41 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

I've been going through the photos I took at the Nurburgring in 2016...

 

Out of that there are two stories which came to 'top of mind' and, while I'd like to clarify them, I think it's got to be the trigger to bring up others from there and elsewhere.

 

The first, I feel sure it relates to Tazio Nuvolari, involves this scene:

 

 

No, it's not a part of the circuit, but it's a track which connects Klostertal with Hohe Acht...

 

 

The tale, or is it a fable, is that Nuvolari, in his determination to keep the Alfa in contention against the superior 1935 'Silver Arrows' cars, went out in practice and did a lap in which he took this track to cut about a mile off the circuit and be quickest of all.

 

The problem with it, if we're looking from our modern-day point of view, is that it would not give him a better grid position, they were allocated by ballot. But did he do it to demoralise the opposition?

 

Or did he do it at all?

 

 

Ah yes, the Karussell, the bit of the circuit he supposedly bypassed. Or did bypass. The story relating to the Karussell (and not to the doctor) is that Rudi Caracciola was keen to gain an advantage and thought it possible that by taking to the drainage ditch on the inside of the bend he could do just that.

 

Was it 1931? And in the SSK? To test the theory it's said that Rudi and his mechanic, Werner, went out when nobody else was around and drove around the ditch, Werner checking all the way that there was sufficient ground clearance.

 

According to Wikipedia, however, the story differs in this way:

 

It is named after German pre-WWII racing driver Rudolf Caracciola, who reportedly made the corner his own by hooking the inside tires into a drainage ditch to help his car "hug" the curve. As more concrete was uncovered and more competitors copied him, the trend took hold. At a later reconstruction, the corner was remade with real concrete banking, as it remains to this day.

 

While I want to (and prefer to) believe the original story, I wonder if it is a tale or a fable?

 

So what answers do we have to these questions, and what other 'Fables and Fantastic Tales' can we uncover?

[Tim Murray]

According to Chris Nixon in Racing the Silver Arrows it was Caracciola’s mechanic Wilhelm Sebastian who came up with the idea of using the Karussell ditch to gain an advantage:

[The Karussell] was unique and began life as an ordinary corner surrounding a ditch. To begin with the cars stayed on the road and drove around the ditch at a speed of around 50 km/h (30 mph), but one evening before the 1931 German GP, Caracciola’s mechanic, Wilhelm Sebastian, took his fellow-mechanic Willi Zimmer out in the racing Mercedes and, very carefully and daringly, drove around the Karussell on the banked side of the ditch ! While Sebastian drove, Zimmer checked the ground clearance and they found that by taking the corner like that they could go much faster, centrifugal force holding the car on the road. Sebastian duly reported his findings to Caracciola, who used this new-found technique during the race, which he won. Other drivers soon caught on to this device and it was not long before the ditch was properly surfaced and Sebastian’s brainwave became the accepted way of taking the Karussell.

Cyril Posthumus in The German Grand Prix also credited Sebastian with the discovery, but dated it as 1928-29.

[Ray Bell]

I know I didn't read it in either of those books, Tim, so thanks for the correction and corroboration...

 

The books I've read which could have mentioned it would have been Rudi's biography (borrowed from Mike Kable in 1962!) and the Neubauer book, Speed Was My Life which so many enjoy decrying.

 

And how about the Nuvolari incident? I feel sure I read about that in Road & Track some time in 1963 or 1964.

[Tim Murray]

The account in the Neubauer book essentially matches what Chris Nixon wrote but includes a bit of extra embroidery. Presumably then Nixon would have used Neubauer as his primary source. I can’t find any mention in the Caracciola book.

[arttidesco]

 

Decided discretion was the better part of valour on both occasisons I had the opportunity to dip into the ditch the first in my ancient Volvo 240 and the second in a hired C180 with not much more than delivery mileage on it, look forward to taking my MX5 through it properly at the earliest opportunity ;-)

 

[Charlieman]

I always thought that the Karussell story was a bit iffy, but keep an open mind.

 

You were never able to pass on bikes at the last corner of the Catalunya circuit unless the rider in front made a mistake. When Rossi passed Lorenzo, there was a rising sound in the crowd, followed by a few silent seconds of disbelief. Nowadays, bikers see it as an attacking corner...

 

What is the photo evidence for and against the Karussell tale? Why would you build a ditch bank wide enough (1.5 metres) for a racing car and with a decent surface? Inside and outside parallel tracks for what purpose? How did the cars go from outside the ditch to inside and outside again?

