45 replies to this topic

[f12018]

in your opinion what seasons did the fastest not win either championship imo 2005,2007,2009,2012,2018 

[Collombin]

Renault 1982, Brabham 1984, Lotus 1967. There will be others.

[Vesuvius]

2005,2006,2007,2012.

[PlatenGlass]

Brabham 1984

Was it the fastest race car though? You could include Williams in 2002 as a contender in the same vein!

 

Williams in 1995 is another one to add.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 12 May 2020 - 21:42.

[ARTGP]

Fastest race car? Fastest qualifying car?  Fastest legal car?  I'm going to need more information 

[Collombin]

Was it the fastest race car though?

That was my impression eg Piquet's almost immediate recovery of his bodged Kyalami start, Teo Fabi running highly on a few occasions, the number of times Piquet led before the inevitable retirement. At the time I rated Piquet the best driver too, but maybe I've let hindsight amend that slightly and give more credit to the car!

Edit - oh I guess you mean race as opposed to just qualifying, with the 17,000,000,000,000 bhp engines. Fair point, but the OP didn't make a distinction so nor did I.

Edited by Collombin, 12 May 2020 - 21:57.

[f12018]

Fastest race car? Fastest qualifying car?  Fastest legal car?  I'm going to need more information 

etiher fastest race car or qualifying car or legal car 

Edited by f12018, 12 May 2020 - 21:58.

[ensign14]

1964.  Lotus had the fastest but most fragile car.  BRM had the best overall package.  They didn't have a jam car to take out the opposition though.

 

1967 and 1977.  Lotus again.  Reliability again.

[messy]

Williams in 1995, although Benetton were very close in race trim.
McLaren in 2005, I’m still not quite sure how they managed to **** that one up but they did a great job of it early in the year.
McLaren in 2012, should really have been Hamilton’s year on pure pace but they weren’t even in the fight to the end.

They’re the three examples from my time watching, I think.

2007 McLaren were clearly quicker on some tracks, but Ferrari were on others so I’d say 50:50. And in hindsight you’d argue McLaren had the better drivers too, surely?
2009 was a season of two halves, Brawn maximised their score better in ‘their half’ then RB did in theirs, so fair enough.
2017/18 Hamilton was much more convincing than Vettel but you’d be hard pressed to argue the a Mercedes wasn’t still on balance the car to have.

[William Hunt]

Renault 1982, Brabham 1984, Lotus 1967. There will be others.

 

Ferrari was imho the fastest car of 1982 together with the Renault. What is for sure is that Rosberg's Williams was pretty far from beiing in the fastest car, 1982 was an exceptional and unique year because Keke won that title in a car that on paper was nowhere near title material, a small miracle. Watson could have won that title in his McLaren too that year, Patrese also could have won it if his Brabham was more reliable, after the accidents of Villeneuve & Pironi the title fight was right open, we can only dream of such unpredictability today.

 

I also disagree that Brabham had the fastest car in 1984.

The McLaren was the best car overall, not in qualifying set up: they often didn't qualify up front with Piquet's Brabham or de Angelis' Lotus often beating them but in race trim the McLaren was the best car, McLaren had the best car when it came to tyre wear so they were quickest when tyre wear started playing a role in the race. So yes the Brabham (with Piquet in top form) and Lotus (at least in de Angelis hands who dominated Mansell) may have been quicker cars in qualifying but on race day McLaren had the most reliable but also the best car overall and I believe that Piquet & de Angelis were simply quicker drivers as a driver as Prost & Lauda in '84. In 1984 I feel that Piquet was simply the quickest driver in the field but his car let him down a lot, if Piquet had been in a McLaren that year I'm pretty sure he would have taken the title. 

Edited by William Hunt, 12 May 2020 - 22:16.

[ANF]

1949.

[Atreiu]

I assume this means perfect reliability or better drivers would have changed the result of the WDC and/or WCC to favor the faster car.
1985
1986
1991
1994
1995
1999
2005
2008
2017 and 2018 have me in serious doubt.

