28 replies to this topic

[Odseybod]

A quick test for the local gurus, from practice for the 1969 BOAC 500. It looks to me like a Lola T70 but I can't find one in the entry list that matches the colour scheme - and who is the praying driver (the helmet looks very familiar)?

 

Thanks in advance for your expertise.

 

[Doug Nye]

I would suggest No 1 - Paul Hawkins/Jonathan Williams (seen here) Paul Hawkins Racing Lola-Chevrolet T70 GT Mark 3B, retired. 

[Odseybod]

Thanks for the speedy response, Doug.

 

That particular T70  looks very red in the only online pics I can find of it - perhaps a quick visit to an under-the-arches Kent respray shop between practice and the race?

[john winfield]

That looks like Jonathan Williams' helmet but I wonder if he's giving David Piper a hand with a problem on David's (green) Lola T70.  But don't trust me, I'm colour-blind.

[Odseybod]

Many thanks, John. I did think it looked like Piper Green but it doesn't look as though his car had a gold stripe down the middle, as this one seems to. That's another vote for Jonathan Williams, though!

 

.

[Tim Murray]

That doesn’t look like ‘Piper green’ to me. The helmet looks a very similar colour to David Prophet’s, but I can’t find any photos of him showing that gold pinstripe.

[Simon Hadfield]

I’m reasonably sure this is David Prophet’s Lola T70 Mk 3, shared at Brands with Ed Nelson, purchased and used I think while the homologation of the McLaren M6GT was “under discussion” and while his M6GT was being converted to M12 specification.  

As Tim says I have not seen David with either a pinstripe or peak on his helmet but it looks to be him. He wasn't the tallest bloke either.  

It does appear to have been painted in a bit of a rush, the light green of Mike de Udy (the previous and original owner) can still be seen around the fuel filler.   

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 25 May 2020 - 09:43.

[kyle936]

This is David Prophet's T70 at Nurburgring in June of that year (it's the only T70 that doesn't have a photo to go with it at Brands Hatch on the Racing Sports Car site)

 

https://www.racingsp...9-06-01-066.jpg

 

The 'colours' are described only as 'dark (+darker)' but you can see the centre stripe is the same width as the gold stripe in Odseybod's photo.

 

It's listed as chassis #105, in which case according to the World Sports Racing Prototypes site, this was its subsequent, if not eventual (it was somehow rebuilt) fate (re-bodied as a 917)...

 

 

Edit: link to WSRP site corrected - only just (at long last) getting the hang of posting text as a link.

 

Also, @ john winfield: SNAP! 

Edited by kyle936, 25 May 2020 - 14:52.

[john winfield]

And, having looked more closely, I can't see any pinstripe on other shots of Jonathan Williams' helmet which, otherwise, looks very similar. Martin K's  sportscar website has some interesting shots but, unfortunately, not the Prophet car at Brands in 1969. But there is a b/w picture  of what seems to be the same car, and driver pairing, at the Nurburgring seven weeks later. By then the paintwork is 'dark', two-tone:

 

https://www.racingsp...9-06-01-066.jpg

 

 

Edit.  Kyle and I were looking at the same thing!

 

 

Interesting to learn from Simon that the car was ex-de Udy and that, in looking at the pictures, quite how light 'de Udy green' was. I'd forgotten that.

Edited by john winfield, 25 May 2020 - 10:29.

[Simon Hadfield]

Also now looking more closely at the image in the opening post you can see the holes in the tops of the doors where the De Udy cockpit air ducts have been removed.  So it is SL73/105, as to whether that is David, I would suggest that it would seem likely....

Was this car really one of the Le Mans film stunt cars?  The acknowledged history says it went to Egmont Dursch in Germany in 1970 and was raced and hill climbed by him though to 1973.  Along the way it was fitted with an odd looking open two seater body - so was it actually sold to Solar Productions, abused and then the remains obtained and rebodied by Herr Dursch?  It would be interesting to see a period photograph showing Herr Dursch racing the car as a GT in 1970/71.  

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 25 May 2020 - 10:39.

