238 replies to this topic

[thequadge]

I'm not sure how many of you have listened to the latest Beyond the Grid Podcast, with Julian Jakobi, the former Manager of Ayrton Senna. He has claimed that Senna had contracts to drive at Williams in 1992 and made a late decision at Spa 91 to stay with McLaren due to his loyalty to Honda and it's president. There is an article on the Autosport Website here.

 

My take is that firstly this almost certainly cost Ayrton both the 1992 and 1993 Championships as he would have destroyed the opposition in the dominant FW14B and 15C. (assuming as the Jakobi mentions that Mansell would not have been at Williams anymore). Also there is reason to believe that the tragic events that took place 26 years ago today may have not happened as Senna would have either left Williams after his 5th title to drive for Ferrari as this is where he intended to end his career or his familiarity with the Williams set up could have prevented either the crash or helped iron out the instability that made the FW16 so difficult to drive in the first part of 94.

 

Other consequences would likely have included Nigel Mansell not winning either the F1 World Title or the CART series title, he theoretically could have taken Senna's McLaren seat but I think it is more likely Hakkinen or Schumacher would have ended up there. Prost wouldn't have won his 4th title at Williams either and could well have returned to drive for McLaren in 92 or 93. It also likely that Damon Hill would have never got the Williams drive in 93 and not won the 1996 World title. The list of consequences for F1 even to this day are enormous (Senna affecting Schumacher/Hakkinen who then affected Alonso/Raikkonen and so on).

 

I wonder what people's thoughts are about this? 

[FirstnameLastname]

Did the same not happen at the start of 93? Häkkinen thought he was signed as McLaren race driver for 93 and Senna was going to Williams.... but then he changed his mind and stayed at McLaren in the end.

[thequadge]

Did the same not happen at the start of 93? Häkkinen thought he was signed as McLaren race driver for 93 and Senna was going to Williams.... but then he changed his mind and stayed at McLaren in the end.

 

No Senna never fully decided whether he was going to drive for McLaren in 93, largely due to Ron Dennis not having the Works Honda deal and having to pay for Customer Ford V8s. He drove on a race by race basis until about half way through the season.

[PlatenGlass]

Did the same not happen at the start of 93? Häkkinen thought he was signed as McLaren race driver for 93 and Senna was going to Williams.... but then he changed his mind and stayed at McLaren in the end.

I thought Senna was going to take a sabbatical at that point.

[thequadge]

I thought Senna was going to take a sabbatical at that point.

Yeh that's what he was toying with but how much was real and how much was motivated by Ron not coughing up the $$$, we'll never know.

[PlayboyRacer]

Firstly - it was a brilliant podcast. One of the best and the insider angle and stories Jakobi had to tell, on literally the biggest names in the 80s and 90s, was really enjoyable.

Now for '92 my question is, didn't Mansell have a contract for that season? Jakobi says he'd have made way for Senna but surely Williams would have wanted the strongest pairing they could have? That's how they operated generally. What was Patreses contract situation at that point?

In regards to Senna and taking '93 off, going by Jakobi's words it seems literally the only thing getting him to races was the $1 million per race deal. And even then he was only getting ready to race once the cash hit his bank account! I think seeing Prost take '92 off and come back strong gave Senna the idea that it wasn't the worst situation to be in.

[George Costanza]

If this happened, the qualifying laps that Ayrton would have done would have been quite unbelievable. And no doubt he would have won the championship and in 1993 also. I am pretty sure Michael Schumacher wouldn't have been a seven time world champion.

Edited by George Costanza, 02 May 2020 - 01:59.

[George Costanza]

If this happened it would have been Senna and Jean Alesi in same car. Alesi was gonna go there too.

[alainsfoot]

it's a fascinating 'what if?' scenario.

speaking of them, the official f1 site has a very entertaining series of 'what if?' articles at the moment.

i find it hard to imagine mansell would have been paired with him, senna would have destroyed him just like had happened recently at ferrari at the hands of prost.  mansell's fragile but oversized ego couldnt have coped with that.

[F1matt]

Credit where it’s due to Sir Frank, having Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Jean Alesi, Ricardo Patrese all tied up for 1992 was a blinder, and having Alain Prost tied up for the following season to top it all off. 
 

Me thinks someone is exaggerating the truth, and on a certain anniversary. 

[PayasYouRace]

If this happened it would have been Senna and Jean Alesi in same car. Alesi was gonna go there too.

Alesi was going there for 1991. By the time this Senna contract situation was happening he was already at Ferrari.

[NixxxoN]

1991 season was a close fight between both teams.
Could he really foresee the 1992 williams domination? Could anyone?

Its completely normal that he stayed at McLaren after winning 2 straight titles.

[PayasYouRace]

1991 season was a close fight between both teams.
Could he really foresee the 1992 williams domination? Could anyone?

Its completely normal that he stayed at McLaren after winning 2 straight titles.

Well by the sounds of it it was the Honda factor that was bringing in the doubts. If Honda hadn’t convinced him he might have made the move. It implies he had doubts about their continued participation, and that was ultimately proved correct. Honda did leave and it left McLaren struggling and winless for a few years.

