148 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

The only complaint I have about Formula E is that it is too much like modern Formula One to excite me. I don't need the noise, or the smell of an internal combustion engine, but what I need is cars moving about under power, getting twitchy under braking and unstable during cornering. Yes, it's progress that makes the cars so very balanced these days, but (for me) it killed the attraction.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 May 2020 - 10:01.

[Nigel Beresford]

Blimey Michael, moving around under power, getting twitchy under braking and unstable during cornering is precisely what FE cars do, and it is a huge part of the reason why some really capable drivers from other categories struggle to adapt. 

 

I am not an evangelist or apologist for FE. It has its faults and of course it doesn't provide the visceral thrill that other Formulae used to, but sadly Ronnie and the 72 and Woodcote are gone and we have what we have today, however it is powered. Like I say, under the surface it's the same as ever. There are blimmin' loads of categories for us all to pick from, mercifully.

[BRG]

 

The only thing I refuse to contemplate is virtual biscuits.

You know there are cookies on your computer.....

 

For a (hollow) laugh,look at p30 of the new Motor Sport.  Allan McNish's article about Formula E and esports is illustrated with a lovely little picture of the reprobate Daniel Abt, seated at his sim racing wheel, and beaming at the camera.

 

No wonder they sacked him - McNish must be steaming about being made a fool of.

[Michael Ferner]

Blimey Michael, moving around under power, getting twitchy under braking and unstable during cornering is precisely what FE cars do, and it is a huge part of the reason why some really capable drivers from other categories struggle to adapt. 
 
I am not an evangelist or apologist for FE. It has its faults and of course it doesn't provide the visceral thrill that other Formulae used to, but sadly Ronnie and the 72 and Woodcote are gone and we have what we have today, however it is powered. Like I say, under the surface it's the same as ever. There are blimmin' loads of categories for us all to pick from, mercifully.

To my eternal shame, I must confess that I tried the product Formula E only once so far, a couple or so years ago. What put me off most, then, was the sight of the cars, one by one, pulling off into the pits, where the drivers nonchalantly got out and entered an identical looking twin of the car they had just retired (out of "steam", so to speak, or merely "exhausted"?) and drove off again, to resume the race (or should I say "race"?). Hmmmm.

[10kDA]

To my eternal shame, I must confess that I tried the product Formula E only once so far, a couple or so years ago. What put me off most, then, was the sight of the cars, one by one, pulling off into the pits, where the drivers nonchalantly got out and entered an identical looking twin of the car they had just retired (out of "steam", so to speak, or merely "exhausted"?) and drove off again, to resume the race (or should I say "race"?). Hmmmm.

I don't think they do the 2-car thing any more. When they did, it seemed to me that it would be much more interesting if the course had to be run in the opposite direction after switching to the charged-up car. Meaning into opposing traffic until everybody had switched. Hmmm... maybe this could be a feature in the riskless world of Sim.

[Nigel Beresford]

As i say, I am not here to praise or promote Formula E. The days of car changes are long gone (and they were never ever remotely pedestrian - that's just lazy misinformation). The cars are far nicer and faster and better now. Sure, there's a long way to go, but that's the really good thing - there is no established template to follow. It's a bit like when we started making bits out of carbon. Everyone knew how to make a wing out of aluminium, but there were loads of ways to do it in carbon, so you had a lot of fun trying them all out.

 

I don't personally like the "Fan Boost" thing - there is too much potential for abuse and it is far too convenient a peg for critics to hang their comments on to. Everyone is entitled to develop their own tastes and have their own opinion. You can't force anyone to like something - it's a matter of personal discovery. Some people think oval racing is easy because it's just driving in circles, innit? That's the problem sometimes - really good people doing very difficult things make it look easy...

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 May 2020 - 13:10.

[ozpata]

I have always viewed simulators as a learning tool, but they also provide entertainment 

too me there was always good potential to show people about the history of the sport, you can create tracks long gone and cars, yes there is a lot of user created stuff that probably creates more confusion than anything, but if you take something like grand prix legends, it has well over 500 tracks, gives the possibility of driving on tracks created to resemble things as they were in their time, and you can drive 1955, 65, 66, 67 and 69 f1 cars with a few other sport cars and Can Am from the period, the people that keep adding tracks and cars, try their best on doing research to get them as close and accurate as possible, it might not be up to the standards of visual of the newer titles but I think is one if not the only title that can give you a chance to drive in lots of tracks mainly from the 60s and earlier   

 

it might not be perfect and has some mistakes but will give you that possibility of going back in time, if you want to race with friends you can do that, or if you only wanna drive around, just to get an idea on how some of those tracks were, I think it does help 

