899 replies to this topic

[midgrid]

In today's testing, it has been widely noted that the Mercedes W11 features an innovative driver-activated system, in which the steering wheel is used to change the toe of the wheels whilst the car is on a straight.
 
The legality of the system has yet to be fully confirmed - the system could fall foul of the wording of some of the FIA Technical Regulations, but the team are confident that it has been cleared to race (there is also the possibility that it could be banned on safety grounds, perhaps depending if it offers a significant performance advantage, and how difficult it is to copy...)
 
Thanks to RedBaron and frood for these gifs:
 

 
 
 

 
Scarbs explains the system on Peter Windsor's YouTube channel:
 

[Okyo]

Willing to start a fundraiser to rename the threat to "DAS ist gut?"

 

Realy question is, just how much do they gain in the straights while narrowing the car. It shouldn't be able to be used anywhere near the corner, as moving the front wheels should negatively effect the airflow to the rest of the car through the inside wheel/nose part of the car. 

Edited by Okyo, 20 February 2020 - 13:57.

[JeePee]

Dual AXIS steering, not active.

[Knowlesy]

If it has been cleared to race already and it gets through testing alright then it should stay. 

 

Amazing that Merc keep coming up with huge innovations within these strict rules. 

[ConsiderAndGo]

Another amazing innovation by this quite incredible team.

 

Hats off to them. The competition pie faced again.

 

Just a shame one drivers so much better than the other. 

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 20 February 2020 - 13:57.

[doc83]

Reminds me of "Das Auto" by VW. 

[noikeee]

I see the benefit but won't that tire out the drivers a lot, doing that every straight for 2 hours?

[GAZF1nut]

Impressive new concept, but I cant see it being kept for safety reasons.

[SonGoku]

I see the benefit but won't that tire out the drivers a lot, doing that every straight for 2 hours?

 

Have u seen Lewis Hamilton fitness?

[Lord Snooty]

Of course, could all be a cunning plan by Toto to distract people from some other aspect of the car ...

[haryantofan666]

DAS BOOT

 

winning both titles

[Knowlesy]

I see the benefit but won't that tire out the drivers a lot, doing that every straight for 2 hours?

 

Probably not, no.

[Kev00]

So how is the steering wheel moving? Are the drivers pulling a lever and adjusting it themselves? Do they push a magic button?

[Henri Greuter]

If this is to enhance aero efficiency then it could be banned on the arguement that the wheels are used as aero assisting devises and that would make the movable aero parts.

I know, these wheels also move when steering but then it serves another primary intention, to change direction of the car. But moves of the wheels othre then fur such porposes could be forbidden.

 

For whatever reason it's done, hats of for thinking it up but for a number of reasons, safety etc included: ban it ASAP.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 20 February 2020 - 14:08.

[paipa]

Mercedes-Benz.

DAS Beste oder nichts.

[gillesfan76]

I see the benefit but won't that tire out the drivers a lot, doing that every straight for 2 hours?

 

Pulling and pushing the steering 2 - 3 times per lap? Compared to where they’re already turning the steering left and right dozens of times a lap, while holding up their head in corners and braking while it’s heavy as a rather large watermelon and pushing the brake pedal with 150 kg of force dozens of times each lap?

[PedroDiCasttro]

The system is quite simple, actually, and makes you realize that Mercedes is the only team that does any kind of brainstorming on the concept stages of their cars.

[gillesfan76]

Driver Assisted Setup

[Beri]

It's a fantastic find. But I can't see it surviving the fuss it has brought out.

[andrewf1]

Made a smoother gif so you can look at it over and over again 

 

[RedFlag]

I think that so far the clearest description of the system is provided by Marc Priestly in this video:

 

Edited by RedFlag, 20 February 2020 - 14:20.

[Mascalzone]

Season is f**ked up already if this is considered legal as it seems it is.

 

This system actively changes the aerodynamic of the car and the tire consumption. For sure it's an innovation but I think it clearly goes against the spirit of the regulations which cleary forbids any possibility of actively changing the attitude of the car once this is moving.

[w1Y]

No one actually knows or has quoted what kind of benefit this translates into in regards track time. Everyone is claiming it as a guarenteed winning trick. we dont know that. We also dont know whether any other team already had similar plans for this to be introduced in week 2

[Mascalzone]

No one actually knows or has quoted what kind of benefit this translates into in regards track time.

More speed on straights, better (if not less) tire consumption.

[w1Y]

More speed on straights, better (if not less) tire consumption.

Again, no translation into time

[pitlanepalpatine]

I'm mainly concerned from a safety perspective and would like to know how much impact testing the system has undergone. Maybe they've found a novel way to make it safe but I'm really not liking the concept of a moving part connecting the external structure to the inside of the cockpit.

[hodgy21]

If this is to enhance aero efficiency then it could be banned on the arguement that the wheels are used as aero assisting devises and that would make the movable aero parts.

I know, these wheels also move when steering but then it serves another primary intention, to change direction of the car. But moves of the wheels othre then fur such porposes could be forbidden.

 

For whatever reason it's done, hats of for thinking it up but for a number of reasons, safety etc included: ban it ASAP.

 

I would hope the rule makers stopped using the phrase "primary function" after what happened with the BT46. The primary function (51%) of the suction the fan created was to cool a radiator. The fact that 49% of the airflow happened to suck the car to the floor was just an added benefit.

[Atreiu]

Too bad these aren't the late 90s early 00s, huh? FIA could just kneejerk and ban anything if Ferrari applied enough pressure.

[Knowlesy]

Too bad these aren't the late 90s early 00s, huh? FIA could just kneejerk and ban anything if Ferrari applied enough pressure.

