63 replies to this topic

[ch103]

Has anyone seen this documentary on Netflix?  If not, it is simply incredible.  What Ribbs had to contend with was sheer mind boggling.  He could have been the Lewis Hamilton of the 80's.  

[ensign14]

I don't think he could have been, he wasn't anywhere near Hamilton's level.  Mid-grid Indycar was probably better than could be expected for a very good Trans Am driver.  Along with the likes of Tom Gloy and Tommy Kendall.

[Tim Murray]

Uppity: The Wllly T. Ribbs Story

[Richard Jenkins]

It was excellent, albeit quite (understandably) biased. The action shown was great and unlike the Fangio documentary recently, they actually had relevant talking heads.

Shortly after I watched this there was all the furore over some Nascar driver saying the N word in a virtual race and it struck me how much NASCAR's racial priorities have changed.

[Lee Nicolle]

While I remember reading about him and watching him on Indy races. How good was the equipment?

From what I gathered it was not the latest and greatest though a decent car from last year. Run on maybe two shoestrings

[Lee Nicolle]

It was excellent, albeit quite (understandably) biased. The action shown was great and unlike the Fangio documentary recently, they actually had relevant talking heads.

Shortly after I watched this there was all the furore over some Nascar driver saying the N word in a virtual race and it struck me how much NASCAR's racial priorities have changed.

Nascar, the god fearing , brawling good old boys who at times try to kill each other. I think the N word while derogatory is the least of their problems!

[Sterzo]

I did watch Willy Ribbs in British FF back in the day. The claims in the trailer that he beat everyone make me think I won't watch this. Bovine droppings are available elsewhere.

[DogEarred]

Yes, I saw him in action on and off the track.

He did have a 'self confident' aire about him.

To put it mildly...

[Michael Ferner]

I think Ribbs had all the opportunities, he was around at the right time when everybody wanted a black driver to be successful, not because everybody wanted to be politically correct all of a sudden, but because there was a huge potential fan base to be head from the black community, In a word, $$$$$! I remember well how he was bandied around for almost every racing series one can think of, but never really seemed to be moving in the right direction. One comment that could be heard and read repeatedly was that he seemed to be his own biggest enemy...

[E1pix]

It was excellent, albeit quite (understandably) biased. The action shown was great and unlike the Fangio documentary recently, they actually had relevant talking heads.
Shortly after I watched this there was all the furore over some Nascar driver saying the N word in a virtual race and it struck me how much NASCAR's racial priorities have changed.

Sadly little has changed in that circle, Richard.

An intelligent Black man cannot yet be accepted by the preponderance of dumb White people that populate NASCAR. Sad, true, and easy to see.

It's surreal in this era of "modern thinking" that the same people claiming to defend rights to life only apply those philosophies to people they deem worthy of basic human rights.

I'd love to see how a White driver would handle himself if surrounded by 400,000 Black fans. One has to be cocky when thrown into such a ring, or potentially be branded as weak.

IndyCar was Willy's only chance -- albeit not without racist impurities evident in some fans and participants there as well -- and he gave it a good fight in a secondary team (and budget) that didn't much help Derek Daly to show his potential, either. I've also long wondered about the effects to Willy's psyche after accidentally killing the corner worker in Vancouver in 1990.

Edit: I hope everyone sees I am by no means calling Richard out here. Rather, I'm simply responding to my lack of shock in a NASCAR driver showing his true, shameful colors in an era where this should have passed by now.

Edited by E1pix, 22 April 2020 - 15:23.

[ensign14]

Remember though Larson has grown up in a different era again.  When he hears the n-word in a ludicrous number of hip-hop tracks.  He probably thinks he is being gangsta by using it.

[E1pix]

I was referring to Ribbs more so than Larson, Sorry.

But regardless of sources we wish to blame Kyle's words on -- as can always be found -- it certainly isn't cool, and it came from him when it never would from (most) others.

I call BS on his apology, too -- but that's just my read on it. Gangsta be damned, he should know better, though your theory would have made for a far-better PR move in the end...


Apologies for the diversion.