 

now the newer generation of simulators that have been around in the last few years, do a remarkable job not only on the visuals but weather, wind and track surface bumps and so on, but as anything it has some limitations,  their product has to be able to work within a certain bracket of pc to be able to get to more people, when probably a team can go to great lengths  to get a motion platform, a few highly modified computers in which they can divide their job so they can cover their needs better, there are probably solutions for every team level 

 

at the consumer market level, racing simulators are like some aviation simulators were and are, it depends on how much money you want to spend on making your racing environment as real as possible, there are a lot of products readily available from racing cockpits, seats, wheels, pedals with loading cells and so on, and then some people choose to modify those or create new ones, so it depends, you can be ready to race with a few hundred buying a wheel and pedals or you can spend as much as you want, if that makes you happy or is the thing that you want to do 

[10kDA]

I have always viewed simulators as a learning tool, but they also provide entertainment 

too me there was always good potential to show people about the history of the sport, you can create tracks long gone and cars, yes there is a lot of user created stuff that probably creates more confusion than anything, but if you take something like grand prix legends, it has well over 500 tracks, gives the possibility of driving on tracks created to resemble things as they were in their time, and you can drive 1955, 65, 66, 67 and 69 f1 cars with a few other sport cars and Can Am from the period, the people that keep adding tracks and cars, try their best on doing research to get them as close and accurate as possible, it might not be up to the standards of visual of the newer titles but I think is one if not the only title that can give you a chance to drive in lots of tracks mainly from the 60s and earlier   

 

it might not be perfect and has some mistakes but will give you that possibility of going back in time, if you want to race with friends you can do that, or if you only wanna drive around, just to get an idea on how some of those tracks were, I think it does help 

 

now the newer generation of simulators that have been around in the last few years, do a remarkable job not only on the visuals but weather, wind and track surface bumps and so on, but as anything it has some limitations,  their product has to be able to work within a certain bracket of pc to be able to get to more people, when probably a team can go to great lengths  to get a motion platform, a few highly modified computers in which they can divide their job so they can cover their needs better, there are probably solutions for every team level 

 

at the consumer market level, racing simulators are like some aviation simulators were and are, it depends on how much money you want to spend on making your racing environment as real as possible, there are a lot of products readily available from racing cockpits, seats, wheels, pedals with loading cells and so on, and then some people choose to modify those or create new ones, so it depends, you can be ready to race with a few hundred buying a wheel and pedals or you can spend as much as you want, if that makes you happy or is the thing that you want to do 

I agree, it's great to drive a virtual version of a car or track which no longer exists, or to fly an unobtainable aircraft from the past. I use a virtual soaring sim called Condor. At a consumer level, gaming and competition is entertaining and fun. Sims are useful to build skill level. I can't see any attraction in being a spectator for a virtual game, nor can I understand paid professionalism amongst virtual gamers. An industry has been established around professional gaming and I don't have to participate as a consumer if I have no interest, nor do I have to care about sportsmanship, lack of, or other antics by those involved. From one step away, the importance and seriousness of that industry and its participants (in this case Audi et al) is unintentionally funny and they don't know it. Nor do they care about my opinion.

[Sterzo]

I have always viewed simulators as a learning tool, but they also provide entertainment 

too me there was always good potential to show people about the history of the sport...  if you take something like grand prix legends, it has well over 500 tracks, gives the possibility of driving on tracks created to resemble things as they were in their time...

I mentioned in an earlier post being shown round some circuits by an accomplished sim racer. That was Grand Prix Legends. Sudschleife, Clermont Ferrand, Spa... a great way to see them, and as you mention, the research and effort put into creating them is phenomenal.

[john aston]

The FE series , if nothing else , has polarised opinion among enthusiasts of all ages. I wouldn't lightly dismiss any series which has high profile races across  the globe , world standard drivers , striking looking cars and , count' em , nine manufacturers and 24 car grids . 

