live as the launch? yeah, the car was interesting but that was a swing and a miss....



#24 Boing 2

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 21:44

I think it also needs to be remembered that the left hand column also represents a team chasing it's technical tail, with the 93 and early 96 car representing some pretty aweful designs from Ferrari (and that 96 car is the ugliest of the 10 showen by far).

 

Show pictures of the Williams's from the same years in the 90's and other than the 93 and 94 cars will look pretty similar, as will the 95, 96 and 97 cars.

Maybe, that was Newey's thing in the mid 90's though, to refine a concept endlessley although I guess Bennetton went a similar way too. There was always Sauber, Jordan, Tyrell, Minardi who all felt like they were making noteable changes every year.

 

Maybe the fact that the big teams are all works outfits doesn't help as the liveries stay the same every year too.



#25 Sterzo

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 22:10

 

What the hell must it have been like to follow F1 in the late 60's, in the space of about 3 seaons you gained commercial sponsorship, front and rear wings, airboxes....
 

And we all complained about them.



#26 OO7

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 23:16

Yeah i know, it's the regs fault, the designers have no choice but there used to be a time when you didn't know what the hell this years car was going to look like, when car launches were genuinely exciting, now it's just.......last years car but longer. :|

 

I4tllI6.jpg

All those Ferrari's and the 1990 641 (F1-90) is nowhere to be seen.  Shameful!



#27 BuddyHolly

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 00:05

So yeah, modern F1 is boring and predicable.  Who would have guessed huh?



#28 mclarensmps

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 00:42

The first three pictures are as similar to each other as the last three are.  :lol:



#29 BalanceUT

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 02:08

They didn't even try to get the tires to show the manufacturer's names at the top of the tire... geez, such unprofessionalism. 



#30 HP

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 06:36

Hush, call all aerodynamic designers back to school.

 

Today's topic is on essence: Reduce things to their fundamental purpose.

 

There might be one tiny, slight problem with this approach. Although these modern F1 cars will look much more beautiful after redesign, it might be just enough to appreciate their beauty at the back of the field, only to be seen when they get lapped several times during a race. The other tiny problem: who is going to sponsor such a back marker team? Someone who sells retro and antique things? Organizers of historical races?

 

Don't get me wrong, I prefer beautiful and uncluttered cars, but remember the Williams FW26 of 2004 with the Walrus nose? At that time most people found the nose ugly. Frank Williams commented on it, if it is fast, everyone thinks it's beautiful.

 

Even more interesting, until 2018 that Williams FW26 held the record for the fastest lap in F1 ever, driven by Juan Pablo Montoya. The 2018 car beating the time? Well it is seen above, one of the ugly cars, the Ferrari of 2018, driven by Kimi. Somehow it seems the faster the car, the uglier they get.



#31 Stephane

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 06:55

The FW26 holding the record was the "normal-nosed' one, though.



#32 king_crud

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 08:14

Yeah. As soon as the rule was relaxed, Team Gunston ran their sponsor colours. Lotus followed very soon after.

 

vi889hflvzc21.jpg

 

what a glamorous time: the swinging 60s, F1 with their glamour stars, living life on the edge...…..and Team Gunston



#33 B Squared

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 08:22

I always liked the gold anodized wheels on the earlier Ferraris.



#34 messy

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:15

The new cars are so boring these days aren't they. That mid 90s era in the OP, that's the era I grew up with. I remember looking at pics of the snake/hornet B&H Jordans for hours, marvelling at how brilliant they'd look on track, being so impressed by the look of the 1998 McLaren, and there were some beauties, some real surprises, every year. Now though, if you showed me a pic of Vettel in a 2017 Ferrari and Vettel in a 2019 Ferrari, I'd probably have to study it for a bit until I worked out which was which. 



#35 Knowlesy

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:25

I think if people spent less time in online forums speculating over what the cars will look like and setting themselves up for a fall they'd probably feel less disillusioned with launch season.

They really aren't that much worse than what went before.

