44 replies to this topic

[Branislav]

Onboard With Valtteri Bottas For The Fastest Lap Of The First Pre-Season Test

https://www.youtube....h?v=YI53LYZm0xE

 

Car skill 95%

Driver skill 5%

 

That Mercedes is on rails. Where's driver factor? What are we watching here race of drivers or race of cars (engineers)?

 

 

Don't be hars here's Nascar fan

[PayasYouRace]

That's the problem when you see one of the best drivers in the world doing their thing. They make it look easy. I couldn't drive an F1 car like that. I probably could barely get it round a lap in one piece. The extreme performance and precision required makes just the driving aspect of F1 interesting in its own right.

 

Then F1 has interest in that it has drivers from all over the world, often with different backgrounds in racing. The cars they race are bespoke prototypes, which teams build a new one of each year. Technical innovation is seen all the time. Already this year we have the dual axis steering system from Mercedes.

 

Then there's the host of different tracks with different characteristics, all with different challenges.

 

Someone ignorant might ask what is interesting about a bunch of fat blokes driving identical boxes around 1.5 mile ovals. But I appreciate that NASCAR has its own areas of interest, even if it is currently blighted by stupid rules such as nonsensical championship format and races with mandatory caution periods.

[hodgy21]

Onboard With Valtteri Bottas For The Fastest Lap Of The First Pre-Season Test
https://www.youtube....h?v=YI53LYZm0xE

Car skill 95%
Driver skill 5%

That Mercedes is on rails. Where's driver factor? What are we watching here race of drivers or race of cars (engineers)?


Don't be hars here's Nascar fan

Driving skill.
Engineering.
Aerodynamics.

These are the subjects I am interested in and Formula 1 has each of them in spades. That is why I love it.

Passionate fans are part and parcel of this game as well, and while the majority are a great addition to the circus, I distinctly do not like the ones that moan incessantly and start slinging mud when their team/driver is not winning.

These are the pros and cons as far as I see them.

[Beamer]

Onboard With Valtteri Bottas For The Fastest Lap Of The First Pre-Season Test
https://www.youtube....h?v=YI53LYZm0xE

Car skill 95%
Driver skill 5%

That Mercedes is on rails. Where's driver factor? What are we watching here race of drivers or race of cars (engineers)?


Don't be hars here's Nascar fan

Might want to do a bit of research first. There's plenty of footage out there of more mortals trying to do a single lap in an f1 car. And that's not even trying to find that last .1 of a second (that's about 6 sec in a race btw, so worth finding)

[Sterzo]

Car skill 95%

Driver skill 5%

 

There speaks a man who has never driven a F1 car. Don't know your skills Branislav, but I would be prepared to bet you and I wouldn't get within 20% of Bottas's lap time.

[Branislav]

It's not about ordinary people never said that I said drivers licensed professional race car drivers. You and me would never jump into F1 car or Nascar car and be on pace with them or have balls to compete.

 

Anyway point is, is too much about cars. I remember in past David Coulthard once said it's 70% car and 30% driver. Now it is even greater on car side. I think it should be 50/50.

[red stick]

Can we just kill this one?

 

Now?

[ATM]

We could, but unfortunately for all to us he does have a point. I think we all agree that all F1 drivers are head and shoulders above our normal driving capabilities, but current cars are too similar to the 2013 ones, which went on rails too, just before a big rule shake-up.

Remember how nervous the 2014 machines were? Now that was a year in which driver input was far more valuable than now. Let’s just hope 2021 brings more “feel” from he drivers on the track.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, but I reckon I could do a qualifying lap at Daytona in a Cup car. Foot flat to the floor and hold on.

[MirNyet]

F1 cars don't even have that much traction under certain speeds, and if you go to slow, the brakes won't work either.

[SonGoku]

Well, what is fun of driving around in circles, crashing into eachother and empty stands? I tried to watch it a few times and I am shocked people can watch that for hours and hours.

[ATM]

In all honesty, the fastest I’ve ever driven is 205 km/h on an empty 3-lane straight highway (+ emergency lane, of course), and only for a couple of km. The idea of driving with 300 km/h and brake to make a turn is as alluring to me as a wet socks sandwich...which is why I’ll let professionals do it. But I’ll still ask they work more for it, as today it’s all push buttons, push buttons, push buttons. It’s like racing the Jetsons way.