Edited by Atreiu, 12 May 2020 - 22:13.

[Spillage]

I guess we're looking for very fast but very unreliable cars. Important to remember that the fastest car is not necessarily the best car.

 

A few examples of this - seasons in which was was probably the fastest car was unreliable and won neither championship:

1974 - Ferrari

1977 - Lotus

1982 - Renault

2005 - Mclaren

2012 - Mclaren

 

And then there are the years where the fastest car didn't have drivers capable of delivering - 1995 is the only example I could name off the top of my head.

 

2007 is another anomaly - I think it probably was the fastest car but was hampered by two drivers taking points off each other in the WDC, and being disqualified from the WCC, which it would otherwise have won easily. 

[TN81]

In 2007, the Ferrari was miles better than McLaren, but McLaren had two generational talents, while Ferrari had Kimi and Massa. In most tracks (all aero tracks) Ferrari was in a league of its own, McLaren only dominated in special circuits, like Monaco, Canada, US, Hungary and Italy. McLaren drivers simply outclassed the Ferrari pair in at least two races, Malaysia and Nurburgring, despite having slower equipment. As bad as the spygate was, Hamilton and Alonso deserved that championship much more, than Kimi. Especially Alonso, who drove in a hostile environment for half of the year.

 

On the other hand, I don't understand why 2017 is even mentioned. Vettel was clearly better than Hamilton until the summer break, Lewis had terrible weekends, and sometimes (like in Bahrain or in Australia) I felt the slower car won with a better driver+team strategy combination. That Baku error indeed costed him 13 points, but Lewis Brazil error costed him more, not to mention those off-weekends Seb didn't have. Singapore was a simple racing incident, Vettel did nothing what other drivers didn't do in the past, he was entitled to his line as the leader. But even if that crash didn't happen, the wet conditions could have worked against Ferrari, I doublt Seb could have got more than 15 points there.

 

Overall, Seb didn't do any worse than Lewis in 2017, the Ferrari on the other hand was a worse, less reliable car. 2018 was a different case, but even without Seb's annoying errors I assume Lewis had clinched the WDC in Abu Dhabi.

[noriaki]

These always tend to concentrate on post mid 80's, so I will go pre mid 80's

1951 - the Ferrari was probably faster than the Alfa Romeo by the end of the year
1957 - ditto Vanwall compared to the Maserati
1962-95 - It's probably difficult to conclusively assess the Lotuses as Clark's talent combined to the #2 treatment his team-mates used to get from Chapman sorta masks the "true" speed of the cars. When Clark was dominating while his team mate was bringing up the rear, were the cars actually faster or slower than competition? You can have many opinions here but my guess is that they were probably the fastest cars throughout - given that there were times when both Taylor, Stewart and Spence shone in a Lotus in non-title races that probably had less focus on the leader.
Ferrari 1966 - all due respect to Scarfiotti and Parkes but when they take a 1-2 at Monza against a field lije that, you might suspect the car had something to do with it.
Lotus 1967 - fast but very unreliable.
Lotus 1973 - ditto
Ferrari 1974 - ditto
Lotus 1977 - ditto
Williams 1979 - the FW07 took its time to get up to speed, but when it did, it was the class of the field
Renault 81-82 - during this period the Renault turbo cars dominated the early parts of races more often than not, but were always hampered by unreliability

Plus one from more recent times that hadn't been mentioned
Williams 91 - always felt it was the car to have that year ibstead of the McLaren, but unreliability and incompetence meant they lost a potential championship in something like 6 races

[George Costanza]

1999 and 2000.

[Marklar]

1999 and 2000.

Now I'm curious what the fastest car in 99 was given that both Ferrari & McLaren won titles

[Nobody]

2005 

 

still cut up about it

[Marklar]

Only taking seasons I actually followed since this is often the only way to really know what the quickest car was.