Impossible. The media is against them.

[Timstr11]

Impressive new concept, but I cant see it being kept for safety reasons.

Steering is already assisted by hydraulics via driver input. I don't see how this additional input could be a safety compromise.

Edited by Timstr11, 20 February 2020 - 14:19.

[Mascalzone]

More speed on straights, better (if not less) tire consumption.

 

 

Again, no translation into time

 

Are you serious? Less travel time on the straights, less loss of tire performance, aka better lap times.

[Marklar]

Again, no translation into time

More speed on straight = no translation into time?

I get that you LOVE to downplay Merc at every opportunity, but lol.

[Jvr]

Well, there's still the dimension of tilt/up and down to be used e.g. for camber...

[GoGro]

Hello,

 

As a non-specialist, could someone explain in what sense this is more legal than the brake bias system from Renault last year ?

[Pimpwerx]

I'm mainly concerned from a safety perspective and would like to know how much impact testing the system has undergone. Maybe they've found a novel way to make it safe but I'm really not liking the concept of a moving part connecting the external structure to the inside of the cockpit.

Safety concerns are unfounded. Since there is a minimum distance from driver to wheel, and the helmet cannot contact the wheel during an impact, the full range of motion of the movement would need to be constrained. That's pretty much it. There's no risk of the steering column projecting into the cockpit anymore than you have with a fixed wheel. The column has a finite length, even with movement along the z-axis. Any fears that this system is less safe than a regular wheel should also be applied to current wheels, because anything that could go catastrophically wrong with DAS, can also go equally wrong with traditional wheels. I've reached this conclusion after multiple users noted that there's a minimum distance from the wheel.

[hodgy21]

Are you serious? Less travel time on the straights, less loss of tire performance, aka better lap times.

 

 

He wants a quantifiable number:

 

2 seconds per lap or 0.002 seconds per lap.

[grunf77]

First association is Senna/Williams/steering wheel.

[Heyli]

Hello,

 

As a non-specialist, could someone explain in what sense this is more legal than the brake bias system from Renault last year ?

That was automated? 

[PayasYouRace]

I'm mainly concerned from a safety perspective and would like to know how much impact testing the system has undergone. Maybe they've found a novel way to make it safe but I'm really not liking the concept of a moving part connecting the external structure to the inside of the cockpit.

It appears to be mechanically part of the steering system. Can’t imagine there’s a high risk.

[Ursus]

I can see it beeing in breach of 10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion. The key poin being if toe change is considered an adjustment? Are they allowed adjustable arb's?

If it's power assisted then that's also forbidden. Power steering is only allowed to assist the steering of the car.
10.4.2 Power assisted steering systems may not be electronically controlled or electrically powered.
No such system may carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to
steer the car.

[J2NH]

Amazing.  

 

Seriously, just when you think that everything has been tried Mercedes comes up with this.

 

Legal?  Mercedes clearly openly states that they have developed the system with the full knowledge of the FIA.  So the legality will come down to politics, as usual.

 

Anyway, hats off to Mercedes for innovating, a great group of engineers thinking outside the box.  

[Mascalzone]

Safety concerns are unfounded.

Until it breaks.

[grunf77]

Too bad these aren't the late 90s early 00s, huh? FIA could just kneejerk and ban anything if Ferrari applied enough pressure.

Tables are turned.

[jannyg]

It is a brilliant idea and what the pinnacle of motorsport should be encouraging.

 

I just cant understand those calling to ban this on safety grounds.

[superdelphinus]

I'm mainly concerned from a safety perspective and would like to know how much impact testing the system has undergone. Maybe they've found a novel way to make it safe but I'm really not liking the concept of a moving part connecting the external structure to the inside of the cockpit.

Aren’t you just describing any steering wheel there?

[Mascalzone]

I can see it beeing in breach of 10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion. The key poin being if toe change is considered an adjustment? Are they allowed adjustable arb's?

If it's power assisted then that's also forbidden. Power steering is only allowed to assist the steering of the car.
10.4.2 Power assisted steering systems may not be electronically controlled or electrically powered.
No such system may carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to
steer the car.

FIA has already said that it is formally legal, discuss this is useless. Becasue with this toe angle is not modified through suspensions and because it is mechanical not electronic.

 

The only sensible criticism is that it goes against the spirit of the regulations, not its articles.

Edited by Mascalzone, 20 February 2020 - 14:31.

[superdelphinus]

It is a brilliant idea and what the pinnacle of motorsport should be encouraging.

 

I just cant understand those calling to ban this on safety grounds.

I think they are just pre-cursing the angle the teams are going to take.  

[w1Y]

More speed on straight = no translation into time?

I get that you LOVE to downplay Merc at every opportunity, but lol.

Im not downplaying it. People including yourself have a hard time reading. I get it should be a time benefit but we need to be able to put it into context. Is it 0.1 sec or 0.5 sec around say Barca. We simply dont know so you should actually get the point of my question first.

People are crying that its season over when we don't even know the extent the advantage this brings. It could be huge, but we don't know.

So how about we act a bit more rationally and work out what it actually means before we start crying.

Edited by w1Y, 20 February 2020 - 14:34.

[Paco]

Braking and acceleration also can be considered moveable aero that is caused by drivers as it loads and unloads the front and back of the car..

I see zero wrong in this idea, pretty soon drivers won’t be allowed to change gears or press the brake peddle.

Edited by Paco, 20 February 2020 - 14:44.

[Mascalzone]

People are crying that its season over when we don't even know the extent the advantage this brings.
 

Because that's not the point, actually. If they have implemented it, it is clear that it is a benefit.