491 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Every little innovation is stifled. Regulations are all aimed to stiffen aero race and to ensure conformity like 2022 new cars. 

 

That was pretty much the same in 1996. Yeah the shapes were a bit easier to tell apart, but the rules were similarly constrictive and innovation was stifled just as much.

 

Aero flip ups in front of rear wheels? Banned. Pointed noses? Banned. X-wings? Banned.

[Francesc]

Shame that Badoer retired, that was his best chance for points so far in his career.  Surely only a matter of time though.  Ferrari are quite keen on him for instance.

 

I believe he was 5 laps behind the others. No chance for him I think.

[Bleu]

I believe he was 5 laps behind the others. No chance for him I think.

 

6 laps. Villeneuve ended with 66 and Badoer with 60 in the race.

 

He wasn't that slow but I think he spent about three laps in the pit lane during the period when everyone was changing to slicks.

[Risil]

3 laps! The Forti mechanics must've been filling in the tread of the wet tyres with extra rubber.

[messy]

Luca Badoer will always be fascinating to me. He moved into single seaters and within three years he was rookie F3000 champion, defeating Barrichello, Coulthard and Panis by a distance. He was a seriously impressive prospect at one time. He’s gonna be forever a laughing stock for his Ferrari races but...ten years out of competition, he was never going to do a thing. Especially in a year where the entire field was sometimes split by a second. Fisichella did nowt either.

[Anuity]

I think he was doing quite good during his Minardi stint, at least from what I remember. He was set to score points in Melbourne and Nurburgring 99 and generally looked a lot better than Gene. But ironically, Gene at least got to drive a decent car during his still young years - 2004.

It's a pity Badoer never got a chance to drive a good car during his prime.

 

I don't think there anything to laugh about his 2009 performance, it was 10 years, and he was pretty old by then. It was expected. Just like with Kubica.

 

As for Panis I always thought he was a very, very good driver, it is a shame he had that accident in Canada, otherwise I am sure he would have won a race in 1997. Could be in fact a bit like Frentzen in 1999.

[Izzyeviel]

Panis was WDC material, sadly he was never the same after Canada.

[Anuity]

Panis was WDC material, sadly he was never the same after Canada.

 I am not sure about WDC, but he was very good. I think could have had a career like Rubens or DC. Which is quite good by itself.

[Risil]

Yeah, Rubens pre-Ferrari had similar standout drives, although from memory I think he crashed a bit more than Panis. Better qualifier though.

[JHSingo]

Didn't watch it 'live' earlier, but just caught up. Even though I've seen it before, it made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Good memories of a purer time.

 

Also, someone really needs to bring back the white or gold wheels again. The Ferrari with gold wheels would look sweet.

[Anuity]

Didn't watch it 'live' earlier, but just caught up. Even though I've seen it before, it made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Good memories of a purer time.

 

Also, someone really needs to bring back the white or gold wheels again. The Ferrari with gold wheels would look sweet.

I always thought those gold wheels on Ferrari and white ones on Benetton looked super cool. Sauber alsoused to have some cool wheels.

Actually, after watching this race again I kind of liked how the cars looked (always disliked them), but there was some noticieable variation.

Oh well, I guess it's just a nostalgia feeling.

[MikeV1987]

Really enjoyed that. Irvine was a moving obstacle for the whole race.

[paulb]

What an exciting, unpredictable race. Panis sure was reserved in victory.

Great to see rain. Reminded that Irvine could be Trulli’s spiritual predecessor. Thrilled to see little guys getting points.

+1 to Anuity’s recommendation to bring back white other other colored wheels.

[Myrvold]

Luca Badoer will always be fascinating to me. He moved into single seaters and within three years he was rookie F3000 champion, defeating Barrichello, Coulthard and Panis by a distance. He was a seriously impressive prospect at one time. He’s gonna be forever a laughing stock for his Ferrari races but...ten years out of competition, he was never going to do a thing. Especially in a year where the entire field was sometimes split by a second. Fisichella did nowt either.

He arguably was the better driver of him and Alboreto in 93 as well, but it was Alboreto who got the Minardi seat for 94, where he ended up scoring a point. He did get the Minardi seat for 95 though, the year they had a deal with Mugen-Honda, and had already completed their new car-design based on the Mugen-Honda. Just for Briatore, Walkinshaw & Company doing their ususal type of business and got the engines for Ligier, leaving Minardi with no engine-deal, then they got a deal with Ford for one of the underpowered customer engines. Granted Minardi got Magnet Marelli to develop an own engine management system which beefed the engine up a bit from the standard one that Pacific had, but it would still have 50-70HP less than the Mugen-Honda engine it was originally designed for. So they had to do another design, for the new engine, which obviously was done in a much shorter time. The car was quite good though, with Minardi qualifying solidly mid-pack 16-19 more often than not, with Badoer even going to the upper half a couple of times. In the end the car lacked serious power, they ended up scoring once though, with Pedro Lamy in Australia, an attrition-filled race where Badoer, of course one might said, wasn't even able to take the start due to technical issues.
96 is well known, as is 99.

