35 replies to this topic

[Rupertlt1]

Here is one to start us off, freshly minted at Revs

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

Is that David Piper with the Lotus?

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 04 May 2020 - 18:42.

[Macca]

Yes, FJ Lotus 20, 1961. I don’t know which Italian street circuit though.

Paul M

[Rupertlt1]

Could it be Circuito del Garda?

 

Aren't those "Automobile Club Brescia" signs

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 04 May 2020 - 20:42.

[Doug Nye]

It is in Salo, Lago di Garda - just confirmed to me by Salo resident and Historic racer Jason Wright.  It's about 200 metres from his home...

 

That's right: I cheated.    

 

DCN

[Rupertlt1]

Doug, Many thanks. So what else can we say about this race?

(I've cheated and crossed out my crossing out.)

 

RGDS RLT

[Parkesi]

There is a book "Circuito del Garda"/Quindici volte via! by Giancarlo Cavallini (Fondazione Negri/ 2001):

Salo, 16th April 1961, XI edizione,  Formula Junior, 2 heats (8 laps each)  and a final (9 laps).

# 27 David Piper / Lotus 20. Piper finished 9th in heat 2 (1h  0` 18`` 1/10). His name does not appear in the final.

Winner was Jo Siffert (Lotus) followed by Colin Davis (Fiat Taraschi).

Tempi passati...

[Doug Nye]

David and 'Seppi' Siffert joined forces to campaign their FJ Lotuses that year.

 

DCN

[Doug Nye]

The Largo Dante Alighieri in Salo - scene of the Revs Digital Library photo.

 

DCN

 

[Rupertlt1]

These results come from the book FORMULA JUNIOR by Luigi Orsini.

It gives two heats with 7 laps, 8 laps in the final — not as above.

[I can find one error highlighted in Heat 2.]

 

 

XI CIRCUITO DEL GARDA Salò 16 aprile 1961.

I Batteria: giri 7 x km 16,400 pari a km 114,800.

Giro piü veloce: Siffert in 7'39"7 alla media di km/h 128,431. 

Ordine di arrivo:

1. Joseph Siffert (Lotus-Ford) in 54'14"3 alla media di km/h 126.494 

2. Colin Davis (Fiat-Taraschi) in 55'02"1;

3. « Geki » (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 55'55"8;

4. Domenico Lo Coco (Fiat-Branca) in 56'03"0;

5. Corrado Manfredini (Fiat-Wainer) in 57'02"8;

6. Jean Marie Bert (Fiat-Branca) in 58'43"0;

7. Jean Pons (Lotus-Ford) in 59'53"1;

8. Enrico Agostini (Cooper-Lancia) in 1.00'05"5; 

9. Leandro Terra (Fiat-OSCA) in 1.00'11"5;

10. André Liekens (Cooper-BMC) in 1.00'11"6; 

11. Grogoseat (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.00'56"7;

12. Aristodemo Sala (Fiat-Moretti Special) in 1.01'40"3;

13. Paolo Martoglio (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.02'43"4;

14. Roger Zehr (Lola-Ford) in 56'56"8 a 1 giro.

 

II Batteria: giri 7 x km 16,400 pari a km 114,800.

Giro piü veloce: Rigamonti in 7'56"8 alla media di km/h 123,825. 

1. Rigamonti Giancarlo (Fiat-OSCA) in 58'17"0 alla media di km/h 118,181. 

2. Lucien Balsiger (Lotus-Ford) in 58'38"1;

3. Jacques Calés (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 58 50"5;

4. Peter Monteverdi  (Lotus-Ford) in 58'53"0;

5. Vincenzo Nember (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 58'56"0;

6. Carmelo Genovese (Fiat-Nova Special) 59'58"2;

7. Pierangelo Negri (Fiat-Negri) in 1.00'21"1 — ???;

8. « Haris » (Fiat-Taraschi) in 1.00'16"0;

9. David Piper (Lotus-Ford) in 1.00'18"1;

10. Jean Lucien Bonnet (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.00'19"1; 

11. Giancarlo Moiso (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.04'.17"0;

12. André Rolland (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.07'41"5;

13. Eraldo Paiola (Fiat-Wainer) in 59'32"2 a 1 giro;

14. Norberto Bagnalasta (Fiat-Wainer) 1.00'02"0 a 1 giro.

 

Finale: giri 8 x km 16,400 pari a km 131,200.