 

and Williams were clearly on the up throughout 1991, and probably had the best car in the second half of the season.

[NixxxoN]

Well by the sounds of it it was the Honda factor that was bringing in the doubts. If Honda hadn’t convinced him he might have made the move. It implies he had doubts about their continued participation, and that was ultimately proved correct. Honda did leave and it left McLaren struggling and winless for a few years.

 

and Williams were clearly on the up throughout 1991, and probably had the best car in the second half of the season.

Sure, but there was no evidence that Williams would destroy the competition in such way the following year, was it?

This reminds me of Alonso turning down Red Bull offer for 2009, nobody could foresee Red Bull huge sucess.

[PayasYouRace]

Sure, but there was no evidence that Williams would destroy the competition in such way the following year, was it?

This reminds me of Alonso turning down Red Bull offer for 2009, nobody could foresee Red Bull huge sucess.

 

Did Ayrton need a car that would destroy the competition, or a car that was clearly one of the best on the grid with an engine from a committed engine supplier in the back? Even if they stayed where they were in the summer of 1991, Williams would have been a very good place to be and with no major changes expected for 1992, a very sound option for winning the championship.

 

Alonso turning down Red Bull isn't really the same as Red Bull were not one of the cars to beat and his closest championship challenger in 2008, nor had they won a series of championships in the previous decade. If Ayrton was considering joining Tyrrell or Minardi for 1991, and one of them had suddenly made a jump to the front for 1992, it would be the equivalent situation.

[Viryfan]

Sure, but there was no evidence that Williams would destroy the competition in such way the following year, was it?

This reminds me of Alonso turning down Red Bull offer for 2009, nobody could foresee Red Bull huge sucess.

 

By Summer 1991 the Williams was the class of field:

 

- Aero by Newey

- Renault combined with Elf fuel was way better than the Shell Honda combination

- Williams had all the might of France behind them: French state money, French military technology regarding telemetry and Renault was helped by French weapon industry at their 90's domination

 

In qualy here was the record of Senna against Williams from Canada onwards, up until Belgium:

 

0.5 behind in Montréal 

0.6 behind in Mexico 

0.3 behind in France 

0.7 behind in Britain 

0.2 behind in Germany

1.2 ahead in Hungary

Edited by Viryfan, 02 May 2020 - 09:39.

[absinthedude]

I haven't heard the podcast but what I am reading gives me nothing I was not aware of back in 1992. The V12 Honda engine was known to be less flexible than the previous Honda V10 and the Renault V10. Senna knew that the McLaren-Honda package was as likely becoming less competitive compared to the Williams-Renault. But certainly Senna had loyalty to Honda, moreso than Renault. His relationship with Honda both at Lotus and McLaren was very warm, very constructive and positive. With Renault I don't think he felt that warmth. 

 

My recollection is that Williams in 1991 were known to be experimenting with active suspension, and that might also have concerned Senna as his experiences with the active  Lotus 99T weren't great. All in all he was juggling with a few factors for 1992 and I don't believe it was ever stated that he signed a firm contract for Williams - but that both parties were negotiating. There were a lot of doubts over the Active Williams for 1992 because of the mixed results that previous active cars had. The 1991 Williams became fully competitive as the season reached quarter distance but there wasn't that sense that it might utterly dominate in 1992.

 

Conversely for 1993 nobody knew that the McLaren was going to be competitive with the Cosworth engine. McLaren had been used to enjoying power and torque advantages over the competition and weren't expected to produce such a great chassis as they did. Hakkinen thought he'd race alongside Andretti with Senna taking a sabbatical...but when Senna tested the car and the deal to drive on a race by race was put to him....he liked it. Throughout that season we never really knew if Senna would drop out at any point. In the end it was Andretti who underperformed while Senna drove that McLaren to five great victories and gave Prost something to think about. 

[Viryfan]

[Viryfan]

I haven't heard the podcast but what I am reading gives me nothing I was not aware of back in 1992. The V12 Honda engine was known to be less flexible than the previous Honda V10 and the Renault V10. Senna knew that the McLaren-Honda package was as likely becoming less competitive compared to the Williams-Renault. But certainly Senna had loyalty to Honda, moreso than Renault. His relationship with Honda both at Lotus and McLaren was very warm, very constructive and positive. With Renault I don't think he felt that warmth. 

 

My recollection is that Williams in 1991 were known to be experimenting with active suspension, and that might also have concerned Senna as his experiences with the active  Lotus 99T weren't great. All in all he was juggling with a few factors for 1992 and I don't believe it was ever stated that he signed a firm contract for Williams - but that both parties were negotiating. There were a lot of doubts over the Active Williams for 1992 because of the mixed results that previous active cars had. The 1991 Williams became fully competitive as the season reached quarter distance but there wasn't that sense that it might utterly dominate in 1992.