 

What I find fascinating is the many and varied objections, dislikes and visceral loathing of FE from both young and old(er) enthusiasts . Here's my take on that -

 

- the key objection  is lack of noise , supplemented by a litany of peripheral reasons , few , if any of which stand up to scrutiny 

 

- so , what about noise then , is it so important? As  a TV sport (which it is for 99% of the audience ) it is pretty irrelevant,as even a DFV sounds house-trained on telly. To me , the  sport is ideally a live experience , so could I cope with FE ? I don't see why not - nobody is more thrilled than me by the wail of a  Ferrari V12 , the bellow of a Chevy Big Block or the bark of an FVA but,  if you haven't noticed,  not only are most cars silenced now , most modern race cars are turbocharged and many of them just make an anodyne , chesty blare. with  pops and bang on the overrun.   In '97 I had an eardrum perforated by a Mugen V10 and I've lost  a lot of hearing due to my addiction to angry racers at close range and whilst it's all my own fault for not wearing hearing protection I don't honestly think that that is a risk a newcomer to live racing should be expected to bear in 2020

 

- speed ? Well , we all enjoy racers that lap far slower than a FE car -from FF1600 to Mustangs and Formula Junior , let alone our sacred cows like Type 35 Bugattis and ERAs so is speed really that important ? I;d argue it actually isn't that crucial at all - what counts is the car's body language, and FE cars move around far more than most modern single seaters

 

- closeness of competition? An FE race can feature more overtaking than half a season's worth  of 80s F3 ..

 

- range /battery life. They used to swap cars - so what ? It was only a refresh of energy , albeit in a different  way to sloshing in 25 gallons of gas into a BT 50 ...

 

- circuits? We love Monaco , Macau and some even like Baku (nice circuit , shame about the country )  so why not a city race?

 

- fan boost ? My inner purist objects , as it does to handicaps , BoP etc , but if it gets young people engaged , it's a good thing isn't it ? I don't want  only to encounter deaf old dinosaurs like myself at the races

 

All objections seem to me to be symptomatic of a fear of change , in a sport which,  ironically enough , has thrived on it . It is a broad church and I don't accept that approving of FE must mean a dislike of F1 or NASCAR , rallying or historics . FE is just  one page in a big book surely ?        

 

And yes, this is TNF, but today's cutting edge racing is tomorrow's nostalgia, right ?    

Edited by john aston, 29 May 2020 - 09:31.

[Sterzo]

^  One "like" is insufficient for this; I'd give one for each paragraph.

 

And I'd add, it would be possible to go back to any period of history, and write an essay on why motor racing was rubbish at that time.

[Michael Ferner]

I had to google what fanboost actually is. [Vincent vega impersonation] It's an interesting concept... t.b.c. [/leaves for men's room]

[john aston]

PIquet - or rather the M12 behind him -  used to have fan boost  too, from  head fanboy Paul Rosche . And our Nige , Gawd bless 'im  and his paranoia , always claimed his fans gave him a second a lap at Silverstone . It was compensation for the second I awarded anyone driving a red car in the same race (until '89 anyway ) 

[jtremlett]

The FE series , if nothing else , has polarised opinion among enthusiasts of all ages. I wouldn't lightly dismiss any series which has high profile races across  the globe , world standard drivers , striking looking cars and , count' em , nine manufacturers and 24 car grids . 

 

What I find fascinating is the many and varied objections, dislikes and visceral loathing of FE from both young and old(er) enthusiasts . Here's my take on that -

 

- the key objection  is lack of noise , supplemented by a litany of peripheral reasons , few , if any of which stand up to scrutiny 

 

- so , what about noise then , is it so important? As  a TV sport (which it is for 99% of the audience ) it is pretty irrelevant,as even a DFV sounds house-trained on telly. To me , the  sport is ideally a live experience , so could I cope with FE ? I don't see why not - nobody is more thrilled than me by the wail of a  Ferrari V12 , the bellow of a Chevy Big Block or the bark of an FVA but,  if you haven't noticed,  not only are most cars silenced now , most modern race cars are turbocharged and many of them just make an anodyne , chesty blare. with  pops and bang on the overrun.   In '97 I had an eardrum perforated by a Mugen V10 and I've lost  a lot of hearing due to my addiction to angry racers at close range and whilst it's all my own fault for not wearing hearing protection I don't honestly think that that is a risk a newcomer to live racing should be expected to bear in 2020

 

- speed ? Well , we all enjoy racers that lap far slower than a FE car -from FF1600 to Mustangs and Formula Junior , let alone our sacred cows like Type 35 Bugattis and ERAs so is speed really that important ? I;d argue it actually isn't that crucial at all - what counts is the car's body language, and FE cars move around far more than most modern single seaters

 

- closeness of competition? An FE race can feature more overtaking than half a season's worth  of 80s F3 ..

 

- range /battery life. They used to swap cars - so what ? It was only a refresh of energy , albeit in a different  way to sloshing in 25 gallons of gas into a BT 50 ...

 

- circuits? We love Monaco , Macau and some even like Baku (nice circuit , shame about the country )  so why not a city race?