[Ray Bell]

I think that was the point of Zimmer checking the ground clearance as they drove around it...

 

It wasn't surfaced, it was merely graded to form a drainage ditch. Later it got concreted in such a manner that it eased entry and exit to the banked part.

 

Yes, an early photograph would be good.

[BRG]

Isn't this just ditch-hooking?  Rally drivers do it all the time, and the 'Ring was more like a modern day rally stage than a race track back in those days.

[funformula]

Not mentioned of when these pictures were taken, probably mid 30´s

https://www.motor-kritik.de/node/1319

Edited by funformula, 17 May 2020 - 13:17.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by BRG
Isn't this just ditch-hooking?  Rally drivers do it all the time, and the 'Ring was more like a modern day rally stage than a race track back in those days.

I don't think so, not really...

Every photo I've ever seen the cars are wholly down on the embankment where it's now been concreted. Just like this from '36 or so:

Originally posted by funformula
Not mentioned of when these pictures were taken, probably mid '30s
https://www.motor-kritik.de/node/1319

Well, actually, there is a photo of a Tipo B Alfa charging down into the Karussell banking in the first bunch of pics on that page.

[Ray Bell]

Further to you comment, funformula, this is some of the text on that page:

 

The second photo shows the “carousel” as it was then, because the “slope” that was used today was initially only part of a drainage ditch, which - as you can see - was then used regularly.

 

However, I'm not so convinced that picture is the Karussell. It doesn't fit the description of the Sebastian/Zimmer adventure and it's not wide or deep enough to compare with the Tipo B photo. I'll leave the background out of it because I understand trees can grow over so many years, but it would be helpful to the understanding if we knew when this photo was taken.

[Parkesi]

Just checked tale/fable regarding the Steilstrecke/Nuvolari.

There is a link: http://www.pro-steil...teilstrecke.php, see "Anekdoten"/1925-1934 - which reports of Auto Union

tests on the Nordschleife done by Hans Stuck sen. and HE used the Steilstrecke to cut short the circuit without being noticed. The lap time caused

some consternation but in the evening, while dining with his team, Stuck sen. confessed his swindle. Anecdote according to Hans Stuck jr.

Karussel: the "ditch-variant" was first used 18./19.03.1931 and made official one year later by building a "concrete bowl".

But be aware there is a small  Karussel (concrete) in Schwalbenschwanz/second curve left - maybe the picture of #6 was taken there?   

[Parkesi]

http://www.pro-steilstrecke.de

[Charlieman]

Isn't this just ditch-hooking?

We may have a problem about the definition of 'ditch'.

A muddy trench alongside a significant road? Or do Germans have a different definition?

There are two themes running around:
* Caracciola ran outside the corner, racing on rubble with tyres on the inside of his apex or turning circle -- maybe ditch hooking.
* Caracciola ran on a surface inside the corner which looked better than a racing circuit, bizarrely ignored by fellow competitors, and somehow accessible on the other side of a ditch.

[kyle936]

 

Further to your comment, funformula, this is some of the text on that page:

 

The second photo shows the “carousel” as it was then, because the “slope” that was used today was initially only part of a drainage ditch, which - as you can see - was then used regularly.

 

However, I'm not so convinced that picture is the Karussell. It doesn't fit the description of the Sebastian/Zimmer adventure and it's not wide or deep enough to compare with the Tipo B photo. I'll leave the background out of it because I understand trees can grow over so many years, but it would be helpful to the understanding if we knew when this photo was taken.

 

 

I think the Tipo B photo is of Caracciola's winning Alfa in the 1932 German Grand Prix, although whether it's at the Karussell is questionable, right enough - the concrete sections start right at the beginning of the corner - so it could be Schwalbenschwanz, the mini-Karussell, as Parkesi has suggested (the concrete starts just after entry there). There are other corners on the Nordschleife with steep cambers, but not quite so pronounced, AFAIK (not that I've ever been there!).

 

[kyle936]

Anyway, this is how it's done - a nutcase called Andy Cooney in his old ex-post office van 'The Cat'...

 

https://www.youtube....e=youtu.be&t=11

 

Can't imagine Wilhelm Sebastian, Willi Zimmer or Rudi Caracciola could ever have envisaged such a thing.

