28 replies to this topic

[pallas1970]

This is just the most amazing book, an absolute page turner, and full of incredible stories and a detailed and precise account of motoring from the 1920s and beyond. I am interested if others have read it, what they thought, and is there a better motoring autobiography out there, j

[john medley]

What a wonderful opportunity to be able to return to this book. Years since I read it, and I will get it off the shelf immediately. Thanks for the note: I'll get back to you soon.

[Lee Nicolle]

I have seen it and would love to read it. 

[Lola5000]

Well worth reading ,Phil never got the credit he deserved for the Repco period,just to many egos involved.

 

From memory he was a foundation founder of PIARC?

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Phil was there from early times with PIARC...

 

Which reminds me of the night after practice, it must have been the '74 Boxing Day (or New Years Day?) meeting. A few holes had appeared around the track, which was always breaking up. I was told that Len Lukey, had told the club back in '63 when they had to do a big rebuild after the Armstrong 500 destroyed the surface, "You blokes ought to get a boatload of Eyeties in and concrete the whole joint!"

 

Anyway, I was at a loose end, my car didn't need any attention after practice and I'd done visiting anyone left in the pits, but out there in the dark there was a Land Rover with a little team working by its headlights. So I drove around there (still in my racing suit) and offered them a hand. They were mixing fast-setting concrete and patching the holes. And who was the head of the team?

 

Phil Irving.

[john medley]

So, Phil Irving and Len Lukey caused those concrete bumps that unseated me and others at times?

 

Not to divert  this thread, but I recall one Phillip Island conversation I had with Phil. Someone tried to enter that conversation, for Phil to very politely point out in neutral words and tone that he was talking to me and he would finish that conversation before responding to that other person. I was impressed. Another sidelight: we were related by marriage: his wife at that time was from the Victorian branch of the Medley family.

 

The book is off the shelf and ready for my reading!

[D-Type]

Was Phil Irving the man behind the Vincent motor cycle?

[Ray Bell]

That's right...

 

The Vincent HRD, And, of course, he went on tending a few of them used in F3-type hillclimb cars in Australia in the fifties.

 

Complete with durry, of course.

[cooper997]

Phil's copy of the March 1956 PIARC rules

 

 

Stephen

[Lola5000]

Yes, Phil was there from early times with PIARC...

 

Which reminds me of the night after practice, it must have been the '74 Boxing Day (or New Years Day?) meeting. A few holes had appeared around the track, which was always breaking up. I was told that Len Lukey, had told the club back in '63 when they had to do a big rebuild after the Armstrong 500 destroyed the surface, "You blokes ought to get a boatload of Eyeties in and concrete the whole joint!"

 

Anyway, I was at a loose end, my car didn't need any attention after practice and I'd done visiting anyone left in the pits, but out there in the dark there was a Land Rover with a little team working by its headlights. So I drove around there (still in my racing suit) and offered them a hand. They were mixing fast-setting concrete and patching the holes. And who was the head of the team?

 

Phil Irving.

Great tale Ray,I could tell you another PIARC/Irving one and his 80th Birthday and how a certain Formula one driving was asked to give the birthday toast and he asked how much was he being paid,i understand the phone was banged down in his ear ..

[Graeme Louk]

I agree. I really enjoyed reading about this incredibly talented man. A Master of his craft.

[Ray Bell]

A very logical man...

 

He told me that once, when he was involved with something to do with Donald Campbell's LSR attempts on Lake Eyre, he left his Land Rover ticking over. Somebody else on the team came up to him and suggested it wasn't good for the engine to do that.

 

"That's what they're designed to do," he replied.

 

And when the Land Rover got stuck out there and they couldn't get to it, it kept on ticking over until it ran out of fuel.

 

Much later, during the development period of the Holden F5000 engine, they found that the pushrods were bending. "Okay," said Phil, "if they want to bend, let's break them!"

 

His solution was to use two pushrods instead of one and to instal a shuttle in the bore in the head the pushrods went through. The pushrods were nice and stiff then.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Ray Bell, 10 April 2020 - 13:18.

[GreenMachine]

... use two pushrods instead of one and to instal a shuttle in the bore in the head the pushrods went through. The pushrods were nice and stiff then.