 

- fan boost ? My inner purist objects , as it does to handicaps , BoP etc , but if it gets young people engaged , it's a good thing isn't it ? I don't want  only to encounter deaf old dinosaurs like myself at the races

 

All objections seem to me to be symptomatic of a fear of change , in a sport which,  ironically enough , has thrived on it . It is a broad church and I don't accept that approving of FE must mean a dislike of F1 or NASCAR , rallying or historics . FE is just  one page in a big book surely ?        

 

And yes, this is TNF, but today's cutting edge racing is tomorrow's nostalgia, right ?    

It is hard to argue with any of your points.  But I don't think these things come down to logic.  I don't object to FE but it doesn't excite me (and nor do some other race series) and I would be hard-pressed to say why.  Maybe part of the reason is that I feel like it has been dreamt up as a marketing exercise rather than by racers wanting to go racing.  And that's probably nonsense. 

 

If I'm still around in a few years and all racing is electric I don't know if I will feel different or if I will have no interest in racing at all except as a nostalgic memory.

[Odseybod]

My main objection to FE is that (as I understand it) all teams are required to use the same running gear, batteries and so on. So there's little if any way for racing to improve the breed (as we used to say), and little scope for a present-day Chapman or Murray to display their talents by finding the unfair advantage.

 

The fact that they sound like giant Tamiya radio-control cars doesn't help, either, but I could live with that if the mould-breaker sounded noticably different (I'm think something like the dune racers in Star Wars with a bit of extra whoosh and crackle).

[kayemod]

It is hard to argue with any of your points.  But I don't think these things come down to logic.  I don't object to FE but it doesn't excite me (and nor do some other race series) and I would be hard-pressed to say why.  Maybe part of the reason is that I feel like it has been dreamt up as a marketing exercise rather than by racers wanting to go racing.  And that's probably nonsense. 

 

If I'm still around in a few years and all racing is electric I don't know if I will feel different or if I will have no interest in racing at all except as a nostalgic memory.

 

 

My feelings pretty much exactly, electric racing just doesn't excite or interest me, quite clever admittedly in some respects, but it's just yet another marketing-led spec formula, in many cases a final employment opportunity for cast-off supporting cast drivers from other more established series.

 

I bear electric racing no animosity at all, but it just isn't for me, and I can't see that changing. If people thought more deeply about electric racing's general economic impact, manufacturing, organisational and transportation costs etc, it's difficult to see how it's "greener" or more ecological than other forms of motor sport, of the varieties that most of us discuss on TNF. Ultimately, almost every aspect of FE is almost as reliant on fossil-fuelled energy from old fashioned polluting power stations as for example, old fashioned petrol powered Effwun.

[2F-001]

For single seater racing at least, you have to look some way down the ladder from F1 to find a category that is for anything other than what are, essentially, spec cars - so I'm not sure it's fair to single out FE for that as a criticism. 

[LittleChris]

For me its the circuits that are offputting. Just seem to be a load of concrete blocks that could be re-arranged at will at a single venue somewhere.   

[BRG]

i have no problem with an electrically powered race series. I am unconcerned about the noise or lack of it.  My issues with FE are about their unnecessarily silly Mickey Mouse tracks, and about the gimmicks. 

 

I get the idea of city centre races, although I do not personally agree with it - I think if you put on a good product people will come.  If you can only attract spectators by racing on their door step, then you don't have an attractive product.  But if you are going to use street circuits, then don't clutter them with stupidly tight hairpins and pointless chicanes. And don't have silly gimmicks like the Fan Boost popularity parade, where everyone in Belgium can vote for the lightly talented Vandoorne to get an advantage over the other drivers (not that he has ever managed to make anything of it).

 

Now that the car-change idea has been superseded by conventional race to the end cars, I have no issue with race format, but the cars could be, and need to be, faster.

 

Much is made of all the manufacturer interest and the high standard of drivers, but those are both illusions. The drivers are only there because it is the best payday after F1.  The manufacturers are there for their own marketing purposes and will bale out as soon as they decide those purposes have been fulfilled.   The financial basis of FE remains a mystery to me.  Basically it has been bankrolled by Mr Agag.  It attracts fair but hardly huge crowds at modest ticket prices so the revenue is limited but someone is paying to build and tear down all these city centre tracks.  I don't understand how it adds up, unless cities like Paris and Berlin are paying Ecclestone-style hosting fees.  But there was a race in London and we can be certain that London didn't cough up a multi-million pound fee.  Nor could a small seaside town like Punta del Este in Uruguay.

Edited by BRG, 29 May 2020 - 15:51.