[Branislav]

Yeah, but I reckon I could do a qualifying lap at Daytona in a Cup car. Foot flat to the floor and hold on.

And in pack?

[PayasYouRace]

And in pack?

 

That would be scary, but I was going for a like for like comparison with Bottas hot lap that you posted.

[Branislav]

Well, what is fun of driving around in circles, crashing into eachother and empty stands? I tried to watch it a few times and I am shocked people can watch that for hours and hours.

It's not about that comparison. I notice this and i hear what some drivers said about this (70/30) 20 years ago.

[Branislav]

That would be scary, but I was going for a like for like comparison with Bottas hot lap that you posted.

Okay but you picked Daytona where's pedal to the metal. Pick some other track oval where's not full throttle. I don't think you gotta chance.

[hansmann]

It's not about ordinary people never said that I said drivers licensed professional race car drivers. You and me would never jump into F1 car or Nascar car and be on pace with them or have balls to compete.

 

Anyway point is, is too much about cars. I remember in past David Coulthard once said it's 70% car and 30% driver. Now it is even greater on car side. I think it should be 50/50.

 

I think you might be confusing a few things .

The drivers are still doing the driving , 100% of it .

 

Now being competitive in a specific car, that's a different story .

 

F1 does not just have a drivers championship, but also a constructors / team championship .

Ever since there was racing, in a non-spec series, the car's competence was crucial to any driver's success .

 

So what exactly are you asking for ?

 

Same car for everyone in F1 - nope .

Regulations tightened , spending cuts, to get teams closer together re. performance - good point .

Aero, fueling and tyre regs etc. adjusted for closer racing , less demand on the drivers to manage resources, to allow them to push harder for longer during a race - great idea .

 

Is it something like that you meant to say, or are you just throwing around completely meaningless figures and percentages , without any context ?

[PayasYouRace]

Okay but you picked Daytona where's pedal to the metal. Pick some other track oval where's not full throttle. I don't think you gotta chance.

 

Yeah but there's no track in F1 that I could even imagine doing a lap for real.

 

Anyway, you done with your NASCAR inferiority complex?

[Branislav]

I think you might be confusing a few things .

The drivers are still doing the driving , 100% of it .

 

 

You miss the football.

 

@payas I'm done.

[jonpollak]

Ill have the prons (sic)
With olive oil, white wine and lots of garlic please.

Jp

[Heyli]

Onboard With Valtteri Bottas For The Fastest Lap Of The First Pre-Season Test

https://www.youtube....h?v=YI53LYZm0xE

 

Car skill 95%

Driver skill 5%

 

That Mercedes is on rails. Where's driver factor? What are we watching here race of drivers or race of cars (engineers)?

 

 

Don't be hars here's Nascar fan

 

Both? You still have the intra-team battles and you of course also have the fact that cars have there own specialty circuits.

 

Would be nice if the teams were a bit closer, but the car development is simply a part of the sport. I´m not following Indy or Nascar, but I can assume that the discussions on what´s happening with the cars is not really happening there? What´s the discussions and speculations you get there arround testing and before a race weekend?

[Branislav]

Example...

 

 

Hamilton calls for F1 cars to be harder to drive and "more physical"

https://www.crash.ne...r-drive-f1-cars

[pRy]

Perhaps this is an illustration of what 50/50 looked like. Or something close to it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=auXfAHHNSFo

 

The number of times Senna had to correct the car over just that one single lap is probably about the same number of times Bottas or Hamilton have to do it across an entire race distance. Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration. But the difference is clear. 

[Ellios]

Driving skill.

Bravery.
Engineering.
Aerodynamics.

These are the subjects I am interested in and Formula 1 has each of them in spades. That is why I love it.

Passionate fans are part and parcel of this game as well, and while the majority are a great addition to the circus, I distinctly do not like the ones that moan incessantly and start slinging mud when their team/driver is not winning.

These are the pros and cons as far as I see them.

 

Just added one to your great list, I hope you don't mind  

[chrisj]

It's not about ordinary people never said that I said drivers licensed professional race car drivers. You and me would never jump into F1 car or Nascar car and be on pace with them or have balls to compete.

 

Anyway point is, is too much about cars. I remember in past David Coulthard once said it's 70% car and 30% driver. Now it is even greater on car side. I think it should be 50/50.

