166 replies to this topic

[f12018]

https://twitter.com/...460460546871296

 so dose this lend some credibility to the Rumours that merc are leaving 

   

[alframsey]

I don’t think it means Merc are leaving anytime soon, at least not until the mid 20s, what I do think it confirms is that Wolff is off at the end of the year. Where does that leaves Lewis? He won’t be following him I’m to RP imo and I believe he wants to stay around for the next set of regulations, so he’d sign on with Merc without Wolff as it seems Vettel will be staying at Ferrari. Will Wolff bring some of the top talent at Merc with him to RP? All very interesting tbh.

[messy]

Aston Martin Racing owned by Stroll are going to be either a big player or a big profile failure. They seem to be following the Red Bull model. I keep forgetting that this year (whatever that is) is going to be the final one of Racing Point/Force India.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I wondered what this means for Hamilton - as he has always said his future relies on Toto...

Could we see Hamilton pairing up with Stroll?

I can’t see it personally... anymore than I can see Hamilton in Red...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 19 April 2020 - 09:58.

[FirstnameLastname]

It is a little strange, because despite all the ‘financial investment’ stuff coming from Toto and Mercedes, it was Merc who wanted him to sell his 5% stake in Williams (which he did)

Maybe Stroll is offering big bucks to lure him away, id imagine he’ll set about getting the ‘best of the best’

[Marklar]

Daimler has a stake at Aston Martin too, so I wouldnt take this as anything meaningful for now with regards to Wolff.

As for the question about Hamilton's future: I doubt that any other team becomes a better option with or without Wolff. Might have been a different matter if Wolff would go to Ferrari, but obviously that's not going to happen. Things might of course change if Mercedes pulls out.

For Mercedes it remains 50/50 IMO, depends on how much the coronavirus crisis will wreck things.

[Hakki069]

I personally thinks there's more to the original rumours than meets the eye.

I personally think stroll and wolff will end up taking over the Mercedes team and rename it as Aston Martin as originally rumoured and mercedes will stay on as a partner through the links to Aston Martin.

I just feel it's written in the stars Lewis will race his last few years racing for a British car brand with a German engine in the back. (also means Lewis will keep his connection to mercedes intact) lance will obviously be Lewis teammate.

Stroll will then bin off racing point to highest bidder. Maybe ineos?

I'm probably wrong but it's my gut feeling. Despite daimler needing to cut costs for future electric development. The F1 teams advantage has been through the budget they had to spend on development and of course having all the right people, but with this new budget cap set to come in staff will have to be rid of to balance the books and it will obviously level the playing field which IMHO mercedes board won't be keen on.
The profit they make each year on the F1 teams comes through being number 1 and new rules etc will bring too much uncertainty especially now with the coronavirus.

At the end of the day there's been too many rumours this past year about mercedes possible exit for there not yo be alot of truth to it. if mercedes wanted to make a big statement they would of tied Lewis to a brand new contract already like red-bull and ferrari have with verstappen and Charles

[Beri]

I personally thinks there's more to the original rumours than meets the eye.

I personally think stroll and wolff will end up taking over the Mercedes team and rename it as Aston Martin as originally rumoured and mercedes will stay on as a partner through the links to Aston Martin.

I just feel it's written in the stars Lewis will race his last few years racing for a British car brand with a German engine in the back. (also means Lewis will keep his connection to mercedes intact) lance will obviously be Lewis teammate.

Stroll will then bin off racing point to highest bidder. Maybe ineos?

I'm probably wrong but it's my gut feeling. Despite daimler needing to cut costs for future electric development. The F1 teams advantage has been through the budget they had to spend on development and of course having all the right people, but with this new budget cap set to come in staff will have to be rid of to balance the books and it will obviously level the playing field which IMHO mercedes board won't be keen on.
The profit they make each year on the F1 teams comes through being number 1 and new rules etc will bring too much uncertainty especially now with the coronavirus.

At the end of the day there's been too many rumours this past year about mercedes possible exit for there not yo be alot of truth to it. if mercedes wanted to make a big statement they would of tied Lewis to a brand new contract already like red-bull and ferrari have with verstappen and Charles

And Stroll will let Racing Point fall? And he will take the Aston Martin brand from Racing Point (where it is announced that the team will be renamed to Aston Martin) to Mercedes to also be named Aston Martin?
Nah, I like your thought on Hamilton and so forth. But Mercedes will not be taken over by Stroll.

[KWSN - DSM]

I am not sure what this mean, is there anything to see in

 

"Speaking to Austrian media recently, Wolff said: ""I'm in the eighth year now. I love sports and this team.

