148 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Cough - splutter!

 

I have just read that Daniel Abt - a 'racing driver' involved in what I regard as the weirdly uninteresting Formula E series, presently in abeyance, has just been caught cheating by using a professional internet gamer as his proxy to 'drive' in the substitute Race at Home eSports Challenge.

 

So here we have a (real) sparky-racing professional driver disqualified (for real) from (a pretend) racing series for (pretending) to have been participating whereas he had (really) hired a third party to (really) press the buttons (or twiddle the joy stick  - or whatever they have to do) in order to pretend that he was driving a real sparky car in a real (though in fact pretend) race...

 

Apparently the fine - and supposedly the shame of being caught - are entirely real.

 

Forgive me - but suddenly this makes the TNF world right here, and in our heads, seem all the more real.

 

Or have I just imagined the whole thing?  Ahem - if so, could someone please summon help...?

 

DCN

[noikeee]

Yes, this is a thing that happened, and I'm glad it did, because it's by far one of the funniest things to happen in motorsport in these weird recent times.

[D-Type]

I'm confused    .  Should I be annoyed    or amused  ?

[Vitesse2]

Possibly annoyed, Duncan. There may perhaps be more to this than meets the eye. There are betting markets on these esport races and - given that Abt hadn't apparently shown any previous serious form - he was probably quite long odds before the start. So, with precious few nags around to nobble and no cricket to fix someone might just have made a killing ... I wouldn't be surprised to find that the bookies are looking long and hard at this and checking betting patterns. It's not a big market, but in the absence of much traditional sport several of the online bookmakers are promoting esports heavily.

 

https://www.theguard...a-e-esport-race

[FLB]

On Endurance-Info (a serious source on GT and sportscars), there was an article on the whole sim racing thing. At least one (unnamed) team principal in France lamented the fact he got more 'effect' (retombées) out of sim racing than from the real thing and that worries him:

 

https://www.enduranc...-le-sim-racing/ (en francais)

[10kDA]

Never bet on anything with less than four legs.

[Tom Glowacki]

I'm confused    .  Should I be annoyed    or amused  ?

No, you should be shocked.  Get it, Formula E?  Never mind.

[Ray Bell]

I also heard this on the news this morning...

 

I didn't get the whole story, but now I'm better eddycated.

 

It makes a laugh of the whole thing, but the betting side of it is definitely a worry.

[HP]

Cheating has always been a thing in racing, but the e-World has made things worse than ever.

 

Besides the fine for Abt, what implications has this in the FE universe? Abt is still representing Audi in the virtual races.

[arttidesco]

Cheating and gambling on vitual Formula E, now that is what I call electrifying nostalgia, must have gotten up way too early    

 

I'll try starting the day again.... a little later 

[Jack-the-Lad]

I think a NASCAR driver was fined for rough driving in a sim race. Seriously.

But I’ll give NASCAR this much: They’re out there racing for real again.

[john aston]

Good to see Mr Nye is so in touch with the zeitgeist . Can't say SIM racing is my thing but I guess it is the only show in town for many . As for Formula E , I don't have a problem with a series that is in such rude health that it's got more manufacturers involved than F1 . Sure , they don't sound like a DFV or a Chevy V8 but so what ? The sport is , or at least should be,  a broad church  and  many modern racing cars sound bloody awful - been to BTCC recently? Dyspeptic pops and bangs  aren't music to my ears .  

[Glengavel]

Never bet on anything with less than four legs.

 

Five legs I should think...

[Mallory Dan]

If the bookies are daft enough to take the bet, its their issue. 

[BRG]

I worry that some people are taking sim racing far too seriously.  Perhaps that is a feature of the modern world in which I am no longer in tune, but too me simulations are not real.  Now I have enjoyed playing the occasional arcade racing game in the past - Sega Rally, Daytona, Ferrari 355 were all a bit of fun - and I know that technology has come on immensely since those and modern sims are almost indistinguishable from the real thing.  But they still aren't real.  There is none of the sensation of really driving.  Sims are useful for training - be it pilots or racing drivers - but there is no substitute for real flying or driving.  As a stop-gap whilst we are all cowering in our homes, I get it, but when people start handing out large fines (under what legal structure I wonder?), it is getting a bit silly.

 

Abt isn't the first - a driver in the US lost his sponsor  and potentially his seat over a sim racing spat.  As I said, people are taking a game far too seriously'

 

Having said that, I enjoyed seeing Alonso win sim-Indy by a whisker from Jenson Button, with an 80 yo Mario Andretti hot on their heels (although a lap down due to some early race issue).  Now I want to see the real thing, although I doubt if Mario will oblige in that!

Edited by BRG, 25 May 2020 - 11:20.

[10kDA]

Five legs I should think...

Oh, I don't know. The dish-lickers have been kind to me, while the nags have not.