.

 

And heavier?  And introducing machining and lubrication requirements ...

 

I know it was a simpler world back then, but that solution doesn't ring true to me - perhaps it was a short term fix while stiffer pushrods were being made/sourced?

[Ray Bell]

They never went back to one-piece pushrods...

 

The bore was always there and it was always full of oil, I don't think the shuttle would have been very heavy, possibly made of aluminium.

[Wirra]

Way out of my league but I remember him on TV questioning the Orbital Engine of Ralph Sarich when all the ballyhoo of it's unveiling was going on.

 

If I recall he questioned whether the componentry could withstand the heat generated. I don't know if that was ultimately why it never caught on. 

[Lee Nicolle]

And heavier?  And introducing machining and lubrication requirements ...

 

I know it was a simpler world back then, but that solution doesn't ring true to me - perhaps it was a short term fix while stiffer pushrods were being made/sourced?

Me too, you can solve the oiling but a decent pushrod will not bend unless the valve train geometry is bad,, or the engine sneezes when cold.

I have been involved with stroker Holdens that turned 8000 rpm with stock pushrods. And never bent one!

Headgaskets though were another thing. The heads had been milled too thin. New Perfectune Alloy heads made about 40hp more and resolved the problem.

My Sports Sedan [Chev] never used any better than Federal Mogul replacement  ballend pushrods and the only trouble I had was pushrod cups being chewed up. Which was the fault of the rocker. Which the manufacturer resolved.  And this with roller cam and rockers. And that ran at 7500 rpm.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 15 April 2020 - 09:34.

[Lee Nicolle]

They never went back to one-piece pushrods...

 

The bore was always there and it was always full of oil, I don't think the shuttle would have been very heavy, possibly made of aluminium.

The only Repco Holden I have seen apart defenitly had one piece pushrods. This 20 years ago.

[john medley]

Out of my league too, but KISS rules and Occam's Razor rules suggest usually the simplest solution is the best solution.

 

Back to the book: Phil's neatly-managed words Page 12 about an early Speech Night which included "a slow-motion exhibition of controlled strength by a very muscular sixth former, which concluded  with his being suspended face-down by his arms from the (horizontal) bar..." may well be the best  version of its type I have read for some time. Phil's sneaky additions( "...like many a strong silent man...) made me laugh lots.

 

Despite some comments that there is too much detail, I am enjoying the book.

 

Thanks for the reminder.

[Ray Bell]

For the doubters...

 

The last person to run a Repco F5000 engine seriously in F5000 was John Goss, and he hesitated about doing further development on the engine because of the 2-piece pushrods. It was the way it was and Phil did it as described. It must have worked because John didn't think of changing that part of it.

[SGM]

It's years since I've read Irving's book but one story always stuck in my mind. During WW2 Irving was tasked with designing a small engine suitable for life rafts. The powers that be wanted an engine that could run any type of fuel available so, as an example, if the occupants came across a ship they could obtain some fuel and keep going. Irving's response? "Well if they came across a ship, wouldn't they be rescued and not need any fuel?" Irving came across as someone who had little time for "chair polishers"

Edited by SGM, 14 April 2020 - 07:11.

[MarkBisset]

Great to have a reminder of this book, I was given a snippet, the pages devoted to RB620 when Rodway Wolfe started my Repco adventure in 2014 with the handover of his Repco Suitcase of goodies to me- it says a lot about the mans life that only 1 of 16 chapters is devoted to ‘his’ world championship! It took me a while to buy it, at great expense to the management it was my Xmas present to self in 2016.

 

I think Phil did get the recognition he deserved in period for RB620 especially in global magazines- indeed, the fact that Irving got so much press outside the Repco PR Dept issued stuff was one of the misdeeds in his direct report, RBE General Manager, Frank Hallam’s mind that led to his scalping in 1966. Without doubt Phil was comprehensively shafted by Hallam for the rest of Hallams life. My view on the Irving/Hallam relationship is towards the end of this article; https://primotipo.co...0-inside-story/

 

It must have been immensely satisfying to Phil to see Matich to win the 1970 AGP at Warwick Farm with the Repco Holden F5000 engined McLaren.