[Allan Lupton]

That Caracciola photo appears in Thora Hornung's "50 Jahres Nürburgring" but the caption doesn't say where it is. I think it's the Karussell as the same book has a photo of Schwalbenschwanz banking in construction and the land in the background seems to slope down from the track edge. There are big trees behind the hedge in the book's version of the Caracciola picture which would have nowhere to grow next to Schwalbenschwanz.

I can't be bothered with remote hosting so can't post the Schwalbenschwanz in construction photo which isn't dated anyway.

[D-Type]

I read the story I some 50-60 years ago which said Caracciola saw the possibilities of dropping into the ditch and treating it as a banked corner,  I don't recall whether the tale said whetyher the slpopesof the ditch was concrete-lined for stability against erosion.

[68targa]

I think the Tipo B photo is of Caracciola's winning Alfa in the 1932 German Grand Prix, although whether it's at the Karussell is questionable, right enough - the concrete sections start right at the beginning of the corner - so it could be Schwalbenschwanz, the mini-Karussell, as Parkesi has suggested (the concrete starts just after entry there). There are other corners on the Nordschleife with steep cambers, but not quite so pronounced, AFAIK (not that I've ever been there!).

 

This photo has been reproduced in several books including  Chris Nixon's  Kings of the Nurburgring where he quotes Afred Neubauer in 1931 claiming that Caracciola was the first driver to use the unpaved 'ditch' in the Karussell. Nixon says " it is a very good story and has the ring of truth about it ... although Caracciola makes no mention of the incident in his book".
The photo is captioned as Caracciola in the P3 in 1932. presumably after it was 'paved'. The surface appears to be the same as the upper part of the track.

[BRG]

We may have a problem about the definition of 'ditch'.

A muddy trench alongside a significant road? Or do Germans have a different definition?

There are two themes running around:
* Caracciola ran outside the corner, racing on rubble with tyres on the inside of his apex or turning circle -- maybe ditch hooking.
* Caracciola ran on a surface inside the corner which looked better than a racing circuit, bizarrely ignored by fellow competitors, and somehow accessible on the other side of a ditch.

Such thing come in all sizes.  Some might indeed be a muddy trench, others might be a grassy verge.  The common feature is the way that the 'ditch' holds the car into the apex of the bend allowing the driver to hold a higher speed.

 

There used to a sweeping bend in the Warren Heath forest near Eversley, Hants.  It had a ditch that was effectively a continuation of the road surface, much like the picture of Carraciola above.  A deep 'hook' there could allow you to keep your speed 10 or 15 mph higher than if you ran round on the road proper.

 

We got a nasty shock when the Forestry Commission put some bollards in the ditch, apparently to stop their own logging trucks from doing the same!

[Charlieman]

There used to a sweeping bend in the Warren Heath forest near Eversley, Hants.  It had a ditch that was effectively a continuation of the road surface, much like the picture of Carraciola above.  A deep 'hook' there could allow you to keep your speed 10 or 15 mph higher than if you ran round on the road proper.

Interesting to know that. Did you ever cross the ditch, drive around on the inside for 682 milliseconds, and then return across a non-existent bridge?

[Ray Bell]

Like you appear to be, Charlieman...
 
I cannot understand why BRG rejects the idea that it was wide enough to become a full embankment. I mean to say, there are thousands of photos of cars fully on the concrete there, it's not merely a matter of putting the inside wheels over a lip.
 
I do think the right angle on the Schwalbenschwanz might reveal enough for us to say that's where the other photo was taken.
 

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
.....I can't be bothered with remote hosting so can't post the Schwalbenschwanz in construction photo which isn't dated anyway.

This could be the answer, could you e.mail it to me, Allan?

[Allan Lupton]

This could be the answer, could you e.mail it to me, Allan?

Thanks, Ray, it's on its way.
 

[BRG]

I cannot understand why BRG rejects the idea that it was wide enough to become a full embankment. 

 

I don't.   I merely mentioned that it might have started with a simple bit of rally-style ditch-hooking, but subsequent photographic evidence seems to suggest that this wasn't the case.

[Michael Ferner]

I'm fairly sure the Monoposto pic is from the Karussell, that to me doesn't look at all like the Schwalbenschwanz. As for the origin of the legend, I always wondered, too. We need pics of the Karussell before the banking was built. I'm not sure which word was used by Caratsch in the original statement, maybe "Rabatt", or "Graben". While the latter is much like the English ditch, the former (which is pretty much out of usage these days) is more of something fairly shallow, where you can drop in a wheel without fear of consequences.