However, 99 might be even worse than many think. Badoer spent a long time in the pits at a pit-stop, which very well can have been a large factor in his gearbox packing it up. Even worse, someone at f1rejects spent time looking at laptimes etc. And found that with a normal pit-stop, Badoer would've been around, and slightly ahead of Trulli in the race. So not only did he have his Minardi well inside the points when it stopped working, if it hadn't been for a botched pitstop, there's a chance the gearbox would've kept going, and Badoer would've had the Minardi in 2nd.

 

I don't think Badoer would've been WDC material even if he was groomed in a top team for a ride in his prime years. But the man had talent, he had speed. He should've been allowed to finish out 2009, in hindsight it didn't help much with Fisichella. But most of all, he seemed to lack all kinds of luck.

Edited by Myrvold, 05 April 2020 - 01:18.

[wj_gibson]

I think what really hurt Badoer's career was that Ferrari picked Salo ahead of him to replace Schumacher in the second half of '99, despite Badoer being Ferrari's test driver.

[Myrvold]

IIRC he did have some chances in the early 00's for a race seat, but none of them were interesting enough for him to leave his test-driver job at Ferrari for. After all, he did get to drive the fastest F1 cars of its time for thousands of laps.

[Boing 2]

Yeah, Rubens pre-Ferrari had similar standout drives, although from memory I think he crashed a bit more than Panis. Better qualifier though.

 

He was P3 at the infamous Donnington race in his rookie season until the car gave up.

[Boing 2]

3 laps! The Forti mechanics must've been filling in the tread of the wet tyres with extra rubber.

To be fair, it takes ages to get those tyres off the rims..

[SpeedRacer`]

He was P3 at the infamous Donnington race in his rookie season until the car gave up.

 

Rubens admitted that the car ran out of fuel in a podcast recently. It was still impressive but he was running around with a significant weight advantage.

[Boing 2]

Rubens admitted that the car ran out of fuel in a podcast recently. It was still impressive but he was running around with a significant weight advantage.

Was it a Beyond the Grid interview?

[PayasYouRace]

Rubens admitted that the car ran out of fuel in a podcast recently. It was still impressive but he was running around with a significant weight advantage.

 

He made it six laps from the end. So that wasn't a particularly significant advantage. It's a fair miscalculation from the team, but it's not like he was on half tanks with no intention of finishing.

[Pingguest]

Really enjoyed that. Irvine was a moving obstacle for the whole race.

 

A "Trulli train" avant la lettre.

[Jops14]

I think he was doing quite good during his Minardi stint, at least from what I remember. He was set to score points in Melbourne and Nurburgring 99 and generally looked a lot better than Gene. But ironically, Gene at least got to drive a decent car during his still young years - 2004.

It's a pity Badoer never got a chance to drive a good car during his prime.

 

I don't think there anything to laugh about his 2009 performance, it was 10 years, and he was pretty old by then. It was expected. Just like with Kubica.

 

As for Panis I always thought he was a very, very good driver, it is a shame he had that accident in Canada, otherwise I am sure he would have won a race in 1997. Could be in fact a bit like Frentzen in 1999.

Wasnt it Alesi who absolutely slated Ferrari for picking Salo? It still seems like such a bizarre choice, he looked good in the Minardi and was driving the Ferrari regularly. He would have come away with a few podiums from there and suddenly his whole career could have been different.

 

Also agree on the Panis stuff, he never seemed to be the same driver after Canada 97, similiar to Massa in 2009.

 

Also hindsight with these old races is great, so funny to hear Murray saying HHF is rated by some to be as good as Schumacher if given the right car. Only to be utterly destroyed by JV the next season.

[Risil]

It's never occurred to me before but if Panis hadn't barged Eddie off the road at the hairpin, Irvine could actually have won the race despite looking like he was steering a boat around the track.

[MikeV1987]

Eddie had it coming by just being a road block. I was also surprised to learn that the tv director was still **** back then too, is it the same guy?

[Boing 2]

As far as I'm concerned it's just reward for Monza 94.

[noriaki]

Eddie had it coming by just being a road block.

Irvine was defending, fair and square. Thought it was pretty naughty by Panis and not at all Eddie's fault.

[MikeV1987]

Irvine was defending, fair and square. Thought it was pretty naughty by Panis and not at all Eddie's fault.

Suuure. But if you are mobile chicane, eventually the guy behind is going to force his way past.

[noriaki]

Suuure. But if you are mobile chicane, eventually the guy behind is going to force his way past.

If you can't negotiate a chicane without cutting it, then you should get a penalty for the offence. Same should go for mobile chicanes, you shouldn't be able to just barge people out of the way.

I feel if the roles were reversed and Irvine had barged Panis out of the way to go on and win the race, everybody would remember it as a scandal. Now it's seen somehow justified which baffles me.