Imo you can make a case for 2000, 2007 (McLaren), 2003 (Williams), 2006, 2017, 2018 (Ferrari), 2009 (Red Bull) and 2012 (Lotus), though none of them are very clear. in fact I would strongly disagree about some of them.

2005 (McLaren) is often mentioned, but should only be considered if we strictly talk about speed. I disagree about the 2012 McLaren being even ignoring reliability the quickest car: half of the races they were nowhere (which often happened to be those they didnt break down), while Red Bull and Lotus were always there and thereabouts. a bit like last years Ferrari in qualifying.

[PlayboyRacer]

Now I'm curious what the fastest car in 99 was given that both Ferrari & McLaren won titles

Ferrari had their strong points but, on balance, McLaren. Comfortably. They lost the WCC, Ferrari didn't win it.

[Marklar]

Ferrari had their strong points but, on balance, McLaren. Comfortably. They lost the WCC, Ferrari didn't win it.

I took the topic question as quick cars that didnt win a title at all, so by mentioning 1999 you would imply that neither Ferrari nor McLaren were the quickest

[PlayboyRacer]

I took the topic question as quick cars that didnt win a title at all, so by mentioning 1999 you would imply that neither Ferrari nor McLaren were the quickest

Ah good point. Would probably help if I read the thread title properly LOL. It's still McLaren, either way!

[dissident]

My memory goes back to 1998 and since then:

 

- 2003: This was perhaps Michael's worst season before his comeback, but McLaren was not quite there on pace and Williams was overall a more consistent car, Ferrari really struggled during the hot summer. With better drivers or a clear #1 policy Williams would have won imo.

 

- 2005: after the Imola upgrade the McLaren was the fastest car, this one is pretty consensual

 

- 2006: a case can be made for this one as well, although I think the cars were evenly matched overall. Nevertheless I reckon 2002 Schumacher would have beaten Alonso.

 

- 2018: championship thrown away by Seb & Ferrari. I almost included 2017 as well, but Mercedes had an important qualy/engine advantage, even if Ferrari often had better race pace.

[Izzyeviel]

2009. The Brawns stopped being the fastest car after like 6 races. With a bit more luck Red Bull should've won both titles.

[john winfield]

A couple of people have mentioned 1974, and that's the season that stands out for me. Lauda and Ferrari were so quick that year, but a combination of unreliability, bad luck, and Niki's inexperience meant that he wasn't even close to the championship at the end, finishing fourth behind Fittipaldi / McLaren, Ferrari team-mate Regazzoni, and Scheckter / Tyrrell.

 

There were fifteen races that season. Niki took pole in nine of them, led at least eight, but won only two. Things got better in 1975!

Edited by john winfield, 13 May 2020 - 13:29.

[ARTGP]

2005 

 

still cut up about it

 

 

same same. I lost it at the European GP.   One hydraulics failure after another.  European GP tire explosion. Just regret after regret. Textbook "fast, but fragile".

[PlatenGlass]

Only taking seasons I actually followed since this is often the only way to really know what the quickest car was.

Imo you can make a case for 2000, 2007 (McLaren), 2003 (Williams), 2006, 2017, 2018 (Ferrari), 2009 (Red Bull) and 2012 (Lotus), though none of them are very clear. in fact I would strongly disagree about some of them.

2005 (McLaren) is often mentioned, but should only be considered if we strictly talk about speed. I disagree about the 2012 McLaren being even ignoring reliability the quickest car: half of the races they were nowhere (which often happened to be those they didnt break down), while Red Bull and Lotus were always there and thereabouts. a bit like last years Ferrari in qualifying.

I think the thing with the 2012 McLaren is that it was the fastest at Melbourne and the fastest at Interlagos, and people fill in the gaps. But I remember there being races where it was terrible - e.g. Silverstone.