 

Conversely for 1993 nobody knew that the McLaren was going to be competitive with the Cosworth engine. McLaren had been used to enjoying power and torque advantages over the competition and weren't expected to produce such a great chassis as they did. Hakkinen thought he'd race alongside Andretti with Senna taking a sabbatical...but when Senna tested the car and the deal to drive on a race by race was put to him....he liked it. Throughout that season we never really knew if Senna would drop out at any point. In the end it was Andretti who underperformed while Senna drove that McLaren to five great victories and gave Prost something to think about. 

 

 

When Senna raced with Renault back in Lotus days, Renault was working on shoestring in terms of money.

 

By 1991 they were going for it all gun blazing regarding budget and technology which they were not back in 1985-86.

[PayasYouRace]

When Senna raced with Renault back in Lotus days, Renault was working on shoestring in terms of money.

 

By 1991 they were going for it all gun blazing regarding budget and technology which they were not back in 1985-86.

 

Lotus was also one of a few Renault customers back in 1985/6, along with Tyrrell and Ligier. Renault had their own works team which itself was wound down at the time. When they came back they had an exclusive works partnership with Williams until Ligier used its political connections to get a second supply.

[NixxxoN]

Did Ayrton need a car that would destroy the competition, or a car that was clearly one of the best on the grid with an engine from a committed engine supplier in the back? Even if they stayed where they were in the summer of 1991, Williams would have been a very good place to be and with no major changes expected for 1992, a very sound option for winning the championship.

 

Alonso turning down Red Bull isn't really the same as Red Bull were not one of the cars to beat and his closest championship challenger in 2008, nor had they won a series of championships in the previous decade. If Ayrton was considering joining Tyrrell or Minardi for 1991, and one of them had suddenly made a jump to the front for 1992, it would be the equivalent situation.

By Summer 1991 the Williams was the class of field:

 

- Aero by Newey

- Renault combined with Elf fuel was way better than the Shell Honda combination

- Williams had all the might of France behind them: French state money, French military technology regarding telemetry and Renault was helped by French weapon industry at their 90's domination

 

In qualy here was the record of Senna against Williams from Canada onwards, up until Belgium:

 

0.5 behind in Montréal 

0.6 behind in Mexico 

0.3 behind in France 

0.7 behind in Britain 

0.2 behind in Germany

1.2 ahead in Hungary

 

Yes, Williams did really well in the 2nd part of 1991.

Still, no one could see future and see that they would dominate so much.
Also McLaren could've made a big leap forwards to catch them and stop them, but they didnt.

Edited by NixxxoN, 02 May 2020 - 20:03.

[Albaforever]

it's a fascinating 'what if?' scenario.

speaking of them, the official f1 site has a very entertaining series of 'what if?' articles at the moment.

i find it hard to imagine mansell would have been paired with him, senna would have destroyed him just like had happened recently at ferrari at the hands of prost.  mansell's fragile but oversized ego couldnt have coped with that.

 

In fairness Mansell I think had a contract at Williams in 1992? If Senna had went to Williams in 92 (unlikely) I don't think Senna would have destroyed Mansell yes there would have been fireworks between the two of them.

 

As for Prost v Mansell at Williams. Mansell would have shown Prost who the Daddy was at Williams, 

 

And as for an oversized ego remind me what happened to Prost's career at Ferrari in 1991?      

Edited by Albaforever, 02 May 2020 - 10:59.

[wj_gibson]

I haven’t read everyone’s thoughts so may be treading over things others have said, but surely Prost would have gone back to McLaren for 1992 to partner Berger rather than Schumacher or Hakkinen ending up there? Then Hakkinen would still have ended up at McLaren for ‘93, just alongside Prost rather than Senna. Hill would still have been promoted to the second Williams seat in ‘93 because Patrese would have gone after ‘92 anyway. He hated the active Williams.
 

With Prost around, I wonder if McLaren might have got a supply of Renault engines for ‘94. That would have made that year’s title interesting and maybe Benetton might not have become the force they were at that time.

 

Maybe with Senna having a much better relationship with the Williams engineers after two successful title campaigns, there would no modified steering column at Imola.
 

I think Senna would have done three years at Williams and gone to Ferrari in ‘95 and Schumacher would have gone to Williams from Benetton to replace him. Maybe Williams would have ended up with the Merc connection as a result. That would have made things very different into the latter part of the decade. You could imagine Schumacher cleaning up in a Williams-Mercedes with Newey’s fingerprints on it. Would Newey have gone to a McLaren struggling with Mecachrome engines?

 

Assuming Prost retired at the end of ‘94 then I could see an Alesi-Hakkinen line up at McLaren-Renault. Berger would have remained at Ferrari since he and Senna worked brilliantly together. That could have made the 94-96 campaigns very different.

 

Also means no promotion for Coulthard if Hill plays the rear gunner role for both Senna and then Schumacher, and no need to bring Villeneuve in. Maybe Ferrari would have courted Jacques as an eventual replacement for a retiring Berger to learn alongside Senna as the latter approached retirement?

 

Further down the line, would Schumacher at Williams-Mercedes have accepted an incoming Montoya as a team-mate?

Edited by wj_gibson, 02 May 2020 - 12:05.

