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Two places at once?


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#1 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 13:25

Something has been confusing me for a while and I wonder if the combined wisdom of this forum can resolve it? On July 3rd 1966, Jacky Ickx competed in the F2 race at Reims (where his Matra failed to finish) but other respected sources show that he also competed in the Nurburgring 6-Hours Touring Car race on the same day (where the Lotus Cortina he allegedly shared with Paul Hawkins retired with wheel-bearing failure). Interestingly, I have seen photographs showing Jacky at Reims but none showing him at the Nurburgring. My guess is that he was originally scheduled to participate in the German race, but did not do so, that his place was taken by another driver (who?) and the official entry and results statistics were never amended; but I have no evidence to support this theory. Can anyone cast any light on the truth of the matter?



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#2 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 13:36

The Formula Two race actually was on Saturday, July 2. I guess that would make it possible for him to have been at the Ring the next day.



#3 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 14:21

Thanks Michael - I was about to remove the post as I have just found that out from Jenks' contemporary report. Odd that the usually precise reference sites have that one wrong!

 

I hope all is good with you and yours, and that you are all covid-free.


Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 22 May 2020 - 14:21.


#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 15:07

I checked Autosport in case Ickx’s double drive got a mention, but no joy. Jacky retired his Matra from the Reims F2 race with a sick BRM engine, and on the following day at the Ring both the Alan Mann Lotus Cortinas of John Whitmore/Frank Gardner and Jacky Ickx/Paul Hawkins retired after less than an hour with wheel bearing failures due to the increased loads caused by the new wider tyres they were using.

#5 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 15:58

Cheers Tim - much appreciated.



#6 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 17:54

Thanks Michael - I was about to remove the post as I have just found that out from Jenks' contemporary report. Odd that the usually precise reference sites have that one wrong!

 

I hope all is good with you and yours, and that you are all covid-free.

 

Thanks, Jon, all is fine here in the Vaterland :)

 

Don't know if that's odd, I find date discrepancies all the time. Even in the best books!!



#7 pete53

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 22:30

The Formula Two race actually was on Saturday, July 2. I guess that would make it possible for him to have been at the Ring the next day.

Indeed, more than possible. It was not that unusual in that  era, when top drivers often competed in more than one category of racing, for them to compete in one country on one day and jet off to another country to race the next day.



#8 Nick Wa

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 05:24

Reims to the Ring is between 310 & 360km according to route taken. Under modern conditions all the different routes take about 3 hours 45 minutes. The biggest problem would be getting out of the paddock. I assume there was parking behind the main grandstand use of which would be the planned option.



#9 D-Type

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 11:22

Thanks, Jon, all is fine here in the Vaterland :)

 

Don't know if that's odd, I find date discrepancies all the time. Even in the best books!!

 

It's strange, as you would expect dates to be the easiest thing to check - maybe it's some form of "number-blindness" that afflicts those with the ability to write.

The other major source of error I find is in picture captions.  They seem to get scrutinised less carefully than the text. 



#10 Allan Lupton

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 11:54

The other major source of error I find is in picture captions.  They seem to get scrutinised less carefully than the text. 

That would be because the pictures, and therefore their captions, are often added as the last process - I can cite the second edition of a book on my favoured make where some captions make no sense as, although the typist knew he/she could not read the author's handwriting, the commonsense to ask was lacking and nonsense was published. e.g. the name Ayscough became Syscoden. . .
 



#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 12:08

Jacky Ickx was - as you might imagine - a gifted and very rapid road driver.  

 

One year photographer Geoff Goddard was leaving the Nurburgring before the race had ended in order to catch a flight home from Brussels, process his films early and deliver them promptly to the magazine customer in time for press deadline.  

 

In the car park he found Jacky Ickx whose race entry had retired and he asked him if he knew a speedy route back into Belgium and on to Brussels.  Jacky said "Sure - just follow me"...  

 

Now Geoff was a rapid, enterprising and fearless road driver in his own right.  But he confessed later that he sweated absolute buckets just to keep Ickx in sight as they ripped along, cross-country "...on all kinds of little lanes I'd never even have imagined using"...including a long stretch, I believe, across a NATO artillery range.  Jacky even stopped a couple of times to enable his pursuer to catch up.  

 

So Reims to the 'Ring next day for Ickx - a piece of cake...