 

As for the Nivola and Stuck stories about taking a shortcut via the Steilstrecke, well yeah. It used to be that people came up with all kinds of wild stories, just to keep conversation flowing. Step up, Baron von Münchhausen!

[kyle936]

There's also this photo from funformula's link, although it's not clear whether it's of the Karussell originally under construction or in the process of being 'properly resurfaced' as in Tim's quote from Racing the Silver Arrows in post #2. I suspect it's the latter, though.

 

Edited by kyle936, 18 May 2020 - 12:55.

[Allan Lupton]

That Caracciola photo appears in Thora Hornung's "50 Jahres Nürburgring" but the caption doesn't say where it is. I think it's the Karussell as the same book has a photo of Schwalbenschwanz banking in construction and the land in the background seems to slope down from the track edge. There are big trees behind the hedge in the book's version of the Caracciola picture which would have nowhere to grow next to Schwalbenschwanz.

I can't be bothered with remote hosting so can't post the Schwalbenschwanz in construction photo which isn't dated anyway.

The photo I wrote this about is the one in kyle936's post and the caption in the book is clear that it's Schwalbenschwanz.

[kyle936]

The photo I wrote this about is the one in kyle936's post and the caption in the book is clear that it's Schwalbenschwanz.

Oh, right, I get you now - sorry, I didn't read your previous post carefully enough.

 

So presumably the Schwalbenschwanz banking would have been constructed after the Karussell was similarly modified?

[Ray Bell]

And here is Allan's picture, along with the caption:

 

 

And to save the need for translation, I've done that:

 

There are still horse-drawn carriages and limousines on the swallowtail, but you can already see the mini-steep wall through which the racing cars will thunder in the future.

 

I also had a look at Google Earth and the cleared areas in the background here, while not the same as today, do correspond with areas cleared today which are not now visible due to the growth of trees near the road. Nowhere around the Karussell do you seem to get that sort of background.

[kayemod]

I don't think anyone has suggested one possible additional factor. Maybe the original Karussell configuration had a "ditch" that was less pronounced than what it was made into, maybe just enough to hook a wheel over, as spotted by Rudolf, and that it was enlarged into something like its current form, at the same time that the surface was turned into an extension of the existing road surface, and hard surfaced or concreted over. If that area had been any larger, surely many other drivers would already have tried what would obviously have been a faster way around the corner. In Ray's photo above, the earth bank on the inside of the corner appears to have been fairly extensively re-shaped, as it would have been if the new sloped area was to be roughly a car's width, as seen in more recent photos.

[Ray Bell]

As I pointed out in Post 7...

 

If it was merely slipping a wheel over the edge then the need for Zimmer and Sebastian to go out and check ground clearance wouldn't have existed.

 

Which 'Ray's photo above' are you asking about here?

[kayemod]

As I pointed out in Post 7...

 

If it was merely slipping a wheel over the edge then the need for Zimmer and Sebastian to go out and check ground clearance wouldn't have existed.

 

Which 'Ray's photo above' are you asking about here?

1: I think you've missed my point, hooking a wheel over the edge of the existing road, even to grab a few additional inches, would have lowered the car, hence the need to check ground clearances.

 

2: The photo from Alan in your post #29 that preceded mine.

[Michael Ferner]

But that's at the Schwalbenschwanz! There is no earth bank on the inside of Karussell, and to the best of my knowledge, never was.

[kyle936]

My post #26 above might have caused a bit of confusion, sorry - I wrongly assumed it was of the Karussell under construction when, as Allan, Ray and now Michael have explained, it's Schwalbenschwanz.

[Terry Walker]

Yeah, the caption actually says "Schwalbenschwantz".

[kyle936]

Just watched the 1983 Nurburgring 1000 Km, the very last to be run on the Nordschleife, on dailymotion, and it's interesting that Derek Bell appears to be the only one of the Porsche 956 drivers to use the banking at the Karussell in the race - even Stefan Bellof, his co-driver in the #2 956, who set fastest lap before crashing catastrophically at Pflantzgarten, went around the outside. They all seem to have used the banking in qualifying, but in the race some just barely hooked their inside wheels over the outside lip of the banking while others drove completely around the outside (might have been a case of 'Singer says...'). They all used the banking at Schwalbenschwanz, though, and the other Group C cars such as Lancia and Sauber used the full banking at Karussell in the race.