[levi1700]

I haven’t read everyone’s thoughts so may be treading over things others have said, but surely Prost would have gone back to McLaren for 1992 to partner Berger rather than Schumacher or Hakkinen ending up there? Then Hakkinen would still have ended up at McLaren for ‘93, just alongside Prost rather than Senna. Hill would still have been promoted to the second Williams seat in ‘93 because Patrese would have gone after ‘92 anyway. He hated the active Williams.
 

With Prost around, I wonder if McLaren might have got a supply of Renault engines for ‘94. That would have made that year’s title interesting and maybe Benetton might not have become the force they were at that time.

 

Maybe with Senna having a much better relationship with the Williams engineers after two successful title campaigns, there would no modified steering column at Imola.
 

I think Senna would have done three years at Williams and gone to Ferrari in ‘95 and Schumacher would have gone to Williams from Benetton to replace him. Maybe Williams would have ended up with the Merc connection as a result. That would have made things very different into the latter part of the decade. You could imagine Schumacher cleaning up in a Williams-Mercedes with Newey’s fingerprints on it. Would Newey have gone to a McLaren struggling with Mecachrome engines?

 

Assuming Prost retired at the end of ‘94 then I could see an Alesi-Hakkinen line up at McLaren-Renault. Berger would have remained at Ferrari since he and Senna worked brilliantly together. That could have made the 94-96 campaigns very different.

 

Also means no promotion for Coulthard if Hill plays the rear gunner role for both Senna and then Schumacher, and no need to bring Villeneuve in. Maybe Ferrari would have courted Jacques as an eventual replacement for a retiring Berger to learn alongside Senna as the latter approached retirement?

 

Further down the line, would Schumacher at Williams-Mercedes have accepted an incoming Montoya as a team-mate?

 

So eventually we could end up with a McLaren-BMW in 2001,  but with which driving pair??

Edited by levi1700, 02 May 2020 - 13:17.

[FortiFord]

I still don't see why Senna would give up the best car to go to Ferrari in 95 or 96. 

 

We saw how desperate Senna was to get into the Williams in 92 and 93. I don't think he would give that up so easily and move to Ferrari where he would not be able to fight for the WDC. 

[jcbc3]

...

 

As for Prost v Mansell at Williams. Mansell would have shown Prost who the Daddy was

 

...   

 

 

1990 is calling you.

[midgrid]

Patrese would not have left Williams just because he didn't get on so well with the active FW14B. He left because he knew that the team had signed Prost and didn't anticipate that this would cause Mansell to leave, so signed with Benetton in expectation that there would be no seat for him at Williams.

[Albaforever]

1990 is calling you.

 

If I remember rightly Liverpool FC were champions of England that year?

 

I can't remember Prost and Mansell being at Williams together in 1990? 

[Yamamoto]

I thought that Senna had the choice in 1990 rather than 1991. Certainly not going to dispute the podcast though. Regarding 1993, I think Senna left it very late to make a decision when it became clear that Williams was not viable. Then Mclaren announced it was entering Andretti and Hakkinen as its race drivers and panicked Senna's management into action.

 

Source for this is the Tom Rubython biography I have sitting on my bookshelf.

[William Hunt]

In fairness Mansell I think had a contract at Williams in 1992? If Senna had went to Williams in 92 (unlikely) I don't think Senna would have destroyed Mansell yes there would have been fireworks between the two of them.

 

As for Prost v Mansell at Williams. Mansell would have shown Prost who the Daddy was at Williams, 

 

And as for an oversized ego remind me what happened to Prost's career at Ferrari in 1991?      

 

Mansell would have refused Senna as a teammate for 1992, I think he signed his extention late in '91. Mansell has a history of anouncing his retirement several times, in fact he had anounced it at Monza 1990 but Williams convinced him to come back for 1991 and that was after it became clear that Alesi would not respect his signed '91 deal with Williams and move to Ferrari for '91 so Williams pushed Mansell to re-consider his retirement since they just lost Alesi to Ferrari. Mansell had actually retired in 1990 because he couldn't get along with Prost whom he accused of dirty politics behind his back to get better treatment as him at Ferrari.

It was well known that Frank Williams tried to sign Senna several years in a row but Senna stayed loyal to Ron Dennis & Honda in the end. If Williams could have had Senna in '92 they would have dumped Mansell for him straight away because everyone in the paddock knew that Senna was way better as any other driver including Mansell + Nigel had not extended yet at the time they approached Senna and Mansell would not have accepted him as a teammate, even if Mansell had a signed contract he would have retired the moment they took Senna. Mansell's biography that he wrote himself, an excellent read, is very telling: he doesn't like sharing 1st driver status with anyone else and the only teammate he really got along with well was Keke Rosberg (and maybe Patrese because he was the second driver) but then Keke got along well with every driver and Mansell came to Williams as a supporting driver to Keke even though they were treated equally.

For '93 Mansell actually wanted to stay with Williams but then Renault and Elf pushed Williams to lure Prost out of retirement, I'm pretty sure it was Renault who paid Alain's salary and Prost only wanted to sign if Mansell wasn't there anymore, Nigel was furious about that (well documented in his biography) and said Prost played dirty political games to steal his seat. So Nigel retired again at the moment Prost was signed (he couldn't extend at Williams at that point anyway) and he moved to IndyCar with a brief F1 come back in '94-'95 (with the McLaren fiasco).