 

DCN



#12 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 12:35

That would be because the pictures, and therefore their captions, are often added as the last process - I can cite the second edition of a book on my favoured make where some captions make no sense as, although the typist knew he/she could not read the author's handwriting, the commonsense to ask was lacking and nonsense was published. e.g. the name Ayscough became Syscoden. . .


I agree with Allen. Although I gave a full list of captions with the layout, it's one thing to be on the PC or in my head and quite another when putting the design together, especially if the designer, as is often the case, not a motorsport fan. I caught most of the caption errors in my book in the drafts, but a few inevitably still made their way through.

#13 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 12:47

Doug's anecdote reminds me of the only time I've ever actually come close to Jacky. I have only heard very good things about Jacky Ickx but my most definitive memory of him is a face of absolute thunder after my Dad - who always thought he was a better driver than he actually is - cut up Jacky on the M25 near Heathrow Airport around 1990.
I can only imagine the steely glare he gave as he then later passed our little FSO in his ICKX number plated car was reserved for only the most miscreant and cumbersome back markers he encountered whilst racing.
My schoolboy enthusiasm to see a racing hero alongside us was quickly tempered.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 23 May 2020 - 12:47.


#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 12:35

I can't imagine an FSO having the grunt to cut up anything!



#15 sstiel

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 15:21

Something has been confusing me for a while and I wonder if the combined wisdom of this forum can resolve it? On July 3rd 1966, Jacky Ickx competed in the F2 race at Reims (where his Matra failed to finish) but other respected sources show that he also competed in the Nurburgring 6-Hours Touring Car race on the same day (where the Lotus Cortina he allegedly shared with Paul Hawkins retired with wheel-bearing failure). Interestingly, I have seen photographs showing Jacky at Reims but none showing him at the Nurburgring. My guess is that he was originally scheduled to participate in the German race, but did not do so, that his place was taken by another driver (who?) and the official entry and results statistics were never amended; but I have no evidence to support this theory. Can anyone cast any light on the truth of the matter?

Is this another project in the making Jon? Monsieur Ickx's competition history?   ;)



#16 chr1s

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 21:14

Doug's anecdote reminds me of the only time I've ever actually come close to Jacky. I have only heard very good things about Jacky Ickx but my most definitive memory of him is a face of absolute thunder after my Dad - who always thought he was a better driver than he actually is - cut up Jacky on the M25 near Heathrow Airport around 1990.
I can only imagine the steely glare he gave as he then later passed our little FSO in his ICKX number plated car was reserved for only the most miscreant and cumbersome back markers he encountered whilst racing.
My schoolboy enthusiasm to see a racing hero alongside us was quickly tempered.

Was that a UK registration number? I used to see that number occasionally in the 90s on a white 850 BMW and I used to say to myself "no it can't be him" but maybe it was?



#17 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 08:48

Was that a UK registration number? I used to see that number occasionally in the 90s on a white 850 BMW and I used to say to myself "no it can't be him" but maybe it was?

Jacky glared long enough for me to positively identify him!
I can't recall if he was in a white BMW, I seem to recall it mightve been a different car. That's a bad TNFer for not noting it down at the time for crucial confirmation 30 years on!

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 25 May 2020 - 09:43.


#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 09:30

Nothing short of a chassis number will do as a confirmation for us, you know...

 

Shall we have him stand in a corner with a tinfoil cap, what say you?



#19 Myhinpaa

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 09:47

I can't imagine an FSO having the grunt to cut up anything!

 

John Lyons at Sartfield Hairpin '80 Manx Rally : https://youtu.be/6T1mkj9uiqw?t=318



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#20 BRG

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 10:52

Was that a UK registration number? I used to see that number occasionally in the 90s on a white 850 BMW and I used to say to myself "no it can't be him" but maybe it was?

I wondered about this too.  Was Ickx a UK resident at any time?  Why else would he have a British registered car, especially with a personalised number? 

 

Or was it a Belgian plate - it was/is possible to get personalised numbers in Belgium as well, and back then, a Belgian plate was not so different in appearance to a UK one.

 

John Lyons at Sartfield Hairpin '80 Manx Rally : https://youtu.be/6T1mkj9uiqw?t=318

Now I have seen a lot of footage of that hairpin over the years, but I have never seen anyone take that route!  Judging from their reaction, nor had the Manx marshals!