 

When Repco Brabham Engines (the F1, Tasman, Indy and sportscar engines) was wound down, after Jack declared enough at the end of 1968, and Redco (F5000 Repco Holden) was wound up in 1969 Charlie Dean, who was by then Director responsible for the subsidiaries, offered the job of Redco Head to Norman Wilson, (still alive but not well enough to attend the RBE reunion in October 2019) who succeeded Phil as RBE Chief Designer, Norman declined.

 

So Dean appointed Malcom Preston (lovely bloke now deceased) to run the show, he was an engineer but not someone versed in race engines- Dean and Preston turned to the prodigal son, Irving, whose Repco CV went back to Maybach 3 in 1954, he was soon back in Mitchell Street, Maidstone using some of the RBE factory, some of the RBE machine tools and some of the old RBE team from which/whom he was separated in 1966, to design (with Brian Heard, still very alive and well) and build the Repco Holden F5000 engines.

 

Vindication, if it were needed, was soon at hand.

 

Those motors, which in ultimate flat-plane crank 1974/5 spec gave circa 520bhp without losing the truckload of torque they had from the 470bhp start in 1970- won 3 AGPs, 3 Gold Stars, 2 NZ GPs, an L&M round and whatever else

 

Smart Cookie that Mr Irving...

Edited by MarkBisset, 16 April 2020 - 04:13.

[SGM]

Fascinating article Mark. It's interesting what can happen when you get some strong but brilliant minds working together, a bit like some of the great rock bands in history where the friction between the members produced great music. I have read a fair bit on the RB subject and can never understand why Jack Brabham got John Judd involved? Although he always seemed respectful of Irving I can't understand why he would bring in Judd if he was 100% satisfied with what Irving was up to? 

[Ray Bell]

Let's not forget he also went on to do the P76 F5000 project with John McCormack...

 

That, in its final iteration, included the IMC (Irving-McCormack-Comalco) heads which used an experimental alloy which eliminated the need for valve seats (IIRC).

 

A poor bottom end to build it on (as I'm sure Lee is about to tell us), but light weight was an absolute essential for John to make the M23 a winner. And it was a winner, taking out the Gold Star title.

 

And going back to the Repco Holden engine, when the final round of the 1975 Tasman came up, John Walker was in there with a big shot with his Repco-Holden powered Lola T330. The boys at Repco were pretty excited and cobbled up the very best engine they could build in the four days between Adelaide and Sandown. Flat plane crank and all.

 

John told me he had so much power he didn't have to worry about getting a good start. He could round up any car in the field on the straights, it would be easy. And then the car turned left at the top of the back straight on the first lap and it was all over.

[MarkBisset]

Back to SGM’s question about John Judd’s involvement.

 

A long answer...

 

Jack, amongst his many attributes was a really good judge of talent, who, whilst a practitioner of ‘tough love’ tended to attract and retain people- Tim Wall until his death, Roy Billington, Ron Tauranac of course, Reg Thompson, the fellow who managed his affairs in Australia, many of his mechanics, drivers too, all were multi-season deals other than Rindt and Ickx, despite a shitfull 1968 Jochen had re-signed to drive in 1970... Jack had decided JJ was a ‘keeper’ after joining BRO from Climax in 1965 and would benefit from a stint away from the Midlands in the Colonies in a small team with a flat management structure- he arrived in Maidstone in March 1966. (and left at the end of 1967)

 

RBE were tiny, the headcount according to the notes of the 7 September 1966 Management Meeting was 19 people- at the time they were after another 3 tradesmen. Yes they could and did call upon other Repco subsidiaries when they needed components or help but the core team was small.

 

The current race engine knowledge the RBE guys had was that learned from servicing inclusive of making components for the Climax FPF- Judd had worked on the FWMV V8 and had knowledge he could impart to the RBE guys- whether the ‘old bulls’- Irving was 63 and Hallam 47 would listen to the 24 year old whipper-snapper is another thing!

 

The older stagers at Repco had vast practical engineering experience, inclusive of ‘in the paddock’ race meeting stuff, doubtless Jack thought John Judd would benefit from that.

