23 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

 Does someone have further information on this, like who finished second, third etc., points scored or championship rounds? All I can find is Roy Pike listed as champion, and a list of qualifying rounds on motorsportwinners.com which can't be right (it would mean that Pike won the title not only without winning a race, but without actually competing in one!). This was the championship won by Jackie Stewart the year before, when basically all F 3 races supporting F 1 and F 2 in Britain counted, but in 1965 the BARC apparently failed to find a sponsor, and so the championship died until it was resurrected in 1970 as the Forward Trust title.

 

Any snippet you can provide is welcome, maybe I can work out the rest myself.

[nexfast]

Michael: there are a number of results here:

 

http://racecarstory....org/1965-1.html

 

Just scroll down until you get to Great Britain Races. For each meeting there are results, including F3 . Does not answer directly your quest but could be helpful (and Roy Pike did win a bunch of races that year).

[heidegger75]

I had a look through the F3 results on Stefan Ornerdal's Formula 2 Register. For some of the races, it's necessary to use the Internet Archive version as some of the links are broken on the current site.

 

It seems that the events listed by motorsportwinners.com were all BARC club races, rather than the BARC championship. Here's what I found for Pike that season:

 

Mar 20     Silverstone    BARC 200            Roy Pike 9th
Apr 3    Oulton Park    Spring Trophy            Roy Pike 1st
Apr 19    Goodwood    Chichester Cup            Roy Pike 1st
May 15    Silverstone    BRDC International Trophy    Roy Pike 2nd
June 6    Brands Hatch    500 Challenge Trophy        Roy Pike 2nd
June 7    Goodwood    Reg Parnell Trophy        Roy Pike 8th
July 10    Silverstone    BRDC Trophy            Roy Pike 1st
July 24    Silverstone    Martini Trophy            Roy Pike dnf
July 31    Crystal Palace    Bromley Bowl            Roy Pike dnq (crashed in first heat)
Aug 30    Brands Hatch    British Eagle Trophy (F2)    Roy Pike 13th overall; 1st in F3 class
Sept 18    Oulton Park    International Gold Cup        Roy Pike 1st
Oct 3    Brands Hatch    Silver Salver Trophy        Roy Pike dnf
Dec 26    Brands Hatch    Lombank Trophy        Roy Pike 4th
 

It's possible that there are other races in the championship for which Pike was not listed. It is also possible that one or more of these races took place outside of the BARC championship. But this should be a good starting point to try to fit the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

Nothing found that would help with point standings, however.

[DCapps]

This struck a chord and I had to do the usual searching all over the place for something that I had not seen in years....

 

I did find my copy of Formula 3, 1964-1966 (1991), the Fact Book that the Formula 1 Register did some years ago. Along with the FJ Fact Books, I bought it thanks to Cliff Haworth being among those campaigning F3 in 1965/66.

 

Roy Pike was entered by the following: * California Racing Partnership; ** The Chequered Flag // Brabham BT16 Ford.

 

Mar 20* / Silverstone / BARC 200/Silver Service 200 Meeting / 9th

 

Apr 3* / Oulton Park / Spring Trophy / 1st, FL

 

Apr 19** / Goodwood / Chichester Cup / 1st

 

<Apr 25* / Pau / Coupe de Vitesse / 1st, FL >

 

<May 05** / Magny-Cours / GP de Magny Cours / Heat 2, 1st; Final, 1st >

 

<May 09** / Zolder / GP van Zolder / Heat 1, 1st; Final, 2nd >

 

May 15** / Silverstone / BRDC International Trophy Meeting / 2nd

 

<May 29** / Monaco / GP Meeting / Heat 2, crash >

 

June 6** / Brands Hatch / £500 Challenge Trophy / 2nd

 

June 7** / Goodwood / Reg Parnell Trophy / 8th

 

<June 20** / Caserta / Coppa d'Oro Pasquale Amato / Heat 1, 6th; Final, 6th >

 

<June 27** / Monza / GP della Lotteria di Monza / Heat 2, 15th >

 

July 10** / Silverstone / BRDC Trophy  / 1st, FL

 

July 24** / Silverstone / Aston Martin Owners Club Trophy /  rtd,, fuel pump

 

July 31** / Crystal Palace / Bromley Bowl / Heat 1, rtd,, crash

 

<Aug 29** / Zandvoort / Zandvoort Trophy / 5th

 

Aug 30** / Brands Hatch / British Eagle Trophy (F2) / 13th overall; 1st in F3 class

 

<Sept 12** / Zolder / 10th overall

 

Sept 18** / Oulton Park / International Gold Cup Meeting / 1st

 

Oct 3** / Motor Racing Brands Hatch /Silver Salver Trophy  / rtd., oil leak

 