 

I think the Lotus was a very good car and should have won more, but was it the fastest? I think even that might be a bit harsh on the drivers. I think the Red Bull was probably overall the best/fastest, but I also think the Ferrari of that year was massively under-rated and was consistent throughout. The Red Bull didn't really properly pick up until Singapore and had been pretty inconsistent until then. If the season ended after Monza (the race before Singapore), then Alonso would have been champion in unquestionably the best car up until that point in the season.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 14 May 2020 - 10:40.

[Spillage]

I think there's more to it than that. McLaren and Res Bull both won 7 races and both tool 8 pole positions, but McLaren would almost certainly have won more races with better reliability and would certainly have taken more poles if they'd kept Hamilton's in Barcelona.

But then, they probably had the best driver line-up. I don't personally think there was much to choose between Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel at that stage but I'm pretty sure Button was better than Webber and Massa.

[Lights]

and people in the gaps. 

 

[PlatenGlass]

Was unintentional, but I've inned the gap now.

[Sterzo]

These always tend to concentrate on post mid 80's, so I will go pre mid 80's

1951 - the Ferrari was probably faster than the Alfa Romeo by the end of the year
1957 - ditto Vanwall compared to the Maserati

We could also wonder about 1956, or possibly add Ferrari to the 1957 list of faster cars.

 

Ferrari and Maserati raced essentially the same cars in 1956 and 1957, updated but not fundamentally new designs. In 1956 Fangio was sitting in a Ferrari and it was faster than a Maserati. In 1957 he was sitting in a Maserati and it was faster than a Ferrari.

[Lights]

Was unintentional, but I've inned the gap now.

 

Yeah you could say that you 'filled' the gap. Don't get me wrong, I just liked it. Certainly one of the most amusing errors I've seen on here.

[Imateria]

I think the thing with the 2012 McLaren is that it was the fastest at Melbourne and the fastest at Interlagos, and people fill in the gaps. But I remember there being races where it was terrible - e.g. Silverstone.

 

I think the Lotus was a very good car and should have won more, but was it the fastest? I think even that might be a bit harsh on the drivers. I think the Red Bull was probably overall the best/fastest, but I also think the Ferrari of that year was massively under-rated and was consistent throughout. The Red Bull didn't really properly pick up until Singapore and had been pretty inconsistent until then. If the season ended after Monza (the race before Singapore), then Alonso would have been champion in unquestionably the best car up until that point in the season.

What? At no point was the Ferrari the fastest car at any race. I think it's quite clearly McLaren despite a few off races in the middle of the year, the number of wins they threw away through bad errors or unreliability cost Hamilton more than 100pts (the Singapore and Abu Dhabi gearbox failures, pit mistake in Malaysia, qualy error putting him to the back in Spain after a dominant pole lap, suspension problems in Japan and Korea)

[PlatenGlass]

What? At no point was the Ferrari the fastest car at any race. I think it's quite clearly McLaren despite a few off races in the middle of the year, the number of wins they threw away through bad errors or unreliability cost Hamilton more than 100pts (the Singapore and Abu Dhabi gearbox failures, pit mistake in Malaysia, qualy error putting him to the back in Spain after a dominant pole lap, suspension problems in Japan and Korea)

I wasn't saying that the Ferrari was the fastest overall, just that it was under-rated and the best (though not necessarily the fastest) up to around Monza. But it was certainly up there in pace around Silverstone/Hockenheim.

[frosty125]

As a McLaren fan 2005,2007 and 2012 definitely come to my mind.

[DeKnyff]

Depends very much on what you consider the "fastest car". Specially, if you bring reliability into the mix or not: fastest and reasonably reliable or just outright fastest, no matter if it doesn't finish the races? In my opinion, the second category are just fake fast cars, like some which have been mentioned here: Renault turbos, some Lotus, McLaren 2005...