 

Senna in fact was also upset that Williams had signed Prost for '93 because at that time Senna was ready to move to Wiliams (just like Mansell wanted to stay for '93) but the decisive factor that Williams opted for Prost over Mansell (and even Senna) for '93 must have been that Renault & Elf would cover Prost's salary so Frank Williams would get a lead driver for free!

 

So I'm sure Mansell would have retired anyway had Williams Senna confirmed for '92 but the question is also if Senna would accept Mansell, an Englishman in a British team that he knows inside out, as his team mate.

For 1986 Senna had blocked off Derek Warwick's move to Lotus, possibly fearing that an Englishman in a British team could mean that not all focus would be on him. I doubt Senna feared Warwick, it was more a case of Senna realising that Lotus was not the top team anymore that it was in '78 and that they lacked resources to give both drivers a shot at the title. It's well known that Lotus was already focussing on Senna in '85 and that he was getting much more private testing as de Angelis, that makes Elio's performance even more remarkable: no other driver was ever closer to Senna's pace as de Angelis imho but that situation caused de Angelis to leave to Brabham.

We all know what happened in '86 then. Lotus signed Johnny Dumfries, who was highly regarded in '84 when he took the European F3 title and was signed as Ferrari's junior test driver for '85 (at the time I was surprised that Ferrari went for Johansson after they fired Arnoux because Dumfries was their test driver but Ferrari didn't want to risk it with a young driver just coming from F3 I guess). But Dumfries stock went down in '85 after a dissapointing F.3000 campaign still he was seen as a promissing driver but Lotus treated him so badly that his F1 carreer was over after '86, I'm pretty sure that Dumfries was considerably better as his results show but he wasn't in the same league as de Angelis.
One can also wonder how long de Angelis would still have been in F1 after his accident at Le Castellet in that doomed Brabham car that did'nt suit him. He could have had a carreer as long as Patrese since he was still very young when he died and imho he was one of the best drivers in F1.

At McLaren Senna knew that the team was financially able to run with 2 first drivers and gun for the title with both of them, that's why he accepted Prost as a teammate and refused Warwick I believe. Plus Senna was entering the team (at Lotus he was already there) and he had to move from Lotus to get a shot at the title. Even though Prost knew the team in an out and was their established first driver Senna wasn't afraid for the confrontation, he knew he was the quickest / best driver anyway so maybe he wouldn't have minded Nigel as team mate since Williams also had the financial resources that Lotus lacked and Senna would have come out on top anyway but no way that Nigel would have accepted driving next to Senna.


 

Edited by William Hunt, 02 May 2020 - 17:19.

[PlatenGlass]

1990 is calling you.

The situation was different, especially with Prost having had the year off in 1992. And looking at Prost's 1993 in comparison with Mansell's 1992, I think Mansell might have had the edge overall. Can't say for definite though.

[Dolph]

In regards to Senna and taking '93 off, going by Jakobi's words it seems literally the only thing getting him to races was the $1 million per race deal. And even then he was only getting ready to race once the cash hit his bank account! I think seeing Prost take '92 off and come back strong gave Senna the idea that it wasn't the worst situation to be in.

 

 

I wonder how the details of that worked...

 

At 9 o'clock in the morning Senna is queuing behind the door of the local bank branch. Its 9:00 sharp and the door is opened. With his competitive spirit sharp as ever Senna rushes to the door to be first, only to be given the chrome horn by some crooked nosed Frenchman. Annoyed, Senna has to wait his turn. When its finally time to talk to the teller he sits down in a comfy beige chair and is greeted by a familiar face.

"Good morning Mr. Senna, have you come for your daily bank account balance check?" the bank lady asks with friendly, but cautious voice

"Yes, Mrs. Dinheiro, what does the balance say?"

"But first, lets have a look at your ID"

"My ID, but I come here every day. You know me!" Senna exclaims.

"Change of policy, I'm afraid. Yesterday a balding Englishman came in also claiming to be Ayrton Senna da Silva and said he lost his key, but needed access to the safety deposit box to remove some documents or contracts or smth or the other. Fortunately he spoke in an overly complicated manner and by the time the staff finally understood what he wanted they caught on to the fact that he was not you."

"Very well, here is the ID, now what does the balance say?"

"76,856,546 US dollars and 5 cents" is the answer.

"And, Mrs. Dinheiro, what was the balance yesterday morning?"

"76,856,546 US dollars and 5 cents" is the answer again.

"And the day before?" Senna asks with a calm, but knowing voice.

"76,856,546 US dollars and 5 cents" says the bank lady quietly, knowing that the answer is sure to disappoint Mr. Senna

"Right, that's it! I'm having the weekend off! Screw Ron and his stinginess. There was supposed to be another million in the already yesterday, you know!"

Senna walks off in a huff, his white loafers almost skidding when he takes off.

Edited by Dolph, 02 May 2020 - 18:04.