 

"However, I am somewhat surprised by the turn of events over the winter and by the behaviour of individual people.

 

"Of course, this also has to do with my decision on what to do in 2020 and beyond."

 

What does he refer to? What does it mean?

 

[TheMessiah]

More chance of Ineos taking over the Mercedes team than Stroll and Toto.

[Hakki069]

Just my opinion at the end of the day but to me there's too many smoking guns going off.

I think when the smoke settles in a few months there could be a few shocks on what f1 will look like in 2021.

The racing point set up isn't set up to win they don't even have there own wind tunnel which for a team wanting to win the championship is quite a big disadvantage already.
Surely the Aston Martin board wouldnt want to be involved in a mercedes b team basis? A car brand would want to be in it to win it.

The links between stroll, wolff, Aston Martin and Mercedes is very interesting there's gotta be more to it than currently being let on

[NixxxoN]

They may aswell rebadge them as Mercedes B-Team, like Toro Rosso, thats the only thing left

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Just my opinion at the end of the day but to me there's too many smoking guns going off.

I think when the smoke settles in a few months there could be a few shocks on what f1 will look like in 2021.

The racing point set up isn't set up to win they don't even have there own wind tunnel which for a team wanting to win the championship is quite a big disadvantage already.
Surely the Aston Martin board wouldnt want to be involved in a mercedes b team basis? A car brand would want to be in it to win it.

The links between stroll, wolff, Aston Martin and Mercedes is very interesting there's gotta be more to it than currently being let on

They could take over the Mercedes chassis factory? If Mercedes pull out as a chassis and PU manufacture...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 19 April 2020 - 11:44.

[H0R]

I have a nagging feeling that this is part if Mercedes's exit strategy. In Germany (probably elsehere too) big comanies try to slim down without laying off employees. If they can suse Aston Martin as a new emplyer (although probably to much worse conditions), the unions will be happy.

[NoForumForOldPole]

If Mercedes ineed wants to pull out - Aston take over is perfect exit strategy - going on a high, with no lay offs, money towards their direction...

Wolff already setup Merc Formula E team, electric is the future, right?

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 19 April 2020 - 12:27.

[Hakki069]

Exactly the fact that mercedes has shares in Aston Martin makes it the perfect for them aswell. Mercedes can pull out and almost keep one foot in the door as such.

I think liberty and the FIA would be more than happy for Aston to replace Mercedes. Takes the dominant team out of F1 and still keep another car manufacturer in the sport going forward..

[Risil]

Mercedes have huge reach and their marketing power would be missed by F1. However if they want to leave, they will.

Aston Martin is a great brand and current troubles aside we'd all like to own one. So there could certainly be worse outcomes for the sport.

All very intriguing and murky anyway.

[Ben1445]

There would be a lot of sense in Merc staying as a PU supplier but shuffling the Brackley over to Aston Martin (who, of course, they supply road engines to anyway) and making the Racing Point outfit an INEOS backed B-Team. 

 

Will they do it? No idea. Sort of doubt they will or if it really is particularly healthy for the sport for them to do so - but with the coronavirus perhaps all bets are off and that line of thinking might only have really been applicable a few weeks ago. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

There would be a lot of sense in Merc staying as a PU supplier but shuffling the Brackley over to Aston Martin (who, of course, they supply road engines to anyway) and making the Racing Point outfit an INEOS backed B-Team.

Will they do it? No idea. Sort of doubt they will or if it really is particularly healthy for the sport for them to do so - but with the coronavirus perhaps all bets are off and that line of thinking might only have really been applicable a few weeks ago.

Depends on the budget cap? As maybe two teams under a budget cap would cost less than the current one team?

[P123]

I think it's more Wolff giving himself an 'out' at Mercedes, whilst having the benefit of teaming up with somebody he is friends with, if he does move elsewhere.  It;s also a handy reminder to Merc that he has options, even if still slightly related to the parent company.  When he talks of individual people, I'm sure one of those will be Kallenius.  Looking just at recent events apparently Kallenius over-ruled him with regards supporting racing in Oz, and also had some influence in removing Merc from the group of teams unhappy at the Ferrari engine ruling. There was also talk of pressure from the Daimler board to commit less money.  So perhaps Toto has less freedom under the new management.

Edited by P123, 19 April 2020 - 14:52.

[MikeV1987]

AM’s shares have dropped in price recently. I just see this as him wanting to make more cash on the side.