 

I agree with you 100% that it should be 50/50 car and driver, but I don't think the teams want drivers to have that much power. A ratio like that would make the sport way more popular.

[MKSixer]

I always find these conversations difficult to fathom.  Most people couldn't get a extremely high performance car around a Grade One track.  I have several hundred of laps at CoTA and and I KNOW I couldn't get an Formula One car around the track.  

 

Why can't people recognize and appreciate that they are watching 20 of the top drivers in the world in a pivotal time of the sport when one of the most iconic records in all of sports may be equaled.  I just don't understand it.

[Ellios]

 

This driving round in circles is easy ! 

 

[MKSixer]

Perhaps this is an illustration of what 50/50 looked like. Or something close to it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=auXfAHHNSFo

 

The number of times Senna had to correct the car over just that one single lap is probably about the same number of times Bottas or Hamilton have to do it across an entire race distance. Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration. But the difference is clear. 

I don't think those cars had power steering and there is a difference between kickback in the steering wheel, which is masked by a power system, vs corrections.   Here is the HAM 2019 pole lap.  Notice the corrections.

 

[Marklar]

^ also the onboards from the past would look quite different if the cameras had todays technology.

Given the much larger performance gaps between cars in the past and the fact that nobody ever won the title with a clear car deficit (except of Keke Rosberg under very special circumstances) the importance of the driver wasnt much bigger than nowadays

[Kalmake]

Could we stop with the percentages. At least base them on some metric so they mean something.

[Ellios]

 

When you want to be really good at your job. 

[BuddyHolly]

It was not always like this, only in the last decade or so has it "dumbed down" to the point that a 16 year old could leave school,  enter F1 and drive at  competitive speeds.  (no offense intended to 16 year olds btw)  it sucks but I don't see it changing in the foreseeable future sadly.  The days of drivers with huge balls, dragging the car around by the scruff of the neck are long gone and F1 is so much worse for it.

[rocque]

Given the much larger performance gaps between cars in the past and the fact that nobody ever won the title with a clear car deficit (except of Keke Rosberg under very special circumstances) the importance of the driver wasnt much bigger than nowadays

Modern Formula 1 exterminates unpredictable results. 

There were more wet races in the past, more 'carnage' races, cars were more unreliable, refuelling caused some chaos sometimes, driver in a weaker car could defend against driver in a faster... et cetera.

Podiums are for wider range of drivers - compare them, not the titles.

[P123]

It was not always like this, only in the last decade or so has it "dumbed down" to the point that a 16 year old could leave school,  enter F1 and drive at  competitive speeds.  (no offense intended to 16 year olds btw)  it sucks but I don't see it changing in the foreseeable future sadly.  The days of drivers with huge balls, dragging the car around by the scruff of the neck are long gone and F1 is so much worse for it.

Yeah... and that sort of complaint is about 30 years old! Still bullshit.

Of course, it is more entertaining to see drivers fighting the cars, but on the flipside a smaller margin to make a difference means to do so a driver has to be ever more precise. It's not an accident that a trend of one driver excelling over another still remains, contrary to the idea that you could plunk any 16 year old in it.

As for the drivers having no work to do as complained about above... well that is also bullshit. It's different to the past, but unless they know the various options available to them and when to use them, and as ever manage fuel and tyres and run a strategy.  Which is nothing new either, despite some believing that only started the past few years.

Basically, this topic is misguided, with a healthy dose of rose tintedness for the past and a desire to be a curmudgeon about the present.

[Branislav]

"Formula 1 cars are very sophisticated technology driven cars." "And Juan Pablo is a racer, more than a driver."

 

Who said that 

Edited by Branislav, 23 February 2020 - 01:31.

[MasterOfCoin]

Perhaps this is an illustration of what 50/50 looked like. Or something close to it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=auXfAHHNSFo

 

The number of times Senna had to correct the car over just that one single lap is probably about the same number of times Bottas or Hamilton have to do it across an entire race distance. Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration. But the difference is clear. 

But then again you're talking about one of the best cars at the time, being driving by one of the best drivers.......So that's just like what we have today......imagine driving one of the cars at the back like the Minardi, it would be frightful....

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 23 February 2020 - 01:49.

[MKSixer]

And lets not bring in driver fitness.  

 

When I was a pre-teen:  James Hunt smoking a cigarette and having a beer before jumping into the car.  And Alan Jones.