[Dolph]

Sure, but there was no evidence that Williams would destroy the competition in such way the following year, was it?

This reminds me of Alonso turning down Red Bull offer for 2009, nobody could foresee Red Bull huge sucess.

 

Well, he also turned down Honda for 2009

[thequadge]

it's a fascinating 'what if?' scenario.

speaking of them, the official f1 site has a very entertaining series of 'what if?' articles at the moment.

i find it hard to imagine mansell would have been paired with him, senna would have destroyed him just like had happened recently at ferrari at the hands of prost.  mansell's fragile but oversized ego couldnt have coped with that.

 

Well I don't think Senna would have destroyed him but would have probably beaten him over the course of the season (Nigel having driven the FW14 in 91 and being more familiar with Active Suspension may have had an earlier season advantage).

 

Mansell signed a two year deal when he came back to Williams after his 1990 retirement (which was at Silverstone not Monza, Monza was his 92 retirement). He was messed around by Ferrari with Prost using his political skills to not make it a fair fight (I'm not saying Nigel would have won but it would have been closer and could have gone his way although I'll admit Prost winning overall is still the more likely outcome). Mansell knew everyone including Frank Williams thought Prost and Senna were better and he was always the Bridesmaid so he made sure his contract gave him a 100% support from Williams, Renualt and Elf. I still believe if Senna hadn't offered to drive for free in 93 and Williams hadn't pulled the agreed 93 contract, he would have beaten Prost and defended the title in 93. He was a Williams man and the guys in the team loved him, Prost would have tried his politics to undermine him like he did at Ferrari but Nigel was a Williams man and that would have got him the fair playing field (basically in the Same way Prost was a McLaren man, and Senna was a Honda man during their partnership). The Active Suspension system favoured Nigel best qualities, it took away feel and relied on the drivers confidence and outright guts to floor it. Mansell was probably the bravest driver in that regard at least of the post regularly fatality era and Prost would have taken a while to get up to speed in comparison. Remember Mansell broke his foot in Adelaide 91 and won the 92 Championship on one foot and then after his Phoenix Crash won the Indycar title while have neat anaesthetic pumped into his back so he couldn't feel between his knee and his chest. He had a level of physical bravery and determination you don't see today. 

 

While Senna clearly was the driver of the generation if not alltime (it's him v LH), it would have been a travesty if Mansell had retired without either the F1 or Indycar titles which he richly deserved (he was robbed of titles in 86 and 87 by bad luck (We all know the Blow out in 86, but he stuffed Piquet 6-3 in Wins in 87). 

[William Hunt]

First of all: Senna only 'offered' Williams to drive for free after they anounced Prost, Senna responded to that with 'I would have done it for free' but at that point his arch rival was signed off course so in reality he had never offered to drive for free for Williams and when he eventually did sign for them (for '94) that wasn't for free at all. But Frank Williams actually did get a lead driver for free because Renault (and possibly Elf) were paying Prost's salary and that was surely the decisive factor why Frank listened to Renault's wish to sign Prost.

 

On Nigel Mansell: I don't think it would have been a travesty at all if Mansell had retired without ever winning an F1 world title, I believe that there were better drivers who never won a title (Stirling Moss for starters).

 

Nigel's Lotus team mate Elio de Angelis to name one was clearly the better driver as Nigel (despite Nigel's accusations that Lotus was favouring Elio, it's a thing he would often repeat about his team mates during his carreer but Nigel seems to forget that Patrese didn't get equal treament at all next to him but whining & complaining was Nigel's favourite thing to do). Elio was clearly more clean, more intelligent, put less pressure on the car and quicker over 1 lap. Mansell mainly won his title because he was first driver in a car that was one of the most dominant cars ever made. Let's be honest about this: he was no match for Senna had Ayrton got equal equipment.

 

And Mansell's flat tyre at Adelaïde? I'm sorry but that was his team's stupid mistake. They knew that the tyres were at risk since Prost had changed already (after a puncture) and Keke Rosberg, in his only season for McLaren, who was leading in his final race suffered a blown tyre and had to retire . But Williams chose not to stop or to wait and it blew, shortly afterwards they changed Piquet's tyres but Williams knew it could go wrong knowing what had happened at McLaren.

One could say that Piquet had even worse luck as Mansell that day because Prost's car had litteraly no fuel when he crossed the line, his tank was completely dry. If Prost had been out of fuel just a little bit earlier then Piquet would have crossed the line first and won the title.

Edited by William Hunt, 03 May 2020 - 04:14.

[PlayboyRacer]

I think that's a touch harsh on Nigel. Sure he wasn't the equal of Senna or Prost. But he was the next level - and that alone makes him a great racing driver. It would have been a bit ridiculous if he'd never won the World Championship, just as it was for Stirling Moss.

In '86 he did everything right and more, in a situation where he wasn't even expected to fight Piquet. He did that and more but a combination of factors ripped the title from both of them (including Prosts brilliance in an inferior McLaren, a rare feat).

In '87 he won 6 races to Piquets 3 wasn't it? Every championship in history is thoroughly deserved without question but it does take the shine off a little when your teammate wins twice as many races. At this point Nigel was warranted to feel somewhat jinxed perhaps.

