24 replies to this topic

[desmo]

I found this on Ford Racing's website:

"The next year[1994], Benetton received the latest engine creation from Ford and Cosworth, the Zetec R V8. This one incorporated all the latest technology, including the application of ceramics to the cylinder head, hollow titanium valves, titanium connecting rods and magnesium alloy pistons."

Now I know back in pre WWII days Mg alloy pistons were pretty normal stuff in racing engines, but is anyone aware of any other instances of Mg pistons in more modern F1 applications? And why is the material so feared by most engineers for structural applications other than wheels and gearbox cases? Mario Ilien in his recent Racetech interview basically said he wanted nothing to do wih Mg.

[desmo]

Yeah I remember that. It really bombed. Was Mario working at Cosworth then? That would probably explain his Mg-phobia.

[Ray Bell]

I think it was Tyrrell had first bite at the Magnesium Cosworth cherry... big warm-up procedure, from memory.

[david_martin]

The Cosworth DFY, which Williams, Tyrrell and McLaren ran in 1983 and Tyrrell continued with in 1984 (and which won a GP in the hands of the late Michele Alboreto) used a Magnesium Block IIRC.

[karlcars]

I wouldn't say that magnesium was well known as a piston material before WWII or indeed at any time for any types of car. The material was pioneered for racing by the Maserati brothers in the late 1920s. In Germany it was known as 'Elektron', because its use was carefully controlled by a group that licensed its alloys. This in fact has continued to be the case until quite recently.

Mercedes tried a magnesium block for its 1954-55 GP engines, but was not happy with the material's stability. It is great for covers and less-stressed parts of engines, but there aren't many of those in today's F1 engine! I am just not aware of successful uses of it as a piston material. The Cosworth reference is an interesting one in that context.

[desmo]

Thanks for the correction David, I had remembered the Mg-block Cossie as a flop, which it apparently was not.

A little web searching brought up these reports:

Tommy Milton won the Indianapolis 500 in 1921 driving a Frontenac- designed and built by Louis Chevrolet- fitted with Mg-alloy pistons.

The Bugatti-Breuget U-16 Type U.24 aero engine apparently was fitted with Mg-alloy pistons in 1921.

In 1926, Elektronmetal Cannstadt began producing die-cast magnesium pistons of which 4 million were on the market in 1937.

Some Subaru 4G63 engines for Lancers and Imprezas came eqipped with Mg-alloy piston sets.

BMW engineers have published research on Mg-alloy fiber reinforced MMCs for engine internals including pistons.

It appears to me that there is nothing intrinsically unsuitable with Mg-alloys for piston applications, although automotive engineers seem reluctant to apply them.

As recently as 1997- prior to the introduction of the now-banned AlBeMet- Mario Ilien stated they were still using RR58 alloy for their F1 pistons, this alloy developed by Rolls-Royce for their famous Merlin aero engine of WWII! Is material technology really that stagnant or are racing engine people just an incredibly conservative lot?

[Roger Clark]

THe first magnesium block DFV was in the Cosworth car of 1969.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by desmo
...Mario Ilien stated they were still using RR58 alloy for their F1 pistons, this alloy developed by Rolls-Royce for their famous Merlin aero engine of WWII! Is material technology really that stagnant or are racing engine people just an incredibly conservative lot?

And you of all people, des!

Perhaps it's the best bet with the stresses they're punching out... after all, you'd hardly say that the Merlin turned excessive revs.

Roger... yes, I recall that being mentioned previously.. I was talking about customers, and I seem to recall reading much more about Tyrrell than any others... maybe they were slower getting them into cars for races?

[desmo]

Cosworth car of 1969? Do tell. I can't recall ever hearing of it. Was it an F1 car?

[desmo]

Ray I am profoundly amazed by the conservatism of F1 engineers when it comes to engine materials.

John Judd from Racetech magazine 1998:

"I think that still universal in F1 are nitrided steel cranks, Ti two-bolt con rods, multi-phased bolts, RR58 Al pistons and steel gudgeon pins retained by round wire circlips.

"People say that current performance is possible due to advances in materials but I don't think that is the case. If you look at what we couldn't have before the war, I don't suppose you could of had the PTFE seals for the airsprings, so the airsprings wouldn't have worked back then. Multi-phased bolts would not have been around.

"Ti? Maybe not but it was certainly around in the 60s. We had some Ti rods for the Coventry Climax engine in 1963. It is quite likely that that by 1963 the other things I mentioned were available."

