28 replies to this topic

[mariner]

During this lockdown I started tidying the garage and discovered that mice were trying to destroy my old mags so I got them all out which, of course , led to reading them including ones from 1962.

 

As I did so I realised that early 1962 was, in retrospect a pivotal moment in F1. I always think of Moss as 1950's driver , and just into 1961 with the Monaco win in an 18. However he raced several times in early '62 against Jim Clark , who  would by the end of  '62 be the guy to beat instead of the absent Moss.

 

They raced against each other at Snetterton and Bruxelles . 

 

At snetterton Moss was very competitive despite having an older car versus Clark's. At Bruxelles Clark did  2 miniutes 3.1 secs to get pole, Mos was just 02 seconds slower in second place on the grid despite the older car.

 

I suppose in way things worked out for the best as seeing Moss stuck with an older car with Clark in the 25 might have been sad, a bit like Fangio's 1958 Rouen GP run to fourth.

 

Having said that if you look at Spa in 1962 Trevor Taylor went  incredibly fast in a spaceframe 24 getting on the front row on his first visit.

 

As I understand it Moss was due to get a 24 post Goodwood and so,arguably he would have close up to the front in it at Spa  it if Taylor was that quick?

 

BTW there were 19 starters at the 1962 Spa GP and 9 were Lotus's - I think that might be the peak of Lotus F1 grid representation and ( maybe ) the highest ever percentage for one make on a GP grid?

Edited by mariner, 20 April 2020 - 11:36.

[Tim Murray]

The other great ‘might have been’ is Stirling in a dark blue Ferrari. Was this all pie in the sky, or was Enzo serious about supplying a car to Rob Walker?

[ensign14]

 

BTW there were 19 starters at the 1962 Spa GP and 9 were Lotus's - I think that might be the peak of Lotus F1 grid representation and ( maybe ) the highest ever percentage for one make on a GP grid?

Not counting tricks like 1926's French GP, in the WC era, it may be Argentina 1956, 8 out of 13 were Maserati.  The others all Ferrari.  62%.  Not checked for other years. 

[Charlieman]

... mice were trying to destroy my old mags so I got them all out ...

 

Both mags and mice, hopefully.

---

Tim Murray raised the Rob Walker-Ferrari question. Everything I recall on the subject suggests that Rob Walker and Stirling Moss expected Enzo Ferrari to deliver on the deal. Stirling was enchanted by his tape recorder around that time so it would be wonderful if any recordings were made.

 

Would Enzo Ferrari have delivered a works team quality car to Walker? Ferrari had been told off by Tony Vandervell for selling second hand goods. Ferrari had established good relationships with some privateers (e.g. Peter Whitehead) and supported entries from his road car importers. I'm not sure he'd be happy if that Polish bloke mucked about with his car, though.

[2F-001]

On the thought of Clark perhaps having a car advantage...

I think it notable that nobody other than Clark managed to win a WC GP in a 25 (and nobody at all in a 24), and from memory Spence's RoC win was the only non-Clark win for a 25 in an F1 race of any sort, wasn't it?

As has been postulated in the past by others, was the best thing about the 25 Jim Clark?

Edited by 2F-001, 20 April 2020 - 11:50.

[Rupertlt1]

What magazines are you reading? Innes Ireland in a Ferrari sharknose?

 

RGDS RLT

[68targa]

The other great ‘might have been’ is Stirling in a dark blue Ferrari. Was this all pie in the sky, or was Enzo serious about supplying a car to Rob Walker?

 

Ferrari did supply a snarknose car for Innes Ireland at the 62 International Trophy (entered by UDT Laystall) after Moss had his Goodwood shunt. I can't believe that the Old Man would have sent a car out of sentiment. I have always felt that Enzo was truly respectful for Moss and his talents and that a deal would have happened. 

Of course if Moss won in a Ferrari GP car then would the win be down to Moss or the car?

 

[ensign14]

I wonder how good the Sharknose really was.  Its success in 1961 was more down to nobody else being ready rather than being a serious bit of kit.  As soon as BRM and Climax had their 1.5 litres up and running, Ferrari's arse was kicked so badly that they had "industrial action" withdrawals.

[mariner]

I am not sure a Ferrari would have helped Moss much in '62 as the works Ferrari's of that year were utterly uncompetitive vs the Lotus and BRM works cars. They had made liltte prorgress since 61 and still ran wire wheels for example. Innes Ieland  was no mean driver and he didn't get very much out of his one off Ferari drive.

[Roger Clark]

I’m sure that Moss would have been competitive in a 24. The performances of Jack Brabham and Innes Ireland show that the car was competitive and Jim Clark was as fast in the Aintree 200 as he was in the British Grand Prix. 
 

The Ferrari deal may or may not have happened but I can’t see it being successful. The Sharknose was rapidly being left behind by the British V8s and I can see Moss in a similar situation to 1959, switching between three or four different cars when he could probably have won in any of them.  What about a V8 Ferguson?

 

What I would really have liked was Moss in a transverse engined V12 Maserati, but I don’t think that was ever a possibility. 

[Charlieman]

I wonder how good the Sharknose really was.  Its success in 1961 was more down to nobody else being ready rather than being a serious bit of kit. 

Ferrari were very confident. They raced the F2 version of the F156 and then they tested the car again and again. But they were first time right with their first rear engined 'pure' design. The F2 car which became the F1 car was right for the time. It was good for two years before Forghieri created the Aero concept which has since confused engineers for decades.

 

Wire spoke wheels? I'm sure that modern wheels are better, but we should assume that Ferrari made a decision which made sense to them at the time.