My personal favourite these days is the fawning over God-awful fan liveries and then getting angry that the actual designers didn't go with what Mr X off the internet drew up.

#36 OO7

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:26

I think if people spent less time in online forums speculating over what the cars will look like and setting themselves up for a fall they'd probably feel less disillusioned with launch season.

They really aren't that much worse than what went before.

My personal favourite these days is the fawning over God-awful fan liveries and then getting angry that the actual designers didn't go with what Mr X off the internet drew up.

:up:



#37 Boing 2

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 09:52

And we all complained about them.

Were you following things back then? I always wondered how the fans reacted to it all.



#38 Dolph

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:13

The new cars are so boring these days aren't they. That mid 90s era in the OP, that's the era I grew up with. I remember looking at pics of the snake/hornet B&H Jordans for hours, marvelling at how brilliant they'd look on track, being so impressed by the look of the 1998 McLaren, and there were some beauties, some real surprises, every year. Now though, if you showed me a pic of Vettel in a 2017 Ferrari and Vettel in a 2019 Ferrari, I'd probably have to study it for a bit until I worked out which was which.


Just a reality check: 1998 was the introduction of narrow cars and grooved tyres. You mustve had very peculiar taste to find the 1998 cars appealing.

I for one cant tell the difference between 1998 and 2000 McLaren. In the 90s the designs were certainly more interesting but strip down the colors and there is only a fandfull of cars you could name for certain.

#39 messy

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:42

I think if people spent less time in online forums speculating over what the cars will look like and setting themselves up for a fall they'd probably feel less disillusioned with launch season.

They really aren't that much worse than what went before.

My personal favourite these days is the fawning over God-awful fan liveries and then getting angry that the actual designers didn't go with what Mr X off the internet drew up.

 

Certainly can't argue with that bit. 



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#40 Burai

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 10:46

I think it also needs to be remembered that the left hand column also represents a team chasing it's technical tail, with the 93 and early 96 car representing some pretty aweful designs from Ferrari (and that 96 car is the ugliest of the 10 showen by far).

 

Show pictures of the Williams's from the same years in the 90's and other than the 93 and 94 cars will look pretty similar, as will the 95, 96 and 97 cars.

 

Very much so. FW14-16 look very similar as do FW17-20. Benetton are an even better example. All their cars from B192 to B197 look very similar.

 

A lot of teams took missteps to try to deal with the increased crash protection and stepped floor brought in for 1995. Again, the cars looked different because the designers made mistakes or lacked the knowledge to make the most of the ruleset, not because there were multiple dramatically different concepts that all worked as well as each other.

 

 

My personal favourite these days is the fawning over God-awful fan liveries and then getting angry that the actual designers didn't go with what Mr X off the internet drew up.

 

It's very easy to come up with something beautiful when you don't have to worry about the commercial reality of what a team owner and their sponsors are paying for. Like those McLaren-Honda mock liveries where Honda got an extra £60m worth of free advertising space because having big Honda logos all over the car looks nicer than empty space. Or the constant accusations of being boring because Red Bull and Haas continue to paint their cars in *gasp* the corporate colours of Red Bull and Haas.

 

You'd think that Sean Bull's work with Renault and Dragon would be enough proof for people of what happens when talent hits reality but I guess not. The irony of people clamouring for that fantasy Renault livery when the real livery is designed by one of the most prolific creators of fantasy liveries is not lost on me.



#41 red stick

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 12:40

That,s alright.

 

 

Most of us here enjoy a good moan anyway.

 

 

Why didn't you post any photos of the 2020 Renault?...    :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:

 

 

Tis a mythical beast, to capture it would be to kill it!

 

Perhaps it's so fast conventional photography simply can't capture it.   :cool:

 

Ah, the dreams of the off-season.


Edited by red stick, 14 February 2020 - 12:41.