[cpbell]

As i say, I am not here to praise or promote Formula E. The days of car changes are long gone (and they were never ever remotely pedestrian - that's just lazy misinformation). The cars are far nicer and faster and better now. Sure, there's a long way to go, but that's the really good thing - there is no established template to follow. It's a bit like when we started making bits out of carbon. Everyone knew how to make a wing out of aluminium, but there were loads of ways to do it in carbon, so you had a lot of fun trying them all out.

 

I don't personally like the "Fan Boost" thing - there is too much potential for abuse and it is far too convenient a peg for critics to hang their comments on to. Everyone is entitled to develop their own tastes and have their own opinion. You can't force anyone to like something - it's a matter of personal discovery. Some people think oval racing is easy because it's just driving in circles, innit? That's the problem sometimes - really good people doing very difficult things make it look easy...

Personally, as a mere 39 year-old, I like the racing that Formula E produces - what has prevented me from getting into it is the noise; not in terms of the volume, but the high-pitched nature of it, sadly inevitable given the (amazing) technology.

Edited by cpbell, 29 May 2020 - 17:17.

[Ray Bell]

The mickey mouse nature of the city tracks is probably necessitated by the insurance requirements...

 

The perceived danger of cars going faster along longer straights.

[Stephen W]

For me its the circuits that are offputting. Just seem to be a load of concrete blocks that could be re-arranged at will at a single venue somewhere.   

 

I have often thought that they could use the Club Circuit at Aintree then at least they would be using a huge chunk of an old GP track which is more or less flat! The other annoying aspect of the pretend circuits is how narrow they are making overtaking a problem until the latter part of the race.

 

The mickey mouse nature of the city tracks is probably necessitated by the insurance requirements...

 

The perceived danger of cars going faster along longer straights.

 

Several of the venues used have had long straights but the nature of the competition and the sudden drop-off of power has tended to make the drivers coast the last parts of these straights nullifying any spectacle which appears to be the whole idea of electric racing.

[Nigel Beresford]

This thread reminds me of the reason why I generally don’t get involved in subjective matters. So much spouting of untruths, inaccuracies, presumptions and double standards by people who profess or admit to not being interested in or even watch the topic at hand and therefore quite literally don’t know what they’re talking about. But then, that’s the way of the world these days. It’s okay not to like Formula E - or any other form of racing - but there’s no need to justify that by trotting out some daft justification that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 30 May 2020 - 09:14.

[john aston]

I agree ; and now let's consider the accusations of -

 

- spec formulae ;well FF1600, FF2000 , FJ (inter alia ) were all great, despite being virtually spec. Early 70s F1 , which we all love , was nearly Formula Variations on a DFV /Hewland theme, no ? . And two of the best series ever -TVR Tuscans and Pro Cars were pure spec

 

- crappy circuits - well , no shortage of those these days , and F1, F3000 and Indy Cars are no stranger to the concrete block  

 

 - driver quality and manufacturer interest illusory ? How so - it is a fact, and if it's motivated by cash and publicity FE  would only have something in common with every F 1 manufacturer , back to Mercedes and Auto Union (etc ) pre war . Drivers looking for cash ? Just like a long list of series including BTCC , WEC , Indy cars , DTM and most of Japanese racing then  . Or  do we expect only the likes of Tim Birkin to race because only they can afford it?     

 

I can respect anybody's own preferences , but I struggle to accept extraneous factors (few of which  stand up to even  the slightest of scrutiny)  being  used as a pretext for the dislike. 

Edited by john aston, 30 May 2020 - 09:34.

[Nemo1965]

This thread reminds me of the reason why I generally don’t get involved in subjective matters. So much spouting of untruths, inaccuracies, presumptions and double standards by people who profess or admit to not being interested in or even watch the topic at hand and therefore quite literally don’t know what they’re talking about. But then, that’s the way of the world these days. It’s okay not to like Formula E - or any other form of racing - but there’s no need to justify that by trotting out some daft justification that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

I did not post Waldorf and Statler for nothing, Nige...

[Bloggsworth]

When being passed down a straight, some FF cars had a different exhaust note... Spec? Almost.

[BRG]

In any spec series, some are more spec than others.....

[john aston]

True -my chum John , who raced in FF1600 in the 80s , had an explanation for every time he was overtaken -not an entirely unusual event , if truth be told - " That ****ing   b****d is running a bender !" .

[Ray Bell]

And there was the day at Amaroo Park they checked the entire Formula Vee field for direct top gears...

 

The rumour was that the winning cars all had direct top gears, so it was pursued as the cars came in from a race, an easy procedure apparently.