#21 Parkesi

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 14:23

To stretch the issue: "Two podium places at once"?

e.g. Daytona Beach 24h 1970

1. Rodriguez, Kinnunen, Brian Redman / Porsche 917K / J.W.Engineering / 724 laps

2. Siffert, Brian Redman / Porsche 917K / J.W.Engineering / 679 laps



#22 glyn parham

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 17:28

John Lyons at Sartfield Hairpin '80 Manx Rally : https:it//youtu.be/6T1mkj9uiqw?t=318


The last time I saw him in the FSO he was bouncing it off several very large trees in Bramham Park on that years RAC!
Glyn

Edited by glyn parham, 25 May 2020 - 17:30.


#23 Myhinpaa

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 18:14

The last time I saw him in the FSO he was bouncing it off several very large trees in Bramham Park on that years RAC!
Glyn

 

That was SS8 that year, he swerved to avoid two spectators running across the track only to hit three others, in addition to the trees...



#24 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 19:59

Tom Walkinshaw competed in 2 races at the same time, on different circuits, winning both.

1976....Silverstone 6 Hours, he did the 1st stint then handed over to John Fitzpatrick, who eventually took the chequered flag.

Tom flew to Thruxton for the BSCC race, winning that in his Capri.... :drunk:


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 25 May 2020 - 22:29.


#25 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 21:13

To stretch the issue: "Two podium places at once"?

e.g. Daytona Beach 24h 1970

1. Rodriguez, Kinnunen, Brian Redman / Porsche 917K / J.W.Engineering / 724 laps

2. Siffert, Brian Redman / Porsche 917K / J.W.Engineering / 679 laps

Boris Ivanowski finished first and third in the 1929 Irish International GP. Driving solo.



#26 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 01:38

More instances in these earlier threads:

Drivers who classified more than once in a single race

’Ghost’ drivers

First & Second - Same Guy

#27 Stephen W

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:11

I seem to remember a mustard coloured MG Midget/Austin Healey Sprite with the registration number J 1 CKX that I often saw heading to or from Silverstone on the road past Stowe School.



#28 BRG

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 10:56

I seem to remember a mustard coloured MG Midget/Austin Healey Sprite with the registration number J 1 CKX that I often saw heading to or from Silverstone on the road past Stowe School.

That registration is now on a 2014 Renault with a 900cc engine (Clio, presumably).  Not overly sporty, but maybe the owner has grown out of sports cars!

 

No trace of a UK reg 1CKX though.  It would be a very valuable commodity nowadays, so I guess it lapsed a long time back.  Unlikely to have been on Jacky's car.  So I go with my Belgian plate hypothesis. (post #20)



#29 ron54

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 12:54

That registration is now on a 2014 Renault with a 900cc engine (Clio, presumably).  Not overly sporty, but maybe the owner has grown out of sports cars!

 

No trace of a UK reg 1CKX though.  It would be a very valuable commodity nowadays, so I guess it lapsed a long time back.  Unlikely to have been on Jacky's car.  So I go with my Belgian plate hypothesis. (post #20)

It may have been 10 KX  with a fixing screw in the appropriate position..I can't imagine J.I doing such a thing but the reg  was issued and apparently still exists.......



#30 BRG

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 13:23

It may have been 10 KX  with a fixing screw in the appropriate position..I can't imagine J.I doing such a thing but the reg  was issued and apparently still exists.......

Surely nobody would do something so vile as to place a screw in such a way as to corrupt their registration plate?

 

10KX is on a 2015 diesel Landrover.  Number plate worth far more than vehicle!  It beats me why people bother with such things - the most desirable plates can go for many tens of thousands of pounds.  I'd rather spend that money on the vehicle rather than a number plate.



#31 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 13:32

Thanks Michael - I was about to remove the post as I have just found that out from Jenks' contemporary report. Odd that the usually precise reference sites have that one wrong!

I hope all is good with you and yours, and that you are all covid-free.


Good thing you didn't delete the thread, Jon, as this is - even by TNF standards - a masterpiece in thread drift: multiple finishes by the same driver, wrong photo captions, road rage by GP drivers, UK and Belgian registration plates, rallying in the Isle of Man, screwing up number plates and so forth... er, what was the OP's question, again?

Who needs Drifting when you can have TNF ® Thread Drift! :D

#32 BRG

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 16:35

And all in only 32 posts!  Another TNF winner!



#33 PhantomRaspberryBlower

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 17:19

Tom Walkinshaw competed in 2 races at the same time, on different circuits, winning both.