 

Jack had strong to vast knowledge of all the key players at Repco, the CEO Dave McGrath, Dean, Hallam, Irving and others, in his own mind he knew the strengths and weaknesses of the company and the players, it was in his interest, given the long term nature of the Repco play for him to add depth where he felt it was needed- Irving wanted and needed help, don’t forget he drew ALL of RBE620 design drawings- every single drawing.

 

RBE’s numerically controlled ‘CNC’ 2 axis Cincinnati Vertical Acramatic was the first such machine tool in Australia- Jack was there for its handover in early 1966, he probably thought JJ would benefit from exposure to that technology- I wonder if Cosworth had one of those jiggers then? 
 

It is not exactly clear when Irving left Mitchell Street, but Hallam mentions in his book things coming to a head in May- RBE’s first win was at the 14 May BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone so he may not have even been in harness for the first win and was long gone by the time of Jack’s historic French GP win on 3 July.

 

A great shame.

 

RBE had design and construction depth tho- the 740, 860 and 830 (to name only a few) were all great team designs created under the leadership of Norman Wilson, Phil’s successor (separate discussion needed re 860) , the company was not dependent upon one person, which is of course as it should be.

 

RBE’s final BRO international win was that of Peter Revson’s Brabham BT25 Repco 4.2 ‘760’ V8 ‘Indycar’ at the Indianapolis Racing Park on 27 July 1969

[SGM]

Another great read and it all makes sense, thanks. It sounds like you have a good book in the making? I have read somewhere (possibly on here) that RB's machine shop was well ahead of Cosworth during this period in terms of having the latest machine tools.

 

I didn't realise that RB had such a small staff and it makes their achievements all the more impressive. Up to that time, had any other F1 engine supplier designed and built three different engines in three years? Even if they had I highly doubt it would have been with only 19 staff! Throw in two world Championships for good measure and you have an incredible story and I still think this is one of the most amazing achievements in motorsport history worldwide.

 

 It's a shame JB gave up on Repco so quickly after the disappointment of the 860. It may not have been as good as the DFV in the long-term, but during 1967 the DFV had very similar problems to what the 860 encountered in 1968 and there is no reason Repco couldn't have overcome the issues, as had Cosworth. Yes, Cosworth had the might of Ford behind them but if Brabham had stuck by Repco and perhaps used his influence to gain more funding, the 860 might have got a chance to prove itself. 

[Ray Bell]

Phil always reckoned, and you can put this idea down to his fertile brain with a great ability to think outside the square, that the quad-cam engine's problem was that it needed a different lubricant for the top end than the one keeping the rods and pistons smoothly singing along.

 

He also asserted that all the testing, done with Ampol oils, showed none of the failures they had when they ran on the different oil (Gulf?) that was used in Europe.

[GreenMachine]

Phil always reckoned, and you can put this idea down to his fertile brain with a great ability to think outside the square, that the quad-cam engine's problem was that it needed a different lubricant for the top end than the one keeping the rods and pistons smoothly singing along.

 

He also asserted that all the testing, done with Ampol oils, showed none of the failures they had when they ran on the different oil (Gulf?) that was used in Europe.

 

I'd always understood that the stuff in the tins often came from a different supplier, but for (the obvious) commercial reasons was packaged as sponsor's product.  This especially for something as crucial as a fuel or lubricant. Not here it seems.

[MarkBisset]

 Very sad news late yesterday evening from Nigel Tait is that Norman Wilson died in Melbourne 18 April.

 

It was a privilege to meet him at an RBE reunion in October 2016 at which he was frail but mentally as sharp as a tack. As I mentioned a day or so ago he couldn’t make the RBE reunion later in 2019 so we all knew he was not flash.

 

I need to collect my thoughts as to his legacy but suffice it to say that he led the team who designed and built the 1967,1968 and 1969 engines inclusive of his own share on the drawing board- 740, 850, 860, 760, 730, 830 and whatever- the Pontiac engine etc

 

My condolences to his family and the wonderful ‘RBE Boys’ who adored and respected him just as they did Frank Hallam and Phil Irving...

Edited by MarkBisset, 18 April 2020 - 22:17.

[cooper997]

Mark Bisset has sent through this photo of Norman Wilson (left) and Jim Phillips together at the 2016 RBE Reunion.

 

 

My condolences to Norman's family and friends.

 

Stephen