 

The only car which was so fitted belonged to the noisiest back-runner who was complaining that the leaders had them.

[Charlieman]

... but there’s no need to justify that by trotting out some daft justification that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Everything is pretty much a compromise in motorsport. Lots of ideas don't stand up to scrutiny until somebody is determined to make them work. With enough money, of course.

 

I think the Formula E designers (concept rather than detail) created the right body style, enclosing the wheels enough to reduce flying car incidents. It was a compromise between safety, pragmatism and maintaining single seater appearance. It was a necessity because of the tight circuits on which the cars would mostly race, but somehow the concept designers limited their thoughts to a single factor.

 

Like most contemporary racing cars, Formula E racers are big. Improved battery technology will allow smaller chassis, and that would make the racing look better. The cars weigh 880kg, and with racing tyres and downforce, they stick to the track like glue. Smaller cars would have a higher CoG, at least until battery power density improves, and with less grip the cars would be more difficult to drive. Maybe tweak the rules to permit different front and rear wing area according to circuit. 

 

I'm sure that every driver is working hard in those cars, but apart from the last gasp overtaking manoeuvres, racing is pretty uneventful.

[john aston]

Shock fact is that a modern F1 car weighs nearly as much as a 100% electric racer . 

 

" Simplify ,then add lightness " as ACBC said ...     

[Vitesse2]

BBC's tech show 'Click' covers the Abt case in this weekend's edition. It airs at regular intervals on BBC News and (I believe) BBC World. Plus iPlayer of course. And YouTube.

[F1matt]

FE looks to be a well organised series which takes racing to the fans in city centres and has a sensible timetable. If this converts the casual onlooker into a motorsport fan then everyone is a winner. 
 

I wonder how many of us will be around when FE is discussed on here in a historic sense? 

[Doug Nye]

Will it ever be much discussed at all...?

 

DCN

[BRG]

Will it ever be much discussed at all...?

 

DCN

I expect that was what was said about that new-fangled 'Formula One' category in 1948.

[Myhinpaa]

Shock fact is that a modern F1 car weighs nearly as much as a 100% electric racer . 

 

" Simplify ,then add lightness " as ACBC said ...     

 

This is just some calculations I've done hastily, but it will give a rough Idea.

 

A Formula 1 car could possibly have a maximum range of 300 km /(200 miles) on the maximum allowed fuel capacity of 105 kg, and a "recharge" would take about 4-5 seconds...

Formula E car will have a range of about 45km on one charge with batteries weighing 200kg, to have the same range as F1 batteries needed would be 1400kg ++

 

Not sure how long it would take to recharge those with superchargers?? Anything from 3 to 24 hours I guess allowing for necessary cooling and other limiting factors.

 

Similarly deluded people fantasise about "zero emission" passenger planes. A fully loaded A320/737 size passenger plane weighs about 80 ton fuelled up to max range.

The fuel load is approximately 20 tons of that, it will be considerably reduced by the time it lands and by getting lighter as miles goes by it also slightly reduces fuel consumption.

Another factor is that it eases the loads on landing gear and son on, unlike a unicorn battery powered similar size plane which would require a battery pack that weighs 180 tons!

 

Imagine the landing gear required on that monstrosity!? Not that it will ever happen, or get off the ground, literally!!

 

Maybe in the future there will be technology that will allow efficient fuel cells to produce enough electricity to power cars and aeroplanes similarly to the current fossil fuel ones.

Hydrogen seems to be a blind alley as you get as little as 20% of the energy back as it takes to produce it, also it requires lots of power to be stored cool enough not to evaporate

at an alarming rate. Imagine fuelling up your petrol powered car to max, leaving it for a week and finding the tank empty! That's what you allegedly get with Hydrogen.

 

The zeppelin "Hindenburg" was full of Hydrogen too, but not for fuel. It was used instead of expensive Helium in the carrier cells/gasbags.

Sceptic's reservations were brushed aside and quite possibly belittled, ridiculed and accused of obstructing "progress"

 

Apologies for any wrong (rough) calculations and historical inaccuracies.

[10kDA]

Similarly deluded people fantasise about "zero emission" passenger planes. A fully loaded A320/737 size passenger plane weighs about 80 ton fuelled up to max range.

The fuel load is approximately 20 tons of that, it will be considerably reduced by the time it lands and by getting lighter as miles goes by it also slightly reduces fuel consumption.

Another factor is that it eases the loads on landing gear and son on, unlike a unicorn battery powered similar size plane which would require a battery pack that weighs 180 tons!

 

Imagine the landing gear required on that monstrosity!? Not that it will ever happen, or get off the ground, literally!!