Can’t see this really influencing Mercedes other than maybe giving AM a better deal on leasing engines.

Edited by MikeV1987, 19 April 2020 - 15:23.

[Paco]

And lets not forget so many RP fans saying they built the W10b via photos.. cough cough.. sure..  yeah no Chance Toto didn't by accident leave a thumb drive behind for Mr. Stroll to give them a hand on how to build a w10...

 

Toto buys in their team...

 

Hmmm... RedBull now even have more to go on to the FIA and make claims of unfair information sharing between Mercedes and RP...

 

Sad to see that this is the first link in Mercedes leaving the sport.. and soon... I had hoped to see someone legitimately dethrone them through hard work and creativity vs. the mighty bowing out and just handing the crown to someone else..

 

This must certainly give Lewis a big pause in his thinking.. First losing Lauda and now Toto heading in a different direction and propping up someone else..

[MikeV1987]

Toto is not bigger than Mercedes, if he leaves the team will carry on. I don’t buy this Mercedes leaving theory, they have invested so much into the team, and they are arguably the favorites for the next big rule change. It would be foolish to just walk away.

Edited by MikeV1987, 19 April 2020 - 15:32.

[FirstnameLastname]

They are supplying McLaren again soon as well.... maybe they revert back to the Silver Arrows paint job and Merc still keeps a high profile without the main team.

Though I thought the team was relying less and less on money from the Daimler group these days? If F1 pays off for marketing then why depart when they have such a hold over the sport?

[Hakki069]

Certainly no accident that racing pont have a car that looks exactly like a Mercedes from last year. Definitely they had a help in hand. Put together the toto and Aston Martin links, You can see how and why it's happened.

Maybe this is why Mercedes backed out of the Fearri engine saga with the FIA. Maybe Ferrari had info on it and was going to consider a protest against the RP car and Ferrari and Mercedes came to an agreement to back off each other using the whole its for the good of the sport angle.

It wouldn't shock me if Mercedes left or they stay past 2020. But my gut feeling is there off and the people within daimler who's never been supportive of the F1 programme since the beginning will use the rule changing, electrical energy and now the coronavirus as the final nail in the coffin

[Ben1445]

They are supplying McLaren again soon as well.... maybe they revert back to the Silver Arrows paint job and Merc still keeps a high profile without the main team.

Though I thought the team was relying less and less on money from the Daimler group these days? If F1 pays off for marketing then why depart when they have such a hold over the sport?

If we assume for a moment that Mercedes won't now have a full factory F1 team indefinitely like Ferrari have - there's only two possible ways that they leave. Either they leave when they are ahead at the end of the most dominant run in F1 history....or when they are beaten and getting back on top means even more money and they simply aren't willing to spend it. The latter doesn't look good for their brand image, whereas the former does. So I could see the logic in pulling the plug now. 

 

That all said, do I think them to be on the brink of pulling out? No, probably not. 

[Hakki069]

Also brand image.

Daimler and Co are pushing the whole electric engines development going forward. Does have to be said that it does rather contradict the whole thing by competing and winning in a petrol drinking combustion engine sport.

There will be a point in the future where winning in formula one might actually hurt there brand.

Well there winning and dominanting in formula 1 who's gonna want to buy an electric Mercedes? The demand would still be all for the combustion engine which is what they ultimately want to get away from

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Is Hamilton contracted to Mercedes pass 2020? Or where they negotiating?

[MikeV1987]

FossiI fuel cars aren’t going away for a long time. EV tech isn’t that far yet.

Edited by MikeV1987, 19 April 2020 - 16:15.

[Hakki069]

FossiI fuel cars aren’t going away for a long time. EV tech isn’t that far yet.

Yes that is true.

But on the other hand car manufacturers will be spending billions over the next few years on electric development engines and batteries etc.

There will be a point when the board will be saying enough is enough in terms of completing in a combustion engine formula. Majority of there fellow German car makers have already ditched the petrol drinking motor sports for that very reason in order to focus on electrical energy. Mercedes cant really be seen in Germany to be that far behind them.

[Ben1445]

FossiI fuel cars aren’t going away for a long time. EV tech isn’t that far yet.

It's actually way closer than people give it credit for though. Close enough in fact for the manufacturers to be investing billions in it and ending new ICE development - including Daimler. 

 

But even then, yeah, probably going to have ICEs around for a while yet in hybrids and indeed waiting for older cars to end their serviceable life, but I see the ICE in the future being seen as more of a necessary evil where being able to make as little use of them as possible is the mark of good engineering. 