[68targa]

Coming out of 1961 Ferrari was top dog and I suppose it was a bit of a coup for someone else to get hold of one but Jack Brabham had shown the potential of the Climax V8 in Germany (even though he went off) so if UDT/Walker and Moss did run a snarknose early in 62 and it did not match up then I am sure they would have pushed to get something better. 

 

Of course Rob Walker did acquire a new Lotus 24 by Monaco (Tringnant) and  UDT also ran a 24 so it is interesting to speculate what Moss might have done with it.

[d j fox]

Ive often wondered about the rumoured Walker Moss Ferrari How independent from the Scuderia would:could it have been? Would Alf Francis have been able to extract more from it ? Much has been said about the 156s fairly poor showing in 1962 compared to 1961 but in truth they didn’t really have the best drivers did they? Shame we never got the chance to see Stirling give it a go

[ensign14]

Ferrari-Climax...

[Tim Murray]

Ferrari’s performance in the early part of 1962 wasn’t too shabby. Mairesse won in Brussels and after three championship GPs Phil Hill lay second in the championship, only two points behind Graham Hill. Then came the metal-workers’ strike and the disintegration of Ferrari’s season under the direction of Dragoni, who didn’t get on with Phil Hill. The car itself wasn’t the whole problem.

[Tom Glowacki]

Ferrari did supply a snarknose car for Innes Ireland at the 62 International Trophy (entered by UDT Laystall) after Moss had his Goodwood shunt. I can't believe that the Old Man would have sent a car out of sentiment. I have always felt that Enzo was truly respectful for Moss and his talents and that a deal would have happened. 

Of course if Moss won in a Ferrari GP car then would the win be down to Moss or the car?

 

 

Depends on whether you would be asking an Italian or an Englishman.

[D-Type]

I have seen it said that the main performance difference between the Lotus 24 and the Lotus 25 was Jim Clark.

Edited by D-Type, 20 April 2020 - 22:07.

[Ray Bell]

Interesting that the 24 went so well at Spa...

 

Chapman was quoted as saying at the start of the year that the works cars would have some different bodywork, either implying or stating that they'd be more slippery for fast circuits.

 

As to the subject at hand, virtually all of my race programmes, dating from 1962 to 1974 and some years with 30+ of them, were destroyed by termites. Today I see that the loss of those was a greater one than I did at the time.

[doc knutsen]

During this lockdown I started tidying the garage and discovered that mice were trying to destroy my old mags so I got them all out which, of course , led to reading them including ones from 1962.

 

As I did so I realised that early 1962 was, in retrospect a pivotal moment in F1. I always think of Moss as 1950's driver , and just into 1961 with the Monaco win in an 18. However he raced several times in early '62 against Jim Clark , who  would by the end of  '62 be the guy to beat instead of the absent Moss.

 

They raced against each other at Snetterton and Bruxelles . 

 

At snetterton Moss was very competitive despite having an older car versus Clark's. At Bruxelles Clark did  2 miniutes 3.1 secs to get pole, Mos was just 02 seconds slower in second place on the grid despite the older car.

 

I suppose in way things worked out for the best as seeing Moss stuck with an older car with Clark in the 25 might have been sad, a bit like Fangio's 1958 Rouen GP run to fourth.

Reims not Rouen in 1958

[john aston]

I've been exposed to a lot of Moss recently , but as scribbler , not driver .In the mid Sixties he had a lengthy monthly column in CAR on the sport (with Messrs Manney , Setright,and  Brittan , inter alios) and it was well written and insightful. I assume it was dictated  to Val Pirie , or a CAR staffer , rather than the man bashing a typewriter himself . His opinion was invariably founded upon personal attendance at events - which  I suppose was the only way.

 

In contrast to nowadays when a million opinions are expressed on a Grand Prix  despite the fact that most of those expressing them have possibly never been to a  race of any sort in person 

 

Remember Grands Prix? Something that used to happen every week or so in Olden Times ?

[Sterzo]

Interesting that the 24 went so well at Spa...

 

Chapman was quoted as saying at the start of the year that the works cars would have some different bodywork, either implying or stating that they'd be more slippery for fast circuits.

 

 

Wasn't that Chapman trying to downplay the differences between the 25 and 24, because he'd supplied "this year's car" to Rob Walker and other customers. Hence Walker's famous comment when he peered into the 25 cockpit after Chapman told him it was basically the same car: "It hasn't got a b***** chassis in it."
 

[Michael Ferner]

Remember Grands Prix? Something that used to happen every week or so in Olden Times ?

Oh yes, the "thing" that stopped in twenty-twenty with the big corona ruckus, and was never picked up again because nobody missed it?

[Roger Clark]

With the benefit of hindsight, should the fact that Chapman (and Esso) were prepared to sell 24s have bee a clue that something was coming?  That didn't happen with the 21.

[john aston]

Oh yes, the "thing" that stopped in twenty-twenty with the big corona ruckus, and was never picked up again because nobody missed it?

Err. will I get fined by TNF if I confess to having missed it hugely? 

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
With the benefit of hindsight, should the fact that Chapman (and Esso) were prepared to sell 24s have bee a clue that something was coming?  That didn't happen with the 21.

You could formulate theories on this line...

Cooper weren't selling their latest cars in '62, were they? And MRD had arrived, so the potential was there for the Brabham cars to come on the market. But they weren't there yet.

So getting in while there was no opposition might have been a profitable venture.

[Michael Ferner]

Err. will I get fined by TNF if I confess to having missed it hugely?

Yes!! Three months of reading every post in Racing Comments, and no appeal!!

[Rob Ryder]

Err. will I get fined by TNF if I confess to having missed it hugely?

 

Burn the witch !!!  

[GreenMachine]

Ouch!  Tough crowd here, I thought RC was bad ...

[Ray Bell]

Ah yes...

 

But we have the experience!