 

The issue with a transport-category airplane can be max landing weight, which is often substantially less than max takeoff weight. The landing gear will surely take a beating but a more important limiting factor is the max weight capacity of the runways at the destination. Runways can handle much greater weights when a large, heavy airplane rolls from the taxiway and blasts itself into the blue than when an airplane (pilot) arrives committing anything other than the ideal and elusive "greaser". Certain, probably most, airports would be eliminated from use until multi-$$$$$$ construction projects brought them into compliance, which is not out of the question but could not be done overnight, nor would it happen at every airport. The workaround would be for any electric airplane to have a max takeoff weight never exceed max landing weight. Efficiency would likely be questioned... But still not a dealbreaker. Electric transport category aircraft could conceivably be used for moving large volumes of not-too-heavy substances such as marshmallows, rice cakes, and styrofoam. Maybe hydrogen if one needed to get it from Point A to Point B before evaporating.

[Vitesse2]

The zeppelin "Hindenburg" was full of Hydrogen too, but not for fuel. It was used instead of expensive Helium in the carrier cells/gasbags.

Sceptic's reservations were brushed aside and quite possibly belittled, ridiculed and accused of obstructing "progress"

 

Apologies for any wrong (rough) calculations and historical inaccuracies.

Hydrogen was used because the Americans - who controlled the world supply of helium - refused to sell it to them under the terms of the Helium Control Act of 1927. Hindenburg was therefore re-designed to use hydrogen. Even after the Hindenburg disaster the Germans were still hoping to use helium in its sister ship - LZ130, the second Graf Zeppelin - but that plan fell through as well when Roosevelt signed a further Executive Order in May 1938. Both Graf Zeppelins - LZ127 and LZ130 - were broken up for scrap in 1940.

[john aston]

If electricity is produced from renewables , as it increasingly is , it is far from delusory to talk about zero emissions. An exaggeration perhaps , but if electricity means we stop choking inner city kids with the vile fumes from shonky old diesels it can only be a good thing , right ? And new diesels might be far cleaner than ever, but you don't have to transport electricity 3000 miles  in giant tankers before you even start making the stuff.  

[KWSN - DSM]

If electricity is produced from renewables , as it increasingly is , it is far from delusory to talk about zero emissions. An exaggeration perhaps , but if electricity means we stop choking inner city kids with the vile fumes from shonky old diesels it can only be a good thing , right ? And new diesels might be far cleaner than ever, but you don't have to transport electricity 3000 miles  in giant tankers before you even start making the stuff.  

 

I am certain reality will land us all somewhere in between... Cars are being mandated to be zero emission by set dates all over the world, the car manufacturers flock to design and corner that market, those who like me dislike the idea of cars not powered by internal combustion engines will be left behind... the totality of zero emission is definitely not zero emissions, while being operated yes, but from construction until pulled apart at the wrecker a lot or emissions will take place.

 

Having seen the pictures of the world during the Pandemic, I welcome less emissions, which is not the same as me saying I will go by an electric car if I can avoid it. I would be happy to make my home as little emitting as possible, I have no emotional attachment to how energy for my house is being manufactured.

 

[D-Type]

What Formula E might accomplish is to encourage the development of 'quick change' battery packs which I think is the future for electric vehicles.  Picture  a Nascar Electrocar pulling into the pit lane at Dayona and the Woods Cousins (sons and grandsons of the famous Woods Brothers) descend on the car, drop the battery pack onto a trolley and wheel in another and Big Cousin George jacks it into place with a quick lift jack.  The same technology could be used when a rep in his Ford Forward-Focus pulls into Watford Gap Service Station or the district nurse in her Mao Tse Minor pulls into her local garage.

[KWSN - DSM]

What Formula E might accomplish is to encourage the development of 'quick change' battery packs which I think is the future for electric vehicles.  Picture  a Nascar Electrocar pulling into the pit lane at Dayona and the Woods Cousins (sons and grandsons of the famous Woods Brothers) descend on the car, drop the battery pack onto a trolley and wheel in another and Big Cousin George jacks it into place with a quick lift jack.  The same technology could be used when a rep in his Ford Forward-Focus pulls into Watford Gap Service Station or the district nurse in her Mao Tse Minor pulls into her local garage.

 

Yes that is also how I vision the electrical cars to be running at least initially, so all you need is build your service stations so they can handle storage of full and empty battery packs,as well as charging capability for the empty packs.

 

I look forward to the calculation of zero emissions on those as well.

 

I am not trying to be facetious here, I am for less pollution, I am for all we can do to decrease our output, but the rethoric and politicians reacting with knee-jerk decisions are not the way forward as instant fix.