Giro piü veloce: Siffert in 7'27"0 km/h alla media di 132,080. 

Ordine di arrivo:

1. Joseph Siffert (Lotus-Ford) in 1.00'33"1 alla media di km/h 130.001; 

2. Davis Colin (Fiat-Taraschi) in 1.00'39"1;

3. « Geki» (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.03'16"3;

4. Giancarlo Rigamonti (Fiat-OSCA) in 1.03'26"7;

5. Vincenzo Nember (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.03'32"7;

6. Domenico Lo Coco (Fiat-Branca) in 1.04'.02"8; 

7. Lucien Balsiger (Lotus-Ford) in 1.05'.01"7;

8. « Haris » (Fiat-Taraschi) in 1.05'15"4;

9. Jean Lucien Bonnet (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.05'40"2; 

10. Carmelo Genovese (Fiat-Nova Special) in 1.06'19"2:

11. Enrico Agostini (Cooper-Lancia) in 1.06'23"4;

12. André  Liekens (Cooper-BMC) in 1.07'32"9;

13. Jean Marie Bert (Fiat-Branca) in 1.08'00"8;

14. Grogoseat (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.08'15"8; 

15. Corrado Manfredini (Fiat-Wainer) in 1.01'39"5 a 1 giro;

16. Giancarlo Moiso (Fiat-Stanguellini) in 1.01'49"4 a 1 giro:

17. Leandro Terra (Fiat-OSCA) in 1.02'48"7 a 1 giro.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 May 2020 - 00:20.

[Tim Murray]

The results on the F2 Register site contain the same timing anomaly in Heat 2:

http://www.the-fastl...la2/FJ61_E6.htm

[GazChed]

It looks to me like a transposition error and that the time should be 1.00'12''1. Sixty years ago no TSL, RIS etc with computerised results within seconds of the race ending but a group of volunteers one of whom has made a simple error in transcribing the results.

Edited by GazChed, 05 May 2020 - 08:17.

[GazChed]

A great thread Rupert, with both Jo Siffert and Colin Davis showing the form on a natural road circuit that would lead to both winning Targa Florios.

A huge and wonderfully varied field with Seppi's victory in a Lotus Cosworth a sign of things to come as the Italian constructors fell away with their outdated designs.

Edited by GazChed, 05 May 2020 - 10:03.

[Rupertlt1]

A change of scene but with an Italian connection methinks (no Jaguar here):

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

RGDS RLT 

[Henk Vasmel]

A mystery car indeed. It's 1950, the Watkins Glen GP.

There are some doubts about what it is, but I have:

Alfa Romeo SS 8C 1500 (not an Alfa Romeo tipo), Possibly (or constructed from) a 6C2500. Engine 8-1479 C, Tipo 158 (yes the F1 car). License plate MI108811.

Driven and entered by Frank T. Griswold, number (35) (obvious) and retired in the race.

Now, how could he have obtained a current F1 engine? Or is the information (pieced together from several sources) wrong after all?

[Rupertlt1]

A mystery car indeed. It's 1950, the Watkins Glen GP.

There are some doubts about what it is, but I have:

Alfa Romeo SS 8C 1500 (not an Alfa Romeo tipo), Possibly (or constructed from) a 6C2500. Engine 8-1479 C, Tipo 158 (yes the F1 car). License plate MI108811.

Driven and entered by Frank T. Griswold, number (35) (obvious) and retired in the race.

Now, how could he have obtained a current F1 engine? Or is the information (pieced together from several sources) wrong after all?

 

Bingo! You triggered something here. I have this as a hybrid B.M.W.-Alfa Romeo (don't laugh) - I have a colour front shot of red #35 with B.M.W. badge - happy to post with assistance.

Body believed to be by Castagna.  Front license plate: 108811 MI

 

There is a sister car here:

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

 

Update from previous corres with Stephen Griswold:

 

"Yes this car was a BMW (Note the hood badge) frame with Alfa 2500 6 cyl engine and I believe a Castagna body.

The man behind the wheel [in the picture] is Bud Leiber a colleague of my father. He later started RONCO corp.

which distributed Scintilla vertex and aeroquip hoses."