Dec 26** / Brands Hatch / Lombank Trophy / 4th

 

// Not sure how helpful this is, but it should cover all the F3 events that Pike competed in that season. Alas, I was unable to find the points standings, sorry. I do think that I saw it Autosport, but.... //
 

[raceannouncer2003]

Here is a link to the British F3 results on Stefan Ornerdal's Formula 2 Register that heidegger75 mentioned:

 

https://web.archive....365_IndexGB.htm

 

Vince H.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, guys! Actually, this time I'm after the championship results, I'm fine with race results. I can guess which races were qualifying rounds, but I would love to have some concrete evidence to bolster my guessing. I think I have exhausted all sources that are available to me; there's nothing in Autocourse, Motor Sport or on the web to be found, as far as I can tell, also in Cooper, Lotus or Brabham books by Messrs Nye and Lawrence. Autosport would be my big hope, although I have found the Seasonal Survey by Paul Watson (1966 Jan 28) on the web and there's zilch about championships in it. I can only hope that Autosport (or maybe Motoring News?) mentioned the championship once in a while, perhaps published final or even only intermediate points - everything helps!!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 19 May 2020 - 08:42.

[Roger Clark]

I found no mention of this championship in the last three months of 1965 nor the first three months of 1966 in either Motoring News or Autosport. I only looked at Sports News and Track Topics, not every race report but MN was usually very good at printing standings and results of even minor championships. There is no mention of it in any Goodwood programmes for 1965 or 66; all of those meetings were organised by the BARC and most of them featured a Formula 3 race. 
 

Are we sure it existed?

[Michael Ferner]

Many thanks for taking the trouble, Roger!

 

"Are we sure it existed?"

 

I'm beginning to question it, too... This is something I can't resolve from here (@work), but I'll have a look at home - I'm guessing I had it from the Kettlewell directories, it's where most of my British F 3 championship information came from. So sorry if it turns out I send you on a chase of wild geese...

[DCapps]

I found no mention of this championship in the last three months of 1965 nor the first three months of 1966 in either Motoring News or Autosport. I only looked at Sports News and Track Topics, not every race report but MN was usually very good at printing standings and results of even minor championships. There is no mention of it in any Goodwood programmes for 1965 or 66; all of those meetings were organised by the BARC and most of them featured a Formula 3 race. 
 

Are we sure it existed?

 

 

Many thanks for taking the trouble, Roger!

 

"Are we sure it existed?"

 

I'm beginning to question it, too... This is something I can't resolve from here (@work), but I'll have a look at home - I'm guessing I had it from the Kettlewell directories, it's where most of my British F 3 championship information came from. So sorry if it turns out I send you on a chase of wild geese...

I spent some additional time nosing around my files (hence the bleary-eyed look) since this really began to bug me and Roger confirms what I was beginning to think regarding its existence. That I could not find even any partial, in-season standings puzzled me after what would appear to be a round began to concern me. I thought it might be due to so gaps in my files, but after reading what Roger writes, I think that there might good & sufficient reason to doubt its existence. Which would be a surprise to me given that I always, even from the time, assumed that there was one....

[john winfield]

You can't rely on the programmes either. As far as I can remember, the 1965 Silverstone International Trophy programme has a detailed F3 entry, names the trophy to be awarded to the winner (as mentioned above, Roy was second, to Piers Courage), but makes no mention of a championship. But I think the same applied to the Saloon Car race which counted towards the BRSCC British Championship. Those programmes were excellent for details of past winners, perhaps not so hot on current championship tables.

[Rupertlt1]

Goodwood, Event One, F3 Race for Reg Parnell Trophy, 2.00 p.m., Monday 7th June 1965

Programme makes no mention of a B.A.R.C. F3 Championship.

 

RGDS RLT

[Michael Ferner]

Okay, I have checked the Kettlewell directories, and also a "Guinness" Motor Racing book I have which has some info on early British F 3, but neither lists Pike. I'm not sure, I may have found it on the net, but usually then I mark the info as "suspect" - not in this case. I notice Stefan has it on his site, and while most of it is well researched I'm not sure I would have trusted him on that, but maybe I did. For good measure, the official British F 3 site https://www.britishf...m/hall-of-fame/ has Pike listed a s a 1965 champion, but I don't know whether that means much. Probably copied it from some place on the web, who would have copied Stefan Örnerdal. That's the way it goes these days, you can't be careful enough who you believe. I'm sorry for sending you all out on a wild goose chase, but this one's on me.