 

By all means, sun, wind, water energy, by all means electrical cars where they make sense, create functioning public transport, which is not ruled by a bottom line ROI, but seen as an investment by society for society.

 

Just do not tell me that electrical cars in 2030 is a solution to anything, look at the carbon output of the world since we started feelgood decisions and political glossy words, having achieved exactly nothing.

 

Make plastic bottles cost $5 when you buy a beverage, $5 you get back when you hand in the empty bottle anywhere they sell bottled beverages - same for any packing, wrapping of fast-food, same thing, no plastic bags at supermarkets, if you do not use a reusable as those they sell, they will add i$5 to you purchase. Unless people feel it, they will not change behavior, as soon as they do feel it, they will change.

 

[john aston]

Achieved exactly nothing ? Hardly - even in my world things have changed immensely - none of my cars achieved even 40 mpg until the 90s , now they do 50 plus regulalry.The roads don't reek of petrol as they did when I  was  a kid and there's not spilled diesel on every corner . We kill 1800 per year on our UK roads , 1800 too many but 25% of the figure in 1966,  Most of my waste is recycled and my house is properly insulated and double glazed .I grew up in an industrial area and the filth, smog and noise would be a national scandal now

 

Of course electrical cars aren't the whole solution but if you want to sneer at any sort of vehicle there are far better targets  .Does anybody , anywhere know why anybody wants to buy a Urus or a Bentayga  or any other of those hideous monuments to excess ? 

 

It';s fashionable to dismiss all politicians, usually in words which suggest the speaker could do so much better- except they never do , do they ?  .Words are cheap and politics is  a bloody tough job - I've known and worked with a number of  local and national politicians and the inconvenient truth is that I found the majority smart, hard working and decent . Sorry - but stuff changes because of politics - stuff like seat belts , gun control (in my country anyway), decent health care, safe systems of work, cleaner rivers , access to the countryside   and women's rights to vote..  

Edited by john aston, 07 June 2020 - 06:38.

[Doug Nye]

I expect that was what was said about that new-fangled 'Formula One' category in 1948.

 

Nope.  Missing the point.  In 1948 'Formula 1' merely modified pre-existing mainstream Grand Prix racing.  

 

Formula E in contrast is just one of far too many subsidiary categories dreamed up for whatever reasons might seem valid - or viable - or worthy - at the time of their inception....

 

And well said John - preceding post - I never thought that I would ever feel sympathy for politicians.  I do right now.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 07 June 2020 - 08:25.

[bradbury west]

Looking at John's final paragraph and Doug's last sentence, both of which hit so many nails on the head so well, it reminds me of a quotation from President, and General, Dwight D Eisenhower many years ago.

"farming sure looks simple when your plough is a pencil and you are a thousand miles from the cornfield"

You are damned if you do it, and damned if you do not.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 07 June 2020 - 11:20.

[BRG]

Nope.  Missing the point. 

 

I didn't miss your point, Doug.  And I am pretty sure that you didn't miss mine, even if my example wasn't perfect.

[KWSN - DSM]

Achieved exactly nothing ? Hardly - even in my world things have changed immensely - none of my cars achieved even 40 mpg until the 90s , now they do 50 plus regulalry.The roads don't reek of petrol as they did when I  was  a kid and there's not spilled diesel on every corner . We kill 1800 per year on our UK roads , 1800 too many but 25% of the figure in 1966,  Most of my waste is recycled and my house is properly insulated and double glazed .I grew up in an industrial area and the filth, smog and noise would be a national scandal now

 

Of course electrical cars aren't the whole solution but if you want to sneer at any sort of vehicle there are far better targets  .Does anybody , anywhere know why anybody wants to buy a Urus or a Bentayga  or any other of those hideous monuments to excess ? 

 

It';s fashionable to dismiss all politicians, usually in words which suggest the speaker could do so much better- except they never do , do they ?  .Words are cheap and politics is  a bloody tough job - I've known and worked with a number of  local and national politicians and the inconvenient truth is that I found the majority smart, hard working and decent . Sorry - but stuff changes because of politics - stuff like seat belts , gun control (in my country anyway), decent health care, safe systems of work, cleaner rivers , access to the countryside   and women's rights to vote..  

 

I agree with all you say, it's on me for not making my point clear.

 

[Jack-the-Lad]

Hell: virtual FE.

[moffspeed]

Going back to Brabham impersonators there was that chancer with a beard and a stick who hobbled onto the grid at Zandvoort in '66 and claimed to be Black Jack..