 

Now:  Multiple specialty team to manage nutrition, cardio, strength training, flexibility training, reflex training, etc.

 

Oh...were the cars pulling 5 or 6 Gs in the most strenuous corners back the day?  I'm not certain.

[Ijsman]

That Mercedes is on rails. Where's driver factor? What are we watching here race of drivers or race of cars (engineers)?

What you are watching here is not racing. It’s testing, where the engines are turned down, drivers arent driving at 100%, and have less pressure. They arent on the limit here, so it looks on rails.

Watch Charles Leclercs singapore pole lap from last year to see what racing on the limit in an F1 car looks like.

[kumo7]

Brainslav, I believe you owe the explanation as to why you saw 95% is the car and 5% is the driver skill.

Kinda agree, and kinda disagree.

We all tend to disagree when your favorite wins and agree when your favorite lose.

[HeadFirst]

Well, what is fun of driving around in circles, crashing into eachother and empty stands? I tried to watch it a few times and I am shocked people can watch that for hours and hours.

 

You are forgetting the BBQ factor.

[jonpollak]

Who fixed the damn thread title?
Now my hysterical post makes no sense.

Jeez...
Jp

[Anderis]

I found F1 interesting because it used to be a highly unpredictable sport. For example, in football (soccer) match, if one team is leading 4-0, you pretty much know the final result already. In F1, a driver could always crash out or have a mechanical failure even if he was leading with 2 laps advantage, so there was potential for big surprises at every moment of every race. Weather conditions could change leaving many drivers on the wrong tyres or a SC car could massively advantage or disadvantage certain drivers. Possibilities for turning the race upside down were limitless, unlike at many other sports where, under certain circumstances, there are not many ways in which they can provide sensational outcomes.

Unfortunately, driver mistakes seem much less frequent these days and reliability doesn't influence race results much anymore. There are few botched strategies and the car development and setups are so finely tuned that the pecking order doesn't change much from race to race and even from season to season recently. Drivers, engineers and mechanics are so professional nowadays and have such great tools and facilities at their disposal that they no longer seem to be at their limit, let alone sometimes over it- which leads to fewer mistakes on all fronts and less variety and undpredictability. I find F1 nowhere near as interesting as in the past and it reflects in the amount of time I spend following it.

[Branislav]

Brainslav, I believe you owe the explanation as to why you saw 95% is the car and 5% is the driver skill.

Kinda agree, and kinda disagree.

We all tend to disagree when your favorite wins and agree when your favorite lose.

Then you disagree I don't care.

 

I have right to my opinion!

 

And it's not Hamilton's complex as I said I noticed this ~20 years ago. That's why I started watching IndyCar and later Nascar. But nevermind. Think what you want.

[Branislav]

And lets not bring in driver fitness.  

 

When I was a pre-teen:  James Hunt smoking a cigarette and having a beer before jumping into the car.  And Alan Jones.

 

Now:  Multiple specialty team to manage nutrition, cardio, strength training, flexibility training, reflex training, etc.

 

Oh...were the cars pulling 5 or 6 Gs in the most strenuous corners back the day?  I'm not certain.

HAAS F1 TEAM DRIVER GROSJEAN SAYS GO-KARTING IS HARDER THAN DRIVING AN F1 CAR

 

He thinks all the saving of fuel and tires in Formula 1 has made the sport less demanding

 

Haas F1 Team driver Romain Grosjean says even go-karting is now more physically demanding than racing in Formula 1.

In Canada last weekend, five-time world champion Lewis Hamilton said F1 used to be "a man's sport."

"Sometimes you do these races now and you could get up and probably do two or three races more. Formula 1 should not be like that," Hamilton said.

 

Grosjean agrees.

"Recently I did a go-kart race with friends. 125cc with gearshift," Grosjean said. "And I was more tired than after a Grand Prix," Grosjean said. "Why? Because you are pushing all the time. But in F1, we are saving fuel and also the tires. In Barcelona, it felt like we were driving at 50 percent of the car's capacity.

"If the race was like qualifying, then our necks would be totally gone in the end. We would be tired and our focus would disappear. But constantly saving petrol and tires means it is not so difficult for us."

[PayasYouRace]

Well despite the thread title suggesting that it might be an opportunity for people to explain why they find F1 interesting, it's obvious that this is just a soapbox for one poster to put down anything that isn't their favourite sport.

 

Try harder next time.