 

 

Roger, if I may, while you have the MN not yet stashed away again, and you say they were good on point standings, can you give the BRSCC F 3 standings from 1965, won by Tony Dean? I have no info on that, either, except for the race listing on motorsportwinners.com which looks like it was compiled the same way as the one for the BARC title - every race with the club's name in the title on Stefan's site!?!

[Roger Clark]

I’ll have a look in the morning. 
 

Geoffrey Dempsey’s Motor Racing Register says the BRSCC was open to club members at their closed and restricted race meetings at Brands, Snetterton and Castle Combe. Points were 1st: 4, 2nd 2 3rd 1   Final standings:

 

1st Dean (Repco-Brabham-Ford) 14 points

2nd = Mervyn Long (Lotus-Ford)

           Piers Courage (Repco-Brabham-Ford)

           John Ewer (Repco-Brabham-Ford). All on 8 points

5th - Chris Irwin (Repco-Brabham-Ford) 7 points. 

Edited by Roger Clark, 19 May 2020 - 17:34.

[Michael Ferner]

Ahh, thanks a bunch, Roger!

[Charles E Taylor]

Roy Pike

 

From some deep distant memory, I can recall hearing that at one time Roy Pike held the F3 Lap Record at every British circuit the series visited.

If that is true, it is a remarkable achievement.

 

Does anyone have anything more?

 

 

 

Charlie.

[Stephen W]

Sept 18th 1965 Oulton Park & the International Gold Cup Meeting

 

Went through the programme and there was no mention of the F3 Championship which isn't surprising as the club organising the event was NOT the BARC. There was a mention of the Autosport F2 Championship probably because it wasn't run by a different club but by a third party plus the 1965 Gold Cup was for F2 cars.

[Michael Ferner]

Stephen, championship rounds were not always or necessarily organised by the club that sponsored the championship! In 1964, events contributing points to the BARC championship were staged by the BRSCC, BRDC, and the SMRC, I believe.

 

This may also be as good a time as any to mention that there's a slight mistake on Stefan's site regarding the 1964 BARC title, which curiously seems to have happened to every other web source mentioning that championship (what are the odds? ). Round 9 was not the International Gold Cup meeting at Oulton Park on September 19, but the Vanwall Trophy meeting at Snetterton the following weekend.

[Stephen W]

Stephen, championship rounds were not always or necessarily organised by the club that sponsored the championship! In 1964, events contributing points to the BARC championship were staged by the BRSCC, BRDC, and the SMRC, I believe.

 

 

Michael, I appreciate that and was trying to point out that maybe other clubs didn't want to publicise rival clubs who were the "organisers" of a championship. It was often the case in the 1960s and early '70s that a race would be a round of a national championship yet in the programme it would just say F3 Race.

[RAP]

The mid-60s is very much “my period” when I was going to lots of racing. In our Formula One Register F3 record books I have included all the UK championships based on the programmes of the day.

I have not found evidence of ANY British F3 championship in 1965. I would be most interested to see any contrary evidence

 

It is possible that one of the magazines published an end of season unofficial “championship” that cited Pike as the “winner” but for me such opinions would not have historical validity unless it was a series announced pre-season and scored as the year went along as, for example, the Express & Star did in 1963 and 64.

 

I was not aware of the BRSCC members' championship

one always learns something new!!

 

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com 

[Red Socks]

Do you want me to ask Roy?

[Michael Ferner]

If you have possibilities to contact him, what's stopping you?

[pete53]

I too don't recall there being an official Formula 3 championship in 1965. As mentioned earlier by RAP, it's possible that a journal such as Autosport did a season survey, as they often did, and graded performances. Certainly in the preceding season of 1964 there was the F3 Express & Star championship, and in the following year, 1966, the F3 Les Leston championship, but I can see no evidence of anything for Formula 3 in 1965.

 

In fact, since posting my reply a couple of hours ago, I have had a look through a number of race programmes from meetings that year which featured F3 - both International and club events, and can see no mention of any races counting toward a championship.

Edited by pete53, 26 May 2020 - 10:59.

[RAP]

Mention of the Les Leston Championship in 1966 prompts me to point out that this was basically a club racing championship with races confined to the MCD circuits of Brands Hatch, Snetterton & Mallory Park.

 

It did not include the internationals at Goodwood, Silverstone, Aintree etc so it should not be thought of as representing a British Championship.

 

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com

[pete53]

Mention of the Les Leston Championship in 1966 prompts me to point out that this was basically a club racing championship with races confined to the MCD circuits of Brands Hatch, Snetterton & Mallory Park.

 

It did not include the internationals at Goodwood, Silverstone, Aintree etc so it should not be thought of as representing a British Championship.

 

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com

There wasn't really another F3 championship that had rounds at major meetings across the country until 1970 and the Shell/Motor Sport series.