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 May 2020 - 18:01.

[Henk Vasmel]

I am sorry, but the badge in this picture looks nothing like a BMW. I see the cross on the left and quite possibly the snake on the right, and I would be very surprised if that is not an Alfa Romeo badge.

 

The license plates match, because Italians are peculiar that they have the province (MI) in front at the back and at the end on the front plates.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 05 May 2020 - 21:54.

[Rupertlt1]

I am sorry, but the badge in this picture looks nothing like a BMW. I see the cross on the left and quite possibly the snake on the right, and I would be very surprised if that is not an Alfa Romeo badge.

 

Henk, You haven't seen the picture - I have it here but cannot post.

The comments from Stephen Griswold relate to my colour picture.

The car at Revs with Alfa Romeo badge is another car altogether - but looks similar to #35 from the front apart from the Ford headlamp treatment and different badge.

(A sister car means another car altogether.)

#35 has teardrop headlamps similar to a Volkswagen

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 May 2020 - 22:16.

[Ray Bell]

I would say that pic is taken here...

 

 

...about to pass the spot where the Collier memorial stone is.

[Rupertlt1]

Henk,

 

Watkins Glen, 1950

Previous corres with Stephen Griswold:

 

"Yes this car was a BMW (Note the hood badge) frame with Alfa 2500 6 cyl engine and I believe a Castagna body.

The man behind the wheel [in the picture] is Bud Leiber a colleague of my father. He later started RONCO corp.

which distributed Scintilla vertex and aeroquip hoses."

 

The BMW-Alfa is here, with driver at right, note BMW badge:

 

 

 

 

Image clipped from a film. Copyright © RLT for Campbell Bryson.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 May 2020 - 14:46.

[Henk Vasmel]

Nice and clear picture. Yes, there are a few more details that point to it being a BMW. Maybe related to or copied from the 1940 MM cars. (needs some investigation)

The sister car has an Alfa Romeo badge, though. 

Defechereux, in his Watkins Glen book, lists it as an SS 8C 1500, with engine L-8, which does not match with a 6C2500.

Other sources show indeed 6C2500, and recently I found a source quoting the 158 engine (which I find hard to believe).

 

Love to get to the bottom of this, including what the incorrect listings could have been based upon

 

Edit: Defechereux also has it as a class D entry, which matches a 6C2500 and not a 1.5

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 06 May 2020 - 17:28.

[Rupertlt1]

What year was the car built? We know it was registered in Milan, Italy (which would have been in a parlous state at the time).

Presumably they used any components they could find - like an old BMW chassis.

Is there any evidence of this car competing in Italy?

 

RGDS RLT

[Henk Vasmel]

This is why I remembered it in the first place. Recently I looked through some old links I had saved, and investigated a bit more into this car. I thought I had deleted the link, but it was still there:

https://www.veloceto...kins-glen-1950/

Includes a very nice colour picture of the car from three-quarter behind (no front logos)

 

Edit: Wheels do not look like 328's but are remarkably similar to 327 or 326 (and maybe others)

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 06 May 2020 - 17:46.

[Rupertlt1]

So who, what, where, when?

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

RGDS RLT

[Tim Murray]

J M Fangio, Maserati 250F chassis 2528, Monaco GP, 19th May 1957, exit of Tabac corner.

[ozpata]

talking about Garda, I am gonna do a bit of an update to maps at some point, can someone confirm direction

 

1920 to 27 clockwise and the circuit was a bit shorter ( 12 kms)

1948 to 66 anticlockwise  (16 kms)

 

thank you

[Rupertlt1]

talking about Garda, I am gonna do a bit of an update to maps at some point, can someone confirm direction

 

1920 to 27 clockwise and the circuit was a bit shorter ( 12 kms)

1948 to 66 anticlockwise  (16 kms)

 

thank you

 

1962: anti-clockwise. 16.4 km. La Stampa, 1 May 1962

 

RGDS RLT

[ozpata]

so anticlockwise just in 1962 ?

 

I think they used  the track 1948 to 50 or 52 and then it came back again for the 60s, so I want to make sure that I get the direction correct, I wouldn't be surprise if it was used both ways at some points 

 

just to clarify, my understanding is that it was anti clockwise while the long circuit was used, but as I saw a bit of a gap in years used, maybe there were some changes

 

thanks

Edited by ozpata, 10 May 2020 - 13:11.