 

You can see them all negotiating the Karussell from around 24 minutes in the video. Bell uses the banking at Karussell @ around 35:15 (it's a highlights video, mind you, so there's a chance that particular shot might have been from practice).

 

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x3vewos

 

(Some folk might roll their eyes at this, but it jarred to hear Jochen Mass and Stefan Bellof being referred to in the commentary as 'West German', as of course they were then - don't know about anyone else, but 1983 just doesn't seem that long ago.)

 

One other thing I remember reading about that race: Keke Rosberg in the Canon 956 got absolutely swamped at the rolling start - it was his first, and I think only, drive in a 956, and the team had neglected to tell him to turn the turbo boost up, as everyone else did! It would only be at the end of that year, at the South African Grand Prix, that he would race a Williams with a turbocharged engine.

[kayemod]

My post #26 above might have caused a bit of confusion, sorry - I wrongly assumed it was of the Karussell under construction when, as Allan, Ray and now Michael have explained, it's Schwalbenschwanz.

Ah yes, that will teach me to pay more attention to photo, especially their captions when posting late at night, but it seems I wasn't the only one to make that mistake. As Doug would probably say though, "Yes, I was wondering which of you would be the first to spot that..."

 

I'll salvage a small amount from my earlier post though, the photo of Schwalbenschwanz shows that track owners back then as now, had a tendency to tweak corners etc, to increase speeds, no doubt hoping to increase marketability and spectator appeal. It seems unlikely that the original Karussell had a "ditch" or whatever it was, that was wide enough and more importantly smooth and firm enough, to be driven around at racing speeds, hence my supposition that what Rudolf tried, evidently to good effect, was to hook one side of his car over the edge of the metalled surface, which would also probably have the additional effect of banking his car slightly.

 

I've always been too mean to splash out on Chris Nixon's Kings of the Nürburgring, can anyone check that volume? No mention in the same author's Racing the Silver Arrows, at least as far as I can see, we need contemporary before and after photos.

[68targa]

I far as I can see Chris Nixon's book Kings of the Nurburgring does not have any photos of the Karussell being constructed, however there is a description of a lap of the circuit which appeared in The Motor when it reported on the 1931 German Grand Prix. To quote Nixon:

 

" In the fashion of the day the report was anonymous, but it was the work of Sports Editor Humphery Symons who, writing as Grande Vitesse, complied the magazines regular sporting column on Road & Track. That year marked the first time that either The Motor or The Autocar reported the race at first hand, having previously resorted to a few paragraphs from the wire services"

 

I have marked the paragraph referring to the Karussell.

 

The photo is of Schwallenschwanz which appears not to have any 'banking' although a nice 'ditch', but not one to put a wheel into. However this is the entry to the corner and I think that the 'banking' may start further round the bend. Interesting to compare with the photo post #26 showing the construction. I have a feeling that Schwallenschwanz is almost a double apex corner and the 'banking' is on the exit of the corner  Those more familar with the circuit might like to verify.

 

[kyle936]

@ 34:40 in the footage of the 1983 'Ring 1000 Kms, there's a really good aerial shot of the leaders going into and through Schwalbenschwanz and it looks as though the banking starts well before the tightest part of the corner, almost certainly quite well before where Carraciola's Mercedes is in the photo from 1931. If you start watching from 34:30, the views of Schwalbenschwanz start just after the shot of the sixth placed Lancia.

 

https://www.dailymot...m/video/x3vewos

[arttidesco]

 

Schwallenschwanz Dec 2019

 

Ditch has been filled in and concreted over from someway back of the SSKL's position in the 1931 photo ;-)

 

[Parkesi]

YouTube/"Hubert Hahne 1967 Nordschleife Onboard" - 4:00 mins of footage.

Hahne (F2 BMW) is followed by a Formula V with a camera.

They lead you through Karussel and also through Schwalbenschwanz / little Karussel.

One gets a good understanding of each lay-out so one or two questions should be answered.

[2F-001]

 I have a feeling that Schwallenschwanz is almost a double apex corner and the 'banking' is on the exit of the corner  Those more familar with the circuit might like to verify.

 

 

I rather depends on how much of that section of the circuit one chooses to describe as Schwalbenschwanz; the sequence that actually describes the shape of a swallow's tail (or schwalbenshwanz) is a series of several bends, only one of which has the shallow concrete paved banking. I've always thought of it a s a circuit section rather than a corner, and the "kleine karussel' as the bend with the banking.