[KWSN - DSM]

If you do not take a game seriously,. it is no longer a game.

 

Pagenoud and Abt have p.... on fans and fellow drivers through their antics, it is only pretend and virtual, which does not mean their fellow drivers do not take it seriously, and does not mean those watching do not take it seriously, it is disgraceful behaviour, which should in my world cost them in the real world as well... if Larson was ummasked so have Pagenoud and Abt been, Larson as someone using foul language, they as poor competitors with a me-only atttitude.

 

[jcbc3]

I am also of the old fashioned school that doesn't 'get' sim racing. 

 

But I respect that many racers because of lack of the real thing has now started trying their hand on it. I was galled when Simon Pagenaud took out Llando Norris. Darren Cox explained it the best:

 

 

“These guys aren’t doing it for fun.

 

“Pagenaud was there representing Penske, his sponsors, the series. And therefore he has to behave like a professional. You can say ‘It’s just a game’ but it ain’t.

“If it was just a game, they’d be on Mario Kart and wouldn’t have their sponsor’s name down the side [of the car] and wouldn’t train to give their sponsors coverage and exposure on a big TV channel in the U.S.”

 

What you have to realize when you get petulant is that some of your colleagues has been spending a long time training for this. And then one a-hole decide that all this effort should be for nothing because it's just a game. If that had happened chez jcbc3 when I was a kid playing a board game, there would also have been consequences!

[jcbc3]

And for those who know (or don't), KWSN and I shared the jcbc3 household as kids. And made these posts completely independently of each other.

[Doug Nye]

  Oh dear.

 

Whatever have I started?

 

DCN

[jcbc3]

A very important discussion about sportmanship?

[PCC]

...I know that technology has come on immensely since those and modern sims are almost indistinguishable from the real thing.  But they still aren't real.  There is none of the sensation of really driving.

I was recently chatting with a young person who made several references to her 'boyfriend'. Nothing unusual in that, but as we talked it gradually became clear that this 'boyfriend' lived in another city in another country, and they had never met in person. It made me realize that my notion of "real" was different from hers, and I couldn't bridge the yawning gulf.

[dwh43scale]

Never bet on anything with less than four legs.

 

Well, in the case of Abt, you were betting on four legs. Just that two of them weren't working the pedals !

[Roger Clark]

I watched one of these e-sim races and was amazed how realistic it looked. That shows how artificial motor sport has become. 

[Risil]

This is an absolutely joyous non-scandal and a welcome relief from the rest of the world.

[Sterzo]

I watched one of these e-sim races and was amazed how realistic it looked. That shows how artificial motor sport has become. 

A sim racer let me watch over his shoulder as he drove round various classic racing circuits of the world. A fantastic way to see Clermont Ferrand, Philip Island, Monza, et al from the driving seat.

[sabrejet]

Never bet on anything with less than four legs.

 

*fewer*

[Rob G]

I think a NASCAR driver was fined for rough driving in a sim race. Seriously.

 

Bubba Wallace lost a sponsor for rage-quitting a race, and Kyle Larson lost his NASCAR ride and was fined for using a racial slur. At least a couple other drivers were disqualified for rough driving, but those DQs were handed out by iRacing, not NASCAR.

[68targa]

Virtual cheating ?  Struth I've heard it all.

 

What's wrong with real cheating ?  Nascar used to do it very well - something about filling tyres with water to add weight at scrutineering I think. And building a 9/10th size body shape.  And of course Tyrrell in 1984 filling fuel tanks with lead shot or similar for weight reasons.

 

The old ones are the best.

[Odseybod]

I'm sure that plans were afoot last year for a subset of Formula E using driverless cars, to be introduced in a few years' time (should please Elfin Safety)..

 

So, if that comes to pass, someone will no doubt produce a sim version of it - and then will the real-world version try to poach the programmers from the sim version, or vice versa?

 

Nurse, I feel one of my headaches coming on again ...

[Doug Nye]

I am also reminded of an owner/driver of the early 1970s who appeared occasionally in a Lola T70GT and then the March 717.  I believe his name was Stefan Sklenar.  He was described to me at the time as being "a bit of a weirdoh".  "Why?" seemed a reasonable question.

 

"Because he claims to have once won a Grand Prix disguised as Jack Brabham..."  

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

The sad thing, Doug, is that this got a greater response than your revelation about Smokey Yunick...

[Catalina Park]

I was playing chess with a friend and he said "Let's make this interesting". so we stopped.

[Nemo1965]

The thing I am wondering about: has it ever happened that someone pulled this off in the real world? For bragging points, a racing license, a qualification for a race? Say, it is the Monaco Grand Prix 1983. Only twenty cars allowed. Driver X is 21st. He asks driver A. (who happens to be there, without a drive) to qualify his car, wearing his helmet and nomex?