[john aston]

Given what WTR had to go through , I'd forgive his default demeanour of barely suppressed rage . Most of us on here have no idea what being a black guy in a white man's sport must be like now, let alone then.Michael says above that 'everybody wanted a  black driver to succeed ' - really ? Because most of the good ol' boys sure didn't . 

 

I saw him race here -he was fast , but it spoke volumes for the times that  his most talked about quality was his skin colour..

 

Lewis Hamilton may divide opinions - I'm a fan - but  his status  has shown we have evolved more than a little in our attitudes since WTR's day.

[2F-001]

I assumed that Michael wasn't necessarily thinking of the other drivers, or even Nascar crews, with regard to that desire, no?

I don't know - my knowledge of the Nascar mindset is obviously an 'outsider's' one.

[john aston]

Oh I'm sure you are right Tony but I think even the general feeling was WTR was little more than a gobby novelty, and defined by his ethnicity 

[2F-001]

Oh indeed, John. I was wondering about marketing types and those with their eyes on media ratings looking for an angle...

 

(Whereas as a very quick - but uppity - F3 driver in the UK might not have even had that leverage pushing for him.)

 

Funny - I would have thought that 'uppity' was a singularly English expression...

Edited by 2F-001, 23 April 2020 - 10:09.

[john aston]

Tony - it is a notorious prefix for the N word , especially in the US . Indeed the use of the word uppity automatically connotes the N word - hence WTR's choice of  title. Because, in the eyes of some bigots , that's all he was .- acting above his station   

[E1pix]

Thanks Guys.

[2F-001]

Well, that shows what a sheltered life I've led (or lead...). I had no idea whatsoever that such a mild, indeed quaint to my mind, expression had been hijacked for such a purpose. So that's another perfectly good word that I can't use anymore.

 

Apologies if I've offended anyone; my use above of the U word, in the context of another driver, was merely a metaphor for rumbunctiousness (and it was easier to type). 

 

E1pix - did you get my email?

[Michael Ferner]

C'mon guys, yes, perhaps not "everybody" in the literal sense, but you know what I mean: this was the seventies and eighties, the beginning of the commercial era, big fat sponsors stepping in, TV Money etc. Of course there would have been those who didn't like a change of direction (there always are), or wouldn't want to mingle, but the moving forces were well aware of the possibilities: more bums in the seats, more TV audiences, more sponsors, "new markets"! It certainly wasn't an accident that women or ethnicities were suddenly welcomed in motor racing!

[john aston]

That must be why it took another 30 years for women to be just about accepted . I have a friend  who races in historic single seaters and until the last ten years his club even dissuaded wives and girlfriends from coming to race weekends as they were 'a distraction'; when I marshalled in the 70s women were confined to paddock duties and I can recall another woman racer whose every success was dismissed as being down to her light weight . 

 

Of course there's  Pat Moss,  Anita Taylor , Desire Wilson . Michele Mouton   or Lella Lombardi to quote as women who were in he public eye   - but all were exceptions in a tiny minority .  . 

 

I spent 2017 attending as many events , of as many disciplines as I could. Three  branches of the sport seemed truly gender blind - VSCC Trials, Drag racing and Autograss.

 

Sexism is still rife in the sport's more rabid  fans  - just look at some of the toxic crap posted about Claire Williams . Plenty of F1 bosses have struggled, but the male ones don't get flak for their haircut - and other stuff I won't mention here 

Edited by john aston, 23 April 2020 - 15:12.

[ensign14]

That's also the argument to having more Asian drivers in F1.  Yet outside Japan and Albon (who is half-British) it's a bit stuck.  Enaam Ahmed is a possibility but he's stuck at F3 level for a third year (if 2020 ever gets going).

[E1pix]

Well, that shows what a sheltered life I've led (or lead...). I had no idea whatsoever that such a mild, indeed quaint to my mind, expression had been hijacked for such a purpose. So that's another perfectly good word that I can't use anymore.
 
Apologies if I've offended anyone; my use above of the U word, in the context of another driver, was merely a metaphor for rumbunctiousness (and it was easier to type). 
 
E1pix - did you get my email?