#42 JHSingo

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 13:06

You'd think that Sean Bull's work with Renault and Dragon would be enough proof for people of what happens when talent hits reality but I guess not. The irony of people clamouring for that fantasy Renault livery when the real livery is designed by one of the most prolific creators of fantasy liveries is not lost on me.

Well, Red Bull certainly had no issues coming up with special 'one off' liveries in previous years - which probably shows it's not as commercially impossible as you'd believe to come up with something a bit different. You only have to look at the buzz that those created to see the effect that unveiling something like that has.

 

It's funny you mention Formula E too - a series where most of the current grid is using a combination of black, red and white. Yey for originality!

 

And on a sort-of related note, the Red Bull Holden team in the Australian Supercars series manages to make their livery different every year, even though they've got the same sponsors. Wonder how they manage that?  ;)


Edited by JHSingo, 14 February 2020 - 13:09.


#43 Frood

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 13:16

I think when it's on a global stage like F1, the sponsors very much dictate what you can and can't do, so you end up with something similar every year.

There's also the problem that some of the "fantasy" designs look good at standstill but would look like a mess at speed. Sponsors don't like that.

#44 milestone 11

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 13:17

And we all complained about them.

Don't include me in that statement, I loved the innovation. Prior to '67, there were too many coloured cigars on wheels. Yeah, I know it's not F1 but that Chaparral 2F at the BOAC 500 in '67 left me mesmerised.

#45 Sterzo

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 14:34

^ Indeed, and I was slightly tongue in cheek. The technical innovation was exciting, the commercialisation less welcome - but there were some great sponsor liveries too, JPS and Yardley amongst them.



#46 player1s

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 14:49

I don't know why, maybe just being younger but I remember being so damned wired to see a single pic of a new car on some foggy winter test track in Autosport.

I didnt have money to buy those magazines but I do remember that in the days before internet I always checked the BBC Ceefax for the latest F1 news and also the German RTL variant of that because both where pretty quick with news.

I remember when the Ceefax reported Hill going to Arrows. It was just crazy.
It was more crazy than Danny going to Renault. The internet would have exploded back then if it was as advanced as it is today.



#47 Burai

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 15:24

Well, Red Bull certainly had no issues coming up with special 'one off' liveries in previous years - which probably shows it's not as commercially impossible as you'd believe to come up with something a bit different. You only have to look at the buzz that those created to see the effect that unveiling something like that has.

 

It's funny you mention Formula E too - a series where most of the current grid is using a combination of black, red and white. Yey for originality!

 

And on a sort-of related note, the Red Bull Holden team in the Australian Supercars series manages to make their livery different every year, even though they've got the same sponsors. Wonder how they manage that?  ;)

 

There's a massive difference between a one-off launch livery that only the hardcore fans get to see and running that same livery all year long with millions of eyes on it.

 

And Red Bull Holden is slightly more complicated because it's Red Bull title sponsoring Holden's works team, not a Red Bull-owned team. Holden control what happens in the bits that aren't Red Bull's logos, just as KTM do in MotoGP.

 

 

I remember when the Ceefax reported Hill going to Arrows. It was just crazy.
It was more crazy than Danny going to Renault. The internet would have exploded back then if it was as advanced as it is today.

 

Haha, I remember reading that article over and over in utter disbelief and calling my dad in and him thinking I was joking. "Damon Hill's signed for Footwork!" Still can't quite believe it today.



#48 Augurk

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 15:37

Wouldn't it be awesome if this was Red Bulls testing livery and the permanent livery would be a changed one. They'd have us all fooled. 



#49 SuperSwede

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 21:31

I was about to become 11 when John Player Team Lotus launched the John Player Special Mk I aka Lotus 76
oTRXlWk.png
I remember reading about it in the newspapers and in the magazine Teknikens Värld too, and I thought that it was awesome. I know pretty much all there is to know about this car and the 76B too, but I can´t remember on which date nor where it was launched. It would be most appreciated if anyone of you could tell me.


#50 midgrid

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 23:13

Does anything top the Tyrrell P34 for a surprising launch?