1992 yeah for sure he had the dominant car, one of the most dominant in history. However so did Patrese, himself a very good driver and one who pushed Nigel hard in 1991? Why wasn't it as close in 1992? Perhaps because the driver still made a difference and Nigel was brilliant in FW14B.

You could make a case that he deserved to be a multiple World Champion but it's never that straightforward. However he won the F1 WDC and the CART IndyCar championship - one of only 4 men in history to do so.

To me that's as impressive, if not more, than two F1 World Championships and far more unique. Nigel can be more than satisfied with his career. A star of his era and brilliant racer.

[William Hunt]

I always saw Nigel as a bloody quick driver but also as one who didn't use his brain once he was in the car and often tended to overdrive the car. 

When Piquet joined Williams he clearly underestimated Nigel and I think Piquet thought he would be welcomed as a superstar and that he didnt train as hard (in the gym for example) as Nigel did at the time. But a huge factor for Piquet in those days was that he never was the same driver after his Imola crash, he even lost a part of his sight of depth. So the Piquet at Williams wasn't the same driver as he was at Brabham, he didn't have that raw speed anymore although he was still a quick driver.

 

The strange thing with Mansell is that he never seemed like an exceptional driver or potential world champion before he won his first F1 race, at Brands Hatch in '85. That seems to have changed him. Before F1 he didn't have a particular great CV apart from F. Ford and at Lotus he was dominated by Elio de Angelis. He had a good result now and then but Elio had more class and was a quicker qualifier. So up until that point he never looked more special as say Mark Blundell did or as Jonathan Palmer did at Zakspeed & Tyrrell and at least Palmer had an F2 title on his CV, Mansell didn't have such a CV but he did show considerable speed in the Lotus. 

Even when Nigel joined Williams Rosberg was easily outperforming him (which was no shame, Keke was a champion after all) until that day in Brands Hatch were everything clicked for him, after that race he seemed to have the winning spirit where he was seen as the guy who would never win a race before.

I firmly believe that Nigel learned a lot from Keke Rosberg in that year: they in fact got along very well, much like Prost always said that he never learned more and would never have become as good as he became because of what he learned from Niki Lauda in '84. Prost became calculated because he saw Lauda's calculated approach,

 

I believe Nigel became a winner by learning from & observing Rosberg. Nigel's driving style was actually very very similar to Keke's: both very late brakers, much like Ronnie Peterson was also a late braker (and Romain Grosjean is today. Grosjean is the only driver today using that same technique as Rosberg & Mansell did and it's no coincidence Romain uses more of his brakes as other drivers, that was also the case with Mansell who was much harder on the brakes as any other driver). Keke was also the kind of driver who never was hiding setups from his team mates or stuff like some other drivers tended to do, he would even help his team mate and when Prost performed better at McLaren Keke simply said Alain was a better driver even though the McLaren was obviously tailor made for Prost's driving style and not suited to Keke's style but that's the kind of guy Rosberg was. They don't make 'em like that anymore: hard on track, balls from steel but the fairest guy in the paddock off track. Nigel's own biography suggests that Keke did have a big influence on him. The reason Rosberg quit F1 even though he still had more years in him was because he had difficulties coping with the death of Elio that year. Rosberg and de Angelis were close friends.

 

De Angelis had a much smoother style and was more gentle with the car hence that he was liked more by Lotus mechanics as Nigel, Mansell often destroyed the brakes but Elio didn't. 

 

A strange transition Mansell at the end of '85, and particularly in '86 when he was on form but one should also not forget that Williams had by far the quickest car in '86 & '87. Senna was the best driver in those days in his Lotus and Prost the most consistent and smartest one. It was Williams title to lose. Senna & Prost were outsiders in their cars but yet at the final race in Adelaïde 1986 there were four title candidates, in reality it should have been two (both Williams drivers) considering how quick the Williams car was. It was not at Adeläide alone that they lost the title but because of mistakes during the complete campaign.

Edited by William Hunt, 03 May 2020 - 06:02.

[EvilPhil II]

Sure, but there was no evidence that Williams would destroy the competition in such way the following year, was it?
This reminds me of Alonso turning down Red Bull offer for 2009, nobody could foresee Red Bull huge sucess.

Don't forget they were testing during 1990 and 1991 week after week, perfecting their active suspension. McLaren was doing the same with a test team at Suzuka but were far behind the curve.

Williams began their program in late 1986.

[PayasYouRace]

 

And Mansell's flat tyre at Adelaïde? I'm sorry but that was his team's stupid mistake. They knew that the tyres were at risk since Prost had changed already (after a puncture) and Keke Rosberg, in his only season for McLaren, who was leading in his final race suffered a blown tyre and had to retire . But Williams chose not to stop or to wait and it blew

 

If you watched the race replay shown on youtube the other day, you'd know that Williams didn't have time to react to Rosberg going out and bring Mansell in. None of the teams expected the failures to happen. Prost's earlier puncture was put down to debris or other bad luck and nobody knew what had caused Rosberg's puncture.