I did Tony -- and Thanks -- and will reply or even call asap. :-)

I doubt anyone is or would be offended by your using "uppity." I personally despise some in society demanding yesterday's words are suddenly unacceptable today. The questions I ponder are "Why?" and "According to whom?"

My sense in this case is that word is offensive only if pointed in a derogatory way towards a Black person. I personally view this similarly to what I replied to E14 yesterday, that just because a rapper uses the N-word in describing his reality is not a license for us to use it against people of color. I view this identically to women using certain words to each other that are clearly offensive when coming from a guy, but to each other are not.

It's not an easy line to draw, but I've tired quite a bit of late of a growing social ideology that dictates judgment of how people respond as being equal to or greater than the initial offense. Screw that, when we offend someone we have no right to demand how they should feel -- that's entirely on us!

[Michael Ferner]

It's just that some people are easily offended... for the sake of being offended, that is. It's a mad world our ancestors have left us to live in, and it's not going to become easier...

[Michael Ferner]

That must be why it took another 30 years for women to be just about accepted . I have a friend  who races in historic single seaters and until the last ten years his club even dissuaded wives and girlfriends from coming to race weekends as they were 'a distraction'; when I marshalled in the 70s women were confined to paddock duties and I can recall another woman racer whose every success was dismissed as being down to her light weight . 
 
Of course there's  Pat Moss,  Anita Taylor , Desire Wilson . Michele Mouton   or Lella Lombardi to quote as women who were in he public eye   - but all were exceptions in a tiny minority .  .

And they will remain so, because racing is a macho thing. Very few women can adapt to this mindset that is necessary for being a good racing driver. I've been called out for being a sexist before on this matter, but it ain't so: the same as there are objective reasons to believe that on average, women are far better than men driving in road traffic (and that I firmly believe), there are also objective reasons to believe that on average, women will not be as successful as men in racing. There have been, and probably always will be exceptions, but there will never be parity.

[E1pix]

It's just that some people are easily offended... for the sake of being offended, that is. It's a mad world our ancestors have left us to live in, and it's not going to become easier...

There is way too much of that as well, seemingly the engine of PC just for its own sake. But as with so many things, the essence of being PC had legitimate foundations that've moved on to steroids.

But it's also an underlying sign of rampant unhappiness in a world I'm unconvinced we were ever designed to live in.

Tech: I'm looking straight at you.

[Sisyphus]

I watched it and think most visitors to this site would find it interesting.  I didn't like the fact that he slagged off several people who didn't have the opportunity to defend themselves but that's the thing with biographies, I guess. 

 

I think ensign14 had his level about right--he was definitely above average but doubt he was as good as he thought himself.  But that is typical of racers, isn't it?  And I don't criticize him for that--if you don't think you're invincible, you are not going to make it to the top rank.  He had some fortunate opportunities but no doubt he faced massive hurdles which were arguably greater than the opportunities.

 

An aside--as far as NASCAR goes, I wish Wendell Scott would have gotten some more opportunities as he did well with what little he had--would have been interesting to see what he could have done with a decent chassis and engine.

 

But I give Adam Corolla kudos for his recent racing movie projects.  Great to see some light shined on our sports.

[sabrejet]

Watched it and liked it. I have to admit I was only mildly aware of WTR from his Trans-Am and IMSO GTO days and always assumed he'd had a smooth ride to the ranks of professional race drivers. How wrong I was; even accounting for a modicum of hyperbole, he had a hard time. That he did as well as he did speaks volumes. I also found myself liking him a lot.

 

Had he been Foyt, his behaviour would have been applauded. Nuff said.

[LucaP]

Since we are talking about the opportunities available to black drivers and women in 70s-80s, did anyone here watch Cheryl Glass race? (American woman of african descent)
Her story is certainly tragic. I haven't been able to delete it from my mind since reading about it

Edited by Luca Pacchiarini, 23 April 2020 - 21:05.

[DCapps]

An aside--as far as NASCAR goes, I wish Wendell Scott would have gotten some more opportunities as he did well with what little he had--would have been interesting to see what he could have done with a decent chassis and engine.