I think that with the current ban on AlBeMet, those words are substantially still true today, although I don't think superior alpha/beta Ti alloys currently used such as 6Al/4V were available for non-military use then, the Ti rods of the 60s being CP (Commercially Pure) or similar spec.

At least one F1 engineer I've talked to is working on MMCs for piston and intake valve applications, but as of the start of this season they hadn't been used at a race yet.

[Ray Bell]

Surely you can use search to find it, pictures on a couple of threads of the Cosworth GP car, AIR.

Interesting stuff, des...

[desmo]

Ray, I couldn't find mention of it through the search BB feature, just too many mentions of Cosworth and no other terms I could think of to narrow down the results. Did it have a model number or name? What drivers were associated with it? Did it race? I was following F1 in '69 to some extent and I can't recall it. Also did the Mg block DFV have a designation to differentiate it from the Al block version?

[Ray Bell]

Sorry, des, I can't find it... anyone can help with a pic of the Cosworth 4WD?

You'll remember it soon as you see it, very angular bits of bodywork in plain aluminium...

The Mg engine was the DFY, I think that's mentioned above too.

[desmo]

As far as I can ascertain the Cosworth 4WD F1 car was never raced. The DFY was apparently a short-stroke DF with a narrower included valve angle designed by Ilien and introduced in 1983, although mention is made of Mg intake plumbing. I still can find no official designation for the Mg alloy block DFV, or indeed anything else about it.

I did get more on the Zetec pistons, those being specified as: "out of a magnesium-nickel-copper-alloy".

[Ray Bell]

Somebody gave DFY as the Mg engine designation in the 'Finances of the DFV' thread. Maybe they were wrong?

No, the car never raced, it was tested, however.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by karlcars
Mercedes tried a magnesium block for its 1954-55 GP engines, but was not happy with the material's stability.

The 1938-39 Delahaye 4.5 litre GP cars used magnesium blocks and they managed to beat Mercedes-Benz at Pau 1938. Could that car have inspired Daimler Benz to try magnesium in 1954-55?

[Ray Bell]

The magnitude of M-B doing this has to be understood, of course. Their engines were fabricated from the crankcase up, steel waterjacketing, bores etc all welded together in sets of four... or was it three?

Or was the Mg contemplated for the cast crankcase section... or the block of the Sports Car engine?

[karlcars]

It was tried for the cast crankcase in the Mercedes GP engine for the sake of weight reduction. I think durability would have ruled it out of consideration for the sports cars. The welded cylinders of the post-war engine were in blocks of four.

Robin Herd left McLaren to design the 4x4 Cosworth Grand Prix car. It was indeed tested but proved hopeless. It is in Tom Wheatcroft's museum.

Interesting info on Mg piston uses and on the Delahaye. I'm sure that wasn't an inspiration!

[Ray Bell]

I have a pic of the Cosworth car here, who'll volunteer to post it while my picture posting ability is on the blink?

Those blocks, Karl, were they fabricated as monobloc arrangements, with head and block in one? I have a notion they are, but I may be wrong...

[desmo]

http://members.atlas.../desmo/cos2.bmp

Ray emailed me this pic. Sorry about the 100KB filesize, it's a bitmap image rather than the more usual jpg or gif and they run really large.

[karlcars]

Ray, the Mercedes cylinder blocks were 'monoblocs' in that the cylinders and the head were made in one piece. The cylinders were steel forgings and the water jackets were welded around them. Mercedes had made its racing engines this way since 1934 at least. This applies to the GP car; the 300SLR had two aluminum cylinder blocks, also with integral heads.

Interesting that photo of the GP Cosworth. I'd forgotten that it had its fuel tanks so far out to the sides. This was in fact a pet notion of Bruce McLaren's. He thought that his sports cars handled better than his GP cars and that a reason for it was the weight of the fuel tanks placed well out to the sides. Looks like Robin Herd might have recalled that when he designed the Cosworth.

[desmo]

Interestingly while doing research on the DFY, I found two seperate mentions of it's having "integral heads." Surely this doesn't mean the heads were one piece with the block like the old Mercedes engines? And if that is the case, surely then this was the ultimate use of that technique in a racing engine? When was the most recently produced monobloc racing engine anyone here is aware of?

[BRG]

The Hart turbo engine that Toleman used was defintiely monobloc, which was developed because they couldn't keep a head gasket in it with the pressures that it used.

[fines]

The Hart 415T is the last monobloc engine I'm aware of, the Zakspeed wasn't, IIRC.

[desmo]

http://www.honda.co..../photo/342.jpeg