1976....Silverstone 6 Hours, he did the 1st stint then handed over to John Fitzpatrick, who eventually took the chequered flag.

Tom flew to Thruxton for the BSCC race, winning that in his Capri.... :drunk:

 

Did he then fly back for the podium at Silverstone?



#34 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 27 May 2020 - 10:27

Don't think so...I saw a mention somewhere that said John Fitzpatrick was on his own on the top step, but I'll need to search for that again just to be sure. It'll be online somewhere...

Thinking about it, would he have wanted to rush back?   He'd done his work for the day...driving in both races, had the flight to Thruxton and being on the podium there, he'd probably have been unwinding not wanting to rush back just to stand on the Silverstone podium..  

 

Edit - Pure coincidence, have received the latest Motor Sport mag this am, there is a feature on Tom in it. Mentions the Silverstone race...Tom drove for an hour in the middle of the race then flew to Thruxton. John managed to win by just over 1 second but there was no way of letting Tom know, so John was on the podium top step by himself.


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 28 May 2020 - 10:04.


#35 Jahn1234567890

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Posted 27 May 2020 - 11:26

Hans Herrmann finished first with Bonnier and third with Gendebien in the 1960 Targa Florio. Since Herrmann was known to be somewhat of an Targa Florio expert Porsche asked him if he was able to driver two cars at the 1960 event.

 

Herrmann: "In 1960 I won Sebring and the Targa Florio. Track knowledge counted for the Targa. We trained them for weeks. Over the years I became a real Targa expert. Once Porsche asked me if I could drive two cars. I was in good condition. I drove continuously in this race. First the Bonnier car, then the Gendebien car. In between, I might have to wait half a lap for the other car to come to the pit stop. I won with one car and finished third in the other. A poster was printed there, where the result was printed. And I led in two cars."

 

I always thought this was a very impressive achievement to drive pretty much non-stop for more than 7 hours at the Targa.


Edited by Jahn1234567890, 27 May 2020 - 11:32.


#36 pete53

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Posted 27 May 2020 - 13:44

I remember in 1966 Bernard Unett practicing and racing on the same day at Brands Hatch (Hillman Imp) and Snetterton (Sunbeam Tiger) thanks to the miracle of flight. He was in contention for the Autosport Championship, the final of which was at Snetterton that day, and the Westover Saloon Championship at Brands. He won at Brands but finished 2nd in class at Snetterton and saw John Miles take the title.



#37 JacnGille

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 15:35

Nothing short of a chassis number will do as a confirmation for us, you know...

 

He coulda bought it on Ebay and riveted to any old chassis!   :cool:



#38 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 16:08

Who on earth would do such a naughty thing! :eek:



#39 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 19:13

Hans Herrmann finished first with Bonnier and third with Gendebien in the 1960 Targa Florio. Since Herrmann was known to be somewhat of an Targa Florio expert Porsche asked him if he was able to driver two cars at the 1960 event.

 

Herrmann: "In 1960 I won Sebring and the Targa Florio. Track knowledge counted for the Targa. We trained them for weeks. Over the years I became a real Targa expert. Once Porsche asked me if I could drive two cars. I was in good condition. I drove continuously in this race. First the Bonnier car, then the Gendebien car. In between, I might have to wait half a lap for the other car to come to the pit stop. I won with one car and finished third in the other. A poster was printed there, where the result was printed. And I led in two cars."

 

I always thought this was a very impressive achievement to drive pretty much non-stop for more than 7 hours at the Targa.

Just as long as he did not try to pass himself.



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#40 D-Type

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 21:51

Another one-off is Jim Clark in the non-championship 1962 Mexican GP.  He stalled on the grid and was push started and was therefore disqualified (or rather, the car was).  He took over his team mate Trevor Taylor's car and went on to win.
So the record bnook shows him both disqualified and winning.



#41 BRG

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 16:31

That's bizarre.  The driver makes a mistake by stalling, but it is the car that gets punished? 

 

Grand Prix racing was a different world back then.  The 1955 Argentinian GP would make modern F1 fans have a nervous breakdown and would melt the internet.  2nd, 3rd , 4th and 7th places each shared by three drivers, with two of them (Farina and Trintignant) both finishing in 2nd and 3rd places.  The WC points allocation was a masterpiece of Byzantine logic.  Fortunately, Fangio was there to take a straightforward unassisted home win.