[Doug Nye]

I would defer to Simon re Prophet - the pit lane is Brands (grotty) - not the Nurburgring - I recall Paul Hawkins's cars as having been red, but thought the green and gold here revealed a hitherto unremembered Australian livery - a la Brabham - perhaps briefly applied.  Prophet was slightly built - and balding - but I don't recall Jonathan having a fine stripe on his crash helmet.  And the overalls are - perhaps - just too scruffy...  Australian livery - or perhaps Seth Efrican?

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 25 May 2020 - 11:51.

[Simon Hadfield]

The most excellent racingsportscars site says that Herr Dursch raced the car in 1970, as late as October, skips 1971 and reappears with a “Lola Special” in 1972.   He is said to have raced a Camaro in 1971 so was the Lola’s year off simply to facilitate the upgrade of his by now rather old car?   

If this is all as recorded then I don’t see how it could have been at Le Mans being knocked about. 

 

However, if the biffing was filmed at the end of shooting in November 1970 actually it is possible and the car did look very different on its reappearance in 1972.  But then it would be reasonable to expect something of this would be recorded in the various marque histories.  All most odd.   

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 25 May 2020 - 10:57.

[kyle936]

The most excellent racingsportscars site says that Herr Dursch raced the car in 1970, as late as October, skips 1971 and reappears with a “Lola Special” in 1972.   He is said to have raced a Camaro in 1971 so was the Lola’s year off simply to facilitate the upgrade of his by now rather old car?   

If this is all as recorded then I don’t see how it could have been at Le Mans being knocked about. 

I messed up the link to the World Sports Racing Prototypes site in the post above (I got mixed up and the link I posted just took you back to this thread!)

 

http://www.wsrp.cz/c...s_lola_t70.html

 

Just says "Car used in Le Mans film carrying Porsche 917 bodywork, crashed and repaired in 1970".

 

According to Wiki, the Le Mans movie was shot between June and November 1970, so maybe Herr Dursch flogged it after October, got it back as scrap and rebuilt it, not in 1970 but in 1971, to race in 1972?

 

I have a neighbour who always dreamed of owning a World War II Jeep, got one, spent months restoring it but then lent it to a film - 'The Water Horse'. He was paid for doing so, of course, but it was in such a state when he got it back, he swore he'd never do it again.

 

If the above actually is what happened to #105, you have to wonder what Herr Dursch thought when he got his T70 back...

[Ray Bell]

Doug, the Paul Hawkins Lola T70 coupe he raced in Australia was definitely a dark green...

 

Not metallic, no stripes, just dark green.

[68targa]

This is definately David Prophet's car - green with centre gold/yellow stripe. I have a blurry photo below  (Thruxton 10 Aug 69) which does show the colours.

 

Ed Nelson was David Prophet's co-driver at that BOAC race and vague memory suggests his helmet was red but I cannot find any photos of him. I have several photos of David Prophet but none of them show a stripe around the helmet although his helmet was a maroon red

 

 

[Odseybod]

Thanks to all for the investigations and solution - another piece of archive jigsaw slotted into place, with some interesting detours along the way..

 

Re the 'Australian' livery. I went off at a tangent during my early pre-TNF gurus rummaging, as there's a model of a Ford 3L with Brabham-style livery, which is sometimes idenified as 1969 (whereas it's almost certainly a 1968 P38, not P39 - couldn't find any actual shots of the car it's based on). Just to add to the fun, Jack Brabham was driving a Ford 3L P39 in the 1969 BOAC race, partnered with Frank Gardner (that must have beeen a fun pit) - but in 'proper' Alan Mann red and gold livery.

 

Thanks again - TNF never disappoints.

Edited by Odseybod, 25 May 2020 - 12:22.

[group7]

Just to add to this, as mentioned by Simon above, I have in my computer files an image of what is identified as SL/73/105 driven by Egmont/Durschin ? (some places shown as Dursch) Lola Special, with open body work similar to 70's McLaren Can-Am body work squeezed at the sides onto the Lola chassis, somewhere in Europe 1972. Can't post here but if it is of interest pm me and I can send it.

 

Michael

[Collombin]

Thanks again - TNF never disappoints.

This stuff is straightforward for TNF. What stumps us is ascertaining if a photo is of a world champion or their sister.

[pete53]

Okay Prophet or Nelson, but I'd love to know what he is doing  

[group7]

There is some one inside the car as