[Rupertlt1]

What have we here? Prescott, 1960, JCH 888:

https://library.revs....on=p17257coll1

RGDS RLT

[Tim Murray]

JCH888 seems to be mainly associated with Lister Bristol BHL14, campaigned by Austen Nurse, Gil Baird and then Josh Randles according to Racing Sports Cars:

https://www.racingsp...hive/BHL14.html

This is clearly not that car, which looked like this:



Perhaps the registration had been transferred, but to me it doesn’t look like JCH888 on the front of the mystery car.

[Rupertlt1]

Surely better to contact the Archivist at BOC Prescott archive@bugatti.co.uk , Paul Gibbons, rather than playing guessing games here?

He is sure to know who No.40 was.

 

I have not heard back from the ever helpful Paul Gibbons on another enquiry, so I thought I'd leave him be.

Some people like guessing games!

 

(Josh Randles was at Prescott that day with a Cooper Monaco, setting a class record of 57.14 sec, but is normally associated with 536 TEH.  Alfie Osbiston turns up in a Cooper Monaco at S.U.N.B.A.C. Silverstone, 3 September 1960.)

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 18 May 2020 - 16:19.

[DCapps]

J M Fangio, Maserati 250F chassis 2528, Monaco GP, 19th May 1957, exit of Tabac corner.

 

Yes, probably, but....

 

Race no. 32 was also used by Fangio for 250F/2529 (motore 2529/telaio 2529) during practice as well as for 250F/2528 (mot. 2528/tel. 2528) during the race. Race no. 38 was also used during practice for 250F/2528 (mot. 2528/ tel. 2528) driven by both Fangio and Harry Schell, with race no. 38 being 250F/2529 being used in the race by Schell.

 

Note that contrary to the usual (Anglo) practice that the identity of a Maserati was determined by its engine, not the chassis. For example, in this race, Race no. 2, the Scuderia Centro Sud car driven by Masten Gregrory, mot. 2522 was used in tel. 2507, which had also in earlier/other events used mot. 2523; since it was using mot,2522, it was at that moment 250F/2522.. Meanwhile, race no. 35, used mot.2530, the first V-12, in tel. 2522 which initially used mot. 2522, but later used mot. 2523, becoming 250F/2523 when using mot. 2523..

 

Simple....

[proviz]

What have we here? Prescott, 1960, JCH 888:

https://library.revs....on=p17257coll1

RGDS RLT

 

Well, the car is a Cooper Monaco, surely no question about that?

[Tim Murray]

Race no. 32 was also used by Fangio for 250F/2529 (motore 2529/telaio 2529) during practice as well as for 250F/2528 (mot. 2528/tel. 2528) during the race. Race no. 38 was also used during practice for 250F/2528 (mot. 2528/ tel. 2528) driven by both Fangio and Harry Schell, with race no. 38 being 250F/2529 being used in the race by Schell.

I concluded, perhaps incorrectly, that the size of the crowd indicated that the photo had been taken during the race itself.

[DCapps]

I concluded, perhaps incorrectly, that the size of the crowd indicated that the photo had been taken during the race itself.

Tim, I certainly agree with your identification, you nailed it.

 

It is just that there are times when "simple" and "250F" tend to be mutually exclusive terms, if not alien concepts.

 

Barrie and David always were somewhat amused at my usual state of confusion and despair when I was initially trying to make sense of all this....

[Rupertlt1]

I have not heard back from the ever helpful Paul Gibbons on another enquiry, so I thought I'd leave him be.

Some people like guessing games!

 

(Josh Randles was at Prescott that day with a Cooper Monaco, setting a class record of 57.14 sec, but is normally associated with 536 TEH.  Alfie Osbiston turns up in a Cooper Monaco at S.U.N.B.A.C. Silverstone, 3 September 1960.)

 

RGDS RLT

 

Thanks to Richard Page we now know that #40 Cooper Monaco, registration JCH 888, was driven by Josh Randles, Prescott, 11 September 1960.

 

RGDS RLT

[Rupertlt1]

Back in Italy, pure nostalgia:

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

RGDS RLT