 

What would actually align F1's rules with Daimler's technology strategy is capping ICE power and freezing ICE development and shifting all PU based  competitive advantage into electrification. But that's another discussion entirely. 

Edited by Ben1445, 19 April 2020 - 16:29.

[TheMessiah]

Ineos are winners, no way they would be associated with a B team. Hence why they are on a Mercedes and not a RP right now.

[ARTGP]

I don’t see why Hamilton feels his future is tied to Toto. Where was Toto in 2007-2008?

Toto could go to Ferrari in a bombshell twist, I don’t see what that changes besides the obvious.

Edited by ARTGP, 19 April 2020 - 20:08.

[PayasYouRace]

Ineos are winners, no way they would be associated with a B team. Hence why they are on a Mercedes and not a RP right now.

Did the win the Chemistry Olympics or something?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I don’t see why Hamilton feels his future is tied to Toto. Where was Toto in 2007-2008?

Toto could go to Ferrari in a bombshell twist, I don’t see what that changes besides the obvious.

Who knows? Something behind closed doors? Or he just feels connected to him?

[AustinF1]

Also brand image.

Daimler and Co are pushing the whole electric engines development going forward. Does have to be said that it does rather contradict the whole thing by competing and winning in a petrol drinking combustion engine sport.

There will be a point in the future where winning in formula one might actually hurt there brand.

Well there winning and dominanting in formula 1 who's gonna want to buy an electric Mercedes? The demand would still be all for the combustion engine which is what they ultimately want to get away from

Exactly. By powering AM, McLaren, & RP, they'd have two teams likely at or near the top in terms of chances to win the championships, and another that should be strong in the midfield ... removing the massive investment it takes to run a team of their own. This helps them look good with the board, with their public image, etc, and they can still brag about it every time a Mercedes-powered car wins on Sunday. 

 

I've been saying for years that Merc would likely pull out at or near the end of this run of rules. After several years of domination, the marketing returns have to be diminishing at least somewhat. Add in the uncertainty of new rules coming, COVID-19 worries, etc ...

Edited by AustinF1, 19 April 2020 - 23:00.

[Hakki069]

These comments about Lewis saying his future is tied to toto is odd in many ways.

Its not the same as with schumacher and todt for example. You knew both of those two were never going to split from ferrari unless something pretty extraordinary happened. They were together until one decided to retire.

With Lewis and toto for sure its a marriage of convenience. There relationship was never that great until nico retired. It's pretty certain toto probably won't be at mercedes for much longer. Long term anyway.

Toto already tried to get the liberty job until ferrari veto it. So now toto decided to buy shares in Aston Martin. So toto already has a new challenge in mind. But it's really a question does Mercedes continue in f1 and if so does both sides want to continue together? Been rumours of cracks already forming which adds to all the other stories and rumours.

The whole situation with toto wolff is intriguing. He will certainly be a major player in f1 in years to come whatever he's doing

[AustinF1]

It's actually way closer than people give it credit for though. Close enough in fact for the manufacturers to be investing billions in it and ending new ICE development - including Daimler. 

 

But even then, yeah, probably going to have ICEs around for a while yet in hybrids and indeed waiting for older cars to end their serviceable life, but I see the ICE in the future being seen as more of a necessary evil where being able to make as little use of them as possible is the mark of good engineering. 

 

What would actually align F1's rules with Daimler's technology strategy is capping ICE power and freezing ICE development and shifting all PU based  competitive advantage into electrification. But that's another discussion entirely. 

Yep, I think hybrid-power will be around for a long time. In fact I think it will thrive as a transition propulsion system until we move on to whatever is next.

 

Toyota is rumored to be moving to hybrid Toyota Siennas for the 2021 model year. I've been waiting for that & we'll be replacing our current Sienna with one of those. They're also rumored to be moving to a hybrid twin-turbo V6 for the currently V8-powered Tundra. 30+ mpg and 450+ HP. Game ... changed. That will turn the full-size pickup market on its ear. And Toyota doesn't make a shift like that for a short-term gain. Those will be around for a while, and then we'll see more hybrids popping up in other manufacturers' dealerships as well.

Edited by AustinF1, 19 April 2020 - 23:00.

[Hakki069]

Exactly. By powering AM, McLaren, & RP, they'd have two teams likely at or near the top in terms of chances to win the championships, and another that should be strong in the midfield ... removing the massive investment it takes to run a team of their own. This helps them look good with the board, with their public image, etc, and they can still brag about it every time a Mercedes-powered car wins on Sunday.