[garoidb]

If you watched the race replay shown on youtube the other day, you'd know that Williams didn't have time to react to Rosberg going out and bring Mansell in. None of the teams expected the failures to happen. Prost's earlier puncture was put down to debris or other bad luck and nobody knew what had caused Rosberg's puncture.

 

It is not so much a question of knowing the reason for Rosberg's retirement. Once Keke was out, the penalty for making a precautionary pitstop disappeared. 

It wouldn't have cost him a position he needed for the championship. Under those circumstances, it should have been automatically triggered by the team. There was an opportunity, and pitstops for new tyres were not uncommon at that time. It wouldn't have been a strange decision. 

[Tim Murray]

As PaYR says, Williams were planning to bring Mansell in after they saw what had happened to Rosberg’s tyre, but didn’t have time to do it. Rosberg’s tyre burst on lap 63, Mansell’s one lap later.

[absinthedude]

Nigel wasn't the most intelligent racer in the Prost or Lauda model. He was more Keke Rosberg.....balls out, possibly the actual *fastest* and bravest driver of his era but not always the most effective. Sometimes the Prost way is better....tactics, bide your time, look after the car....it doesn't always look fast (similar to Button) and might even involve some 2nd places where wins are possible but it often maximises points. Mansell had/has legions of fans because he was always exciting to wach, other perhaps than 1995 you were never in any doubt that he was trying as hard is he could.

 

Having said all that, circa 1992/3 Mansell was at the height of his powers and the active FW14B really suited his "balls out" style. It is conceivable that he could have beaten Senna in 1993....Nigel was one of the few drivers who had no problem going wheel to wheel with Ayrton (see Barcelona 1991 for one of many examples). THe two weren't friends but there wasn't the animosity there was between Senna and Prost. The problem is more Nigel needing to feel wanted and appreciated by the team....Williams hiring an established star and 3x WDC with Nigel already on the team would have reminded him of Ferrari and 1990.

 

Now....I don't really think that NIgel was screwed over deliberately by Ferrari in 1990. Prost, however, did certainly play political games and probably won the mechanics and engineers over more than NIgel did with his very different attitude. That could have had a small effect on the quality of equipment Nigel got but I don't for one moment think that he was deliberately given second rate engines. 

 

Nigel and Ayrton at Williams in 1993 was probably never likely but it could have been explosive. Both men at the peak of their powers, both greats, one blindingly fast but not the best tactition and the other one of the finest tacticians we've ever seen but a bit of a flawed diamond at times. 

[Requiem84]

Somehow these topics always seem to go back to the British drivers. The last topic regarding Senna turned out into a Damon Hill topic and now we’re solely discussing Mansell :-).

I thought the Jakobi podcast shed a lot more interesting light on various things tho.

[PayasYouRace]

Somehow these topics always seem to go back to the British drivers. The last topic regarding Senna turned out into a Damon Hill topic and now we’re solely discussing Mansell :-).

I thought the Jakobi podcast shed a lot more interesting light on various things tho.

 

In this case the subject of who would have been his teammate is a relevant one. Nothing to do with Mansell being British but him being the top driver at Williams at the time and either being Ayrton's teammate or being left out in the cold. That Ayrton would have won many races and the title in the FW14B is probably the least interesting and least controversial aspect to the whole thing. The ramifications of the move are where the interesting discussion is to be had.

 

If you want to discuss other things Jakobi brought up, maybe try the podcast thread or start one for a topic other than "Senna and Williams 1992". 

[Requiem84]

The last part of this topic solely is about a race in 1986 and how Williams / Mansell managed to mess that race up.

That is totally unrelated to the topic. So let’s discuss Senna and Williams 1992.

[PayasYouRace]

 So let’s discuss Senna and Williams 1992.

 

Right. So what would you like to add that we haven't mentioned yet?

[Atreiu]

Time for a how good was Mansell thread.

[thequadge]

I know it is a little away from the original topic but still highly connected as Senna @ Williams in 92 changes Mansell's career irrevocably as well.

 

You could make a case that he deserved to be a multiple World Champion but it's never that straightforward. However he won the F1 WDC and the CART IndyCar championship - one of only 4 men in history to do so.

 

For a week in September 93 he was both the Reigning F1 and Indycar Champs, no-one else ever did that! 

[wj_gibson]

Do we think Senna would have made such a song and dance about traction control and active suspension if he’d had the ‘92 and ‘93 Williams at his disposal?

[as65p]

Do we think Senna would have made such a song and dance about traction control and active suspension if he’d had the ‘92 and ‘93 Williams at his disposal?

 

Personally I think yes. Also I always thought that Senna wouldn't have been around for very long if it became (relatively) too easy, as is conceivable if he'd moved to Williams for '92. In the best (or worst, depending on personal POV) scenario he could have had an easy ride to all titles up to 1997, but I think he would have become bored way before that.

 

We saw hunches of it already at the start of 1994, when he was clearly missing Prost as his benchmark and main opponent. With Schumacher he seemed more annoyed rather than inspired or challenged.

Obviously just my personal opinion.