[rodlamas]

Well, Mclaren threw away multiple WDCs and WCCs for reliability/stupid reasons while having the fastest car

 

• 1999 - WCC thrown away
• 2000 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2003 - WDC thrown away (although not in the fastest car)
• 2005 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2007 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2010 - WDC thrown away, though people tend to forget this (Barcelona wheel failure with 2 to go), maybe WCC
• 2012 - WDC thrown away and maybe WCC (though car was very inconsistent)

[George Costanza]

Now I'm curious what the fastest car in 99 was given that both Ferrari & McLaren won titles

IMHO for 2000, definitely McLaren. They had the better package. 1999 is a toss up. If Schumacher was in the '99 car I am sure he would have won.

[George Costanza]

<p>

Well, Mclaren threw away multiple WDCs and WCCs for reliability/stupid reasons while having the fastest car

• 1999 - WCC thrown away
• 2000 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2003 - WDC thrown away (although not in the fastest car)
• 2005 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2007 - WDC & WCC thrown away
• 2010 - WDC thrown away, though people tend to forget this (Barcelona wheel failure with 2 to go), maybe WCC
• 2012 - WDC thrown away and maybe WCC (though car was very inconsistent)

Yup. Agreed.

[PlayboyRacer]

IMHO for 2000, definitely McLaren. They had the better package. 1999 is a toss up. If Schumacher was in the '99 car I am sure he would have won.

McLaren had the faster car both seasons, on balance. Ferrari had patches where they were as quick though.

[George Costanza]

Mclaren of 1999 and 2000 had some reliability issues. Although Mika and David threw some bad races in 1999.

[George Costanza]

McLaren had the faster car both seasons, on balance. Ferrari had patches where they were as quick though.

I definitely agree there and Schumacher made the difference. Although 2000 was quite even at times, the McLaren definitely was quicker in the races. They had 14 out of 17 fastest laps that year. I am pretty sure if Mika had finished all thr races, he would have won the championship.

Edited by George Costanza, 14 May 2020 - 15:51.

[Atreiu]

Oh. It had been a while since we had a version of ‘Schumacher never had the fastest car’ thread. I rember when people tried to include the F2001 as well.

[PlayboyRacer]

Oh. It had been a while since we had a version of ‘Schumacher never had the fastest car’ thread. I rember when people tried to include the F2001 as well.

F2001? No. When that rolled around finally Michael got the best car for a season and, surprise, no one got near him.

'95-2000 can confirm he never had the fastest car for a whole season. Was quite something watching him weave his magic against the odds.

[George Costanza]

Oh. It had been a while since we had a version of ‘Schumacher never had the fastest car’ thread. I rember when people tried to include the F2001 as well.

From 2001-2006, I think Ferrari certainly had the better car. Even in 2005, the tires let that car down.

Edited by George Costanza, 14 May 2020 - 16:36.

[Button4life]

Only taking seasons I actually followed since this is often the only way to really know what the quickest car was.

Imo you can make a case for 2000, 2007 (McLaren), 2003 (Williams), 2006, 2017, 2018 (Ferrari), 2009 (Red Bull) and 2012 (Lotus), though none of them are very clear. in fact I would strongly disagree about some of them.

2005 (McLaren) is often mentioned, but should only be considered if we strictly talk about speed. I disagree about the 2012 McLaren being even ignoring reliability the quickest car: half of the races they were nowhere (which often happened to be those they didnt break down), while Red Bull and Lotus were always there and thereabouts. a bit like last years Ferrari in qualifying.

Silverstone was the only race where McLaren was nowhere in 2012. McLaren had the pace in Malaysia, China, Spain, Germany, Singapore and Abu Dhabi to win the race. They didn’t because of their own **** ups. Hamilton should’ve won Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Brazil. McLaren overall was definitely the fastest car. Lotus apart of Bahrain, Hungary and Abu Dhabi didn’t challenge for the win. Red Bull became really competitive after the summer break. Before the summer break they only scored 5 podiums.

Edited by Button4life, 14 May 2020 - 20:11.