I've been saying for years that Merc would likely pull out at or near the end of this run of rules. After several years of domination, the marketing returns returns have to be diminishing at least somewhat.

Yes exactly right. The first peace of the puzzle for me with mercedes probably leaving f1 was verstappen signing his new deal with redbull so early. Its means ether hamilton has signed a new deal which veto max or there leaving after 2020?

For 2021 Max surely would of been merc main target. And max signing a new deal went against everything he had said previously about wanting to see what the 2020 car was like before deciding what to do.

Kinda all joins up if you think about it

Edited by Hakki069, 19 April 2020 - 22:56.

[AustinF1]

Yes exactly right. The final peace of the puzzle for me with mercedes probably leaving f1 was verstappen signing his new deal with redbull so early. Its means ether hamilton has signed a new deal which veto max or there leaving after 2020?

For 2021 Max surely would of been merc main target. And max signing a new deal went against everything he had said previously about wanting to see what the 2020 car was like before deciding what to do.

Kinda all joins up if you think about it

Indeed it does ...

[JHSingo]

More chance of Ineos taking over the Mercedes team than Stroll and Toto.

If that ever happened, I would unashamedly celebrate every time one of their cars broke down, or otherwise failed to finish down. Hateful company.

Edited by JHSingo, 19 April 2020 - 23:32.

[Fatgadget]

^

Yawn. You have never made a secret that you don't  like the Mercedes/Lewis domination era..ZZZZzzzzz

[Marklar]

These comments about Lewis saying his future is tied to toto is odd in many ways.

Its not the same as with schumacher and todt for example. You knew both of those two were never going to split from ferrari unless something pretty extraordinary happened. They were together until one decided to retire.

With Lewis and toto for sure its a marriage of convenience. There relationship was never that great until nico retired. It's pretty certain toto probably won't be at mercedes for much longer. Long term anyway.

Toto already tried to get the liberty job until ferrari veto it. So now toto decided to buy shares in Aston Martin. So toto already has a new challenge in mind. But it's really a question does Mercedes continue in f1 and if so does both sides want to continue together? Been rumours of cracks already forming which adds to all the other stories and rumours.

The whole situation with toto wolff is intriguing. He will certainly be a major player in f1 in years to come whatever he's doing

These comments were made when they were rumours of Wolff going to Ferrari, which would have certainly made Hamilton's move to Ferrari more easier from a political POV. I'm quite certain that Hamilton's future is not actually tied to Wolff.

[EvilPhil II]

Latest
Aston plans to cease use of AMG engines in production cars.

[Ben1445]

^ Interesting. 

Edited by Ben1445, 20 April 2020 - 09:37.

[Hakki069]

Latest
Aston plans to cease use of AMG engines in production cars.

Link to the article you found tho info?

Interesting if true. Makes toto investment a bit more intriguing.

Isn't mercedes stake in Aston linked to these engines? So does that mean mercedes will end there personal links to Aston if they stop the use of the AMG engines?

[Ben1445]

^

Yawn. You have never made a secret that you don't  like the Mercedes/Lewis domination era..ZZZZzzzzz

Think that was more tied to a dislike of INEOS as a company? They have a bad track record for trying to roll back environmental regulations and ignoring/disregarding locals objections to fracking in the UK. 

[johnwilliamdavies]

There would be a lot of sense in Merc staying as a PU supplier but shuffling the Brackley over to Aston Martin (who, of course, they supply road engines to anyway) and making the Racing Point outfit an INEOS backed B-Team. 

 

 

But INEOS are way, way bigger than Aston Martin. Aston Martin have always struggled to make any money, they've been dependent on "investors" sticking money in since the 50s. And Stroll is not in the same wealth league as James Ratcliffe, but he does seem to be able to put consortiums together, who will want to have a bit of return at some point, I guess. 

[EvilPhil II]

Link to the article you found tho info?

Interesting if true. Makes toto investment a bit more intriguing.

Isn't mercedes stake in Aston linked to these engines? So does that mean mercedes will end there personal links to Aston if they stop the use of the AMG engines?

 

 

 

https://www.autocar....ut-across-range

https://www.autocari...s-models-416927

 

I believe Daimler AG still owns a 5% stake in Aston Martin... at the moment though. 

Edited by EvilPhil II, 20 April 2020 - 10:52.

[renzmann]

I don't like any of this. Even more politics, even less team autonomy. I'm amazed this is even legal. Imagine the Nike CEO buying 1% of Adidas' stock "because I have been friends with those guys for years".