[Anuity]

If you can't negotiate a chicane without cutting it, then you should get a penalty for the offence. Same should go for mobile chicanes, you shouldn't be able to just barge people out of the way.

I feel if the roles were reversed and Irvine had barged Panis out of the way to go on and win the race, everybody would remember it as a scandal. Now it's seen somehow justified which baffles me.

Imagine if it was Schumacher pushing through like this? People would go bananas. 

[PayasYouRace]

Eddie had it coming by just being a road block. I was also surprised to learn that the tv director was still shit back then too, is it the same guy?

 

Perhaps being a TV director for a live sport with upwards of 20 cameras to work from isn't actually as easy as it looks?

[Risil]

If you can't negotiate a chicane without cutting it, then you should get a penalty for the offence. Same should go for mobile chicanes, you shouldn't be able to just barge people out of the way.

I feel if the roles were reversed and Irvine had barged Panis out of the way to go on and win the race, everybody would remember it as a scandal. Now it's seen somehow justified which baffles me.

 

It's also because it's Monaco, isn't it? Irvine was miles slower than the Ligier and a 50/50 move at the hairpin was the only way through.

[noriaki]

It's also because it's Monaco, isn't it? Irvine was miles slower than the Ligier and a 50/50 move at the hairpin was the only way through.

 

Yeah, I know Monaco has quite different realities of wheel to wheel racing which is why I would just about give Panis the benefit of doubt here. But there's absolutely no blaming Irvine for getting bumped into the wall regardless of how much slower he was. 

 

Bernoldi was a moving chicane in 2001, still wouldn't quite have been on from DC to put him into the barriers. Nor Senna to crash into Mansell in 1992. 

Edited by noriaki, 05 April 2020 - 16:58.

[Risil]

I'd have loved that. But of course DC would've been equally if not more likely to come off worse.

[CoolBreeze]

I think what really hurt Badoer's career was that Ferrari picked Salo ahead of him to replace Schumacher in the second half of '99, despite Badoer being Ferrari's test driver.

I 

never understood this decision. How was Salo connected to Ferrari at that point of time? 

[messy]

I think he was just available and had already raced with BAR that season. It did sort of make sense.

Edited by messy, 06 April 2020 - 08:07.

[FortiFord]

If you can't negotiate a chicane without cutting it, then you should get a penalty for the offence. Same should go for mobile chicanes, you shouldn't be able to just barge people out of the way.

I feel if the roles were reversed and Irvine had barged Panis out of the way to go on and win the race, everybody would remember it as a scandal. Now it's seen somehow justified which baffles me.

 

Ironically, Irvine did do exactly the same thing to Frenzten in the 1998 race (https://youtu.be/1Wr2gU-Mptc?t=25) and there was no scandal. 

 

If you want to overtake at that hairpin then it relies on the guy you are overtaking being compliant. 

[FortiFord]

What shocked me was that it really didn’t play out like my nine year old self remembers it at all. I remember loads of cars retiring (right so far) and Panis just trundling through the middle, slow driver in slow car, tortoise beating the hares through attrition.

What a load of rubbish. He was brilliant, what a performance. He didn’t just collect that win when it came to him, he went out, went hard and went home with a brilliant victory, the way he was setting fastest lap after fastest lap scorching up behind Irvine for instance, the sideways moments, he was just plain fast. Olivier Panis, pre-Canada 1997, was a real racer wasn’t he, and not the solid, unspectacular point gatherer he became regarded as at BAR etc.

 

Agree on this. Part of the problem is that the director missed most of Panis' overtakes. Overall, looking back on it it now, i feel the performance was very reminiscent of Alonso at Valencia 2012. 

[Risil]

Agree on this. Part of the problem is that the director missed most of Panis' overtakes. Overall, looking back on it it now, i feel the performance was very reminiscent of Alonso at Valencia 2012.

 

Mm. Caught the most important one live though, which was Panis barging through on Irvine.

 

I mentioned it during the race, but another thing I really enjoyed was the succession of advertising hoardings for products you hadn't heard of at the time and haven't heard of since. I don't think we can bring them back any more than we can bring back bad haircuts or rock and roll but if F1 is all about tawdry exotica then they fit the bill nicely.

[PayasYouRace]

Agree on this. Part of the problem is that the director missed most of Panis' overtakes. Overall, looking back on it it now, i feel the performance was very reminiscent of Alonso at Valencia 2012. 

 

I suppose that is technically true, because two out of three does qualify as most. Panis only overtook 3 cars on the track. We missed him pass Brundle and Hakkinen.

[wj_gibson]

I suppose you can look to those races in the latter half of ‘97 when the Bridgestones were absolutely the tyre to have (Hungary; Austria; Nurburgring) and wonder where Panis might have ended up in the ‘97 Prost at said events.

[Francesc]

I suppose that is technically true, because two out of three does qualify as most. Panis only overtook 3 cars on the track. We missed him pass Brundle and Hakkinen.

 

We saw the beginning of his move on Brundle exiting the Rascasse but then the Director cut to the next camera as he was following the Irvine train.