[john aston]

I had always assumed that , after qualifying in the 1981 Las Vegas Grand Prix (an oxymoron surely ?),  Carlos Reutemann had fallen  victim to dancing girls and was in such an exhausted state that Frank  Williams had recruited  Dwayne from the valet parking team at the hotel to take Carlos'  place in the race ?

[Bloggsworth]

Virtual cheating ?  Struth I've heard it all.

 

What's wrong with real cheating ?  Nascar used to do it very well - something about filling tyres with water to add weight at scrutineering I think. And building a 9/10th size body shape.  And of course Tyrrell in 1984 filling fuel tanks with lead shot or similar for weight reasons.

 

The old ones are the best.

And they're so pleased with themselves: https://youtu.be/hfq7-1ePW-M

[Nemo1965]

I would like to add that in chess, it has happened several times during official tournament play that a grandmaster was caught cheating by doing the same thing that Abt has done. Letting someone else do the chess playing (by mobile phone, now prohibited to have with you during tournament play), using a chess computer, or going to the bathroom and looking up on the internet what the next move should be...

 

It is the same, basically... And take the, now totally normal, habit of an engineer showing the driver where his teammate wins that extra tenth here and there. Isn't that virtual cheating also, in a sense?

[Stephen W]

It is very funny but there again I don't give a stuff about virtual races just as I don't care about Formula E.

 

As for Post #20 I believe the person posting knew exactly what the reaction would be and is probably sat chuckling in his den.

 

 

[jcbc3]

That's the definition of an internet troll. Not becoming of a respected journalist.

 

 

So, let's conclude that can't possibly the case.

 

 

 

(this is not my own original thought, but I can't name the source here)

[2F-001]

The thing I am wondering about: has it ever happened that someone pulled this off in the real world? For bragging points, a racing license, a qualification for a race? Say, it is the Monaco Grand Prix 1983. Only twenty cars allowed. Driver X is 21st. He asks driver A. (who happens to be there, without a drive) to qualify his car, wearing his helmet and nomex?

And why not a driver who happens to be there *with* a drive - for example, a quicker teammate?

 

Call me a cynic, but I'd find it harder to believe that such a thing has NOT happened...

Edited by 2F-001, 26 May 2020 - 10:19.

[Roger Clark]

And why not a driver who happens to be there *with* a drive - for example, a quicker teammate?

 

It used to happen fairly frequently and quite legitimately.. For example, Colin Chapman had a one-ff Vandal drive in the 1956 French Grand Prix.  The best practice lap for his car was set by Harry Schell, carrying Chapman's number.  In the event, Chapman damaged his car and didn't start but there was a gap on the grid where he would have been with Schell's time.

Edited by Roger Clark, 26 May 2020 - 11:15.

[2F-001]

Was that really legitimate? I could understand if the practice time was deemed to relate to the car rather than the driver; but if swapping numbers was allowed, that would mean that the time related to the number itself, irrespective of car or driver. Or have I misunderstood something?

[arttidesco]

Then there is the Ed Hungus myth ;-)

[Arjan de Roos]

Brings back that black foggy morning 55 years ago in France, when I passed a deserted pits and I heard: "Where is Jochen? Where is Jochen?"

[68targa]

Drivers impersonating another must have happened at Le Mans quite often.

 

There is the story of Jean Behra impersonating Maurice Trintignant at the 1951 Italian GP. Trintignant qualified his Gordini but fell ill and in order to get the start money Jean Behra used Tringnant's helmet for the race. Most results show Trintignant retiring from the race although Motor Sport shows Behra's name as well.  All good stuff and these drivers were doing it for real.

[10kDA]

Brings back that black foggy morning 55 years ago in France, when I passed a deserted pits and I heard: "Where is Jochen? Where is Jochen?"

That's easy. Driving some other car, wearing a Jack Brabham disguise.

[BRG]

Helmet swaps might have been quite common.  I was at a Silverstone tyre testing session in the McLaren-Honda days (the successful ones, that is) when they were trying a V12.  Allan McNish was the test driver and was supposed to be doing all the driving.  However Senna, who was there as well, apparently wanted to try it, but not be seen to try it, for some reason., so went out using Allan McNish's helmet.  Or so it was claimed. 

 

Would it have been 1989 - I also remember the Yamaha powered Zakspeed blowing engines with gay abandon.  The team changed a blown engine, fired up the new one which lasted about a minute before it grenaded, still in the pits

[Ray Bell]

Bill Brown qualified for Paul Hawkins once...

[Arjan de Roos]

Then there is the Ed Hugus myth ;-)

2 minutes earlier...

[HP]

So they suspended him from Audi.

 

https://www.autospor...isqualification

 

There is sportsmanship left in the current racing world.