 

 

As an aside: I witnessed Wendell Scott "Up Close & Personal" several times as both an occasional member of his pit crew at several races during the mid-Sixties and as someone at many of the events during that time, more often in the scoring booth or the press box.*

 

He was tough as rolled homogeneous armor and, in my opinion, a much better driver than he is credited for being. The problem was more than simply" a decent chassis and engine," it was the financial wherewithal to develop the depth in his operation necessary to compete with the other independents and the factory teams of the day.

 

That neither Ford nor MOPAR really made the effort to support the Scott operation at the time is both surprising and then not so surprising. As Ned Jarrett** stated some years later, everyone liked Wendell Scott -- as long as he wasn't winning.

 

Yes, teams with factory support did give parts to Scott at times, but they were more often than not loaned in many cases.

 

Scott was often a useful "token" for NASCAR, something that he was very much aware of and tried to exploit whenever possible, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

 

Prior to entering the Grand National Division events, Scott was very successful in the Sportsman classes, Modified, and Late Model, demonstrating that he could certainly compete at that level.

 

We will never know, of course, how Scott would have fared had he been given a factory ride and all the support that went with it; however, I think that he would have done well, maybe not winning lots and lots of races, but being successful enough to warrant his place in the lineup.

 

To suggest that the NASCAR GN circuit of the day was full of bigots is, perhaps, an understatement. "Big Bill" was a hard-core reactionary and had no absolutely use for the Civil Rights movement or those who supported it. The France family and their minions in the press have tried to suggest otherwise in later years, but France was smart and clever enough to have others deal with Scott rather than it being NASCAR. There were those who did treat Scott with the decency and respect he deserved, of course, but one should keep in mind that may have been predicated in some part thanks to his not being considered as a threat on the track.
 

* My mechanical genius, or rather the lack thereof, did not necessarily make me much of an asset in the pits, my role usually being the fuel cans or help with changing tires (which was avoided at all possible...), but I often did scoring for the "34" car at events. Payment was almost always done in the meals that Mrs. Scott packed for that purpose; her fried chicken, biscuits, and cole slaw remains to this day some the very best I have ever eaten.

 

** I have always had the idea that Jarrett was one of the few who seemed to genuinely like Scott. When we spoke at a NASCAR preseason gathering in the early 90s, Scott was one of the topics we discussed.

[Lee Nicolle]

And they will remain so, because racing is a macho thing. Very few women can adapt to this mindset that is necessary for being a good racing driver. I've been called out for being a sexist before on this matter, but it ain't so: the same as there are objective reasons to believe that on average, women are far better than men driving in road traffic (and that I firmly believe), there are also objective reasons to believe that on average, women will not be as successful as men in racing. There have been, and probably always will be exceptions, but there will never be parity.

I feel there is plenty of competent women out there. Probably harder for them to get to big time motorsport. Though in saying that how many are good enough to be champions? Though many are good enough to genuinely make up the numbers.

Though that describes a good many men as well. Of all colors and creeds.

Right car and team at the right time for anyone who is good will shine.

[john aston]

I did an interview with Wiliams test driver ,F3 , GT and Formula Woman star Jamie Chadwick last year . I first saw her in Ginettas, when she was just a kid , and have since seen her in F3 etc. Totally professional , and the real deal .   

[kayemod]

I did an interview with Wiliams test driver ,F3 , GT and Formula Woman star Jamie Chadwick last year . I first saw her in Ginettas, when she was just a kid , and have since seen her in F3 etc. Totally professional , and the real deal .   

Having some kind of problem with your space bar John?

 

I agree about Jamie Chadwick though, a very privileged upbringing, and good luck to her for that, but as you say, the real deal.

[john aston]

Space    what? 

[jcbc3]

As long as there's space at the bar, I'm good.

[mariner]

I am lucky enough to have great book written in 1983 by Sylvia Wilkinson called " dirt tracks to glory"( ISBN 0-912697-0) It has whole chapter on Wendell Scott based on interviews with him.The chapter is headed " rags to rags" very appropriate to his story.

 

In the opening quote he tells how they wouldn't let him practice at track until an ambulance from a Black funeral home got to the track!

 

Having said all of that , and much more, he did get his chance and even had film made of his life. "greased lightning" I had heard of it but didn't realise that Pam Grier , Tarantino's favourite actress played his wife!

[DCapps]

I am lucky enough to have great book written in 1983 by Sylvia Wilkinson called " dirt tracks to glory"( ISBN 0-912697-0) It has whole chapter on Wendell Scott based on interviews with him.The chapter is headed " rags to rags" very appropriate to his story.

 

In the opening quote he tells how they wouldn't let him practice at track until an ambulance from a Black funeral home got to the track!

 

Having said all of that , and much more, he did get his chance and even had film made of his life. "greased lightning" I had heard of it but didn't realise that Pam Grier , Tarantino's favourite actress played his wife!

As much as I like Sylvia Wilkinson, there is enough bovine exhaust in that book -- yes, I am thinking of Tim Flock and several others -- to fertilize entire states.

[ensign14]

Don, did Wendell take the no. 34 as a tribute to Richard Petty?  The number looks to be painted in a similar style to that on Petty's car.

[E1pix]

Absolutely-fabulous documentary on Wendell Scott:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=rnPvPqPYyHA

This should be required viewing for every person lacking color, or at least the ones lacking simple humanity.

Edit: Ensign14, I've wondered the same thing, but will say as the only (former) sign painter here the style is actually quite different.

But it is close enough to wonder if that was the intent -- as with the car color...

Edited by E1pix, 24 April 2020 - 15:23.

[RA Historian]

Yes, male chauvinism exists in our sport. One example that I experienced first hand goes back some ten years to an Indy Car race at Milwaukee. Danica Patrick was in a close fight on the track with Ryan Briscoe.  It got quite intense, with some blocking and chopping involved. Immediately after the race, Patrick marched down to Briscoe and got right in his face about it. A fellow I knew who put out an e mail newsletter really got on Patrick's case about it, saying among other things that she was a spoiled brat who deserved to have her taken over the knee and given a good paddling. I contacted him and said that if that had been AJ Foyt in Briscoe's face that he would have been beside himself heaping praise on Foyt, That shut him up as he (hopefully) realized that he was guilty of a double standard. 

[mariner]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that A J Foyt, who you would expect to be very male etc etc was actually supportive of Janet Guthrie's efforts at Indy.

[Jim Thurman]

Catching up on a couple of things touched upon in this thread,

 

Don, while I've never met or spoken with Ned Jarrett, he has always come across as a genuinely decent and fair person. He has consistently spoken out for, and in favor of, underdogs and for drivers who he feels were unfairly tarnished. In his book, Western NASCAR star Jack McCoy wrote of being impressed that Wendell Scott contacted him about a particular tire compound for Riverside.

 

I did see Cheryl Glass compete once in a northern California regional sprint car race. While she was a mid to back of the field runner on that night, she did make the main event and didn't embarrass herself (this seems weak praise, but truly, it isn't). She looked like she belonged out there more than a couple of the fellows did.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 24 April 2020 - 22:12.

[E1pix]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that A J Foyt, who you would expect to be very male etc etc was actually supportive of Janet Guthrie's efforts at Indy.

AJ's always had a lot more heart than he'd ever admit.

But ain't nobody taking him over any knees. :-)

[DCapps]

Don, did Wendell take the no. 34 as a tribute to Richard Petty?  The number looks to be painted in a similar style to that on Petty's car.

I seriously doubt it. Keep in mind that when Scott moved into the Grand National ranks Richard Petty was both still just Lee's son and just beginning to move up the ladder. I honestly have no idea as to why Scott chose No. 34. In 1961, he started in No. 87, for instance, a number that Buck Baker used for his cars (and from whom Scott bought the car, by the way), before using using No. 34 after it was registered in his name.Later in 1961, Buddy Baker also used No. 87 while driving for his father.

 

Jim, your assessment of Ned Jarrett mirrors what many have always thought of him. Both during the time Jarrett was still competing and later, he was always exactly what he appears to be, You cannot fake it. He was the one who initially suggested that I might want to help Scott in the pits or in the scoring booth since not many of the others were so inclined. Keep in mind that when Jarrett was running for Bondy Long, the shop was literally a short drive away for me, from Columbia to Camden taking maybe just over a half hour or so on US 1.

 

Scott was very, very sharp. He seemed to have a very good sense as to how to get the best out of what he had. He was often faced with being the tortoise among the hares on the big tracks, but on the short tracks he was very, very smart. What is too often over-looked is just how tough a 200 lap GN event was on the cars. And, none of those short tracks were really the same, each one having its own set of challenges. Thanks to its composition, the Columbia track was often hard as concrete, requiring a harder tire. Firestone actually developed a tire that could be used at Columbia and several other tracks with a similar surface and even on paved tracks. Other tracks, Greenville-Pickens comes to mind, could become a skating rink if anyone overheated or dropped oil on it. Yet most others had lanes that could be hard as a brick, but move a few feet up or down and it was -- I always loved this term -- mushy. And, of course, some grew ruts -- especially the mushy ones, with some of the ruts literally moving over the space of so many laps. That was how Scott won Jacksonville, grasping very quickly how the track would behave, getting rutty, and setting up his car correctly and having luck on his side for once. Also, wrecks could mess up the track surface Big Time. At a Sportsman race (I wish I could remember, I think it was Hartsville), a wreck literally dug a hole in the track that almost looked like a trench, stopping the race.

 

Another factor in all this was the GN stars often had to keep in mind that some of the local heroes who got GN rides for the GN visits could give the Big Stars a handful in a 200-lapper. And, did on more than a few occasions.

[JacnGille]

AJ's always had a lot more heart than he'd ever admit.

But ain't nobody taking him over any knees. :-)

Just don't try to kiss AJ in Winners Circle.  

[E1pix]

Been there, done that.   

[10kDA]

 I had heard of it but didn't realise that Pam Grier , Tarantino's favourite actress played his wife!

Hmmm... Pam Grier may be my favorite actress too.

[10kDA]

IndyCar was Willy's only chance -- albeit not without racist impurities evident in some fans and participants there as well -- and he gave it a good fight in a secondary team (and budget) that didn't much help Derek Daly to show his potential, either. I've also long wondered about the effects to Willy's psyche after accidentally killing the corner worker in Vancouver in 1990.

 

As you and Lee say, Willy was probably better than his equipment when in Indy cars. I wonder if he began to lose heart when he was in Trans Am and IMSA - time better spent in single seaters if he was going to move to the top. Trans Am and GTO each had a way of keeping people stuck there. And after the incident at Vancouver, which ultimately changed the way Indy car road course races were conducted from that time to this day, I'm almost certain he lost heart. That's a heavy weight.

 

Almost all of Willy's "uppity" bravado was related to fans through the press. This is a familiar place for many athletes, when everything they say or do is presented with varying degrees of spin. Maybe he got tired of answering the same sort of questions, which were along the lines of "Why are you here, and what makes you think you can do this? In your own words..." without those questions actually being posed in those words. One-on-one, I doubt a fan would see the same WRT as an interviewer.

[10kDA]

Don - thanks for the background and perspective on Wendell Scott.

Scott was very, very sharp. He seemed to have a very good sense as to how to get the best out of what he had.

[10kDA]

Yes, male chauvinism exists in our sport. One example that I experienced first hand goes back some ten years to an Indy Car race at Milwaukee. Danica Patrick was in a close fight on the track with Ryan Briscoe.  It got quite intense, with some blocking and chopping involved. Immediately after the race, Patrick marched down to Briscoe and got right in his face about it. A fellow I knew who put out an e mail newsletter really got on Patrick's case about it, saying among other things that she was a spoiled brat who deserved to have her taken over the knee and given a good paddling. I contacted him and said that if that had been AJ Foyt in Briscoe's face that he would have been beside himself heaping praise on Foyt, That shut him up as he (hopefully) realized that he was guilty of a double standard. 

I remember that race, and that newsletter. Briscoe drove like a punk in that race, probably because he thought he could get away with it. Danica let him know he couldn't. As I recall, those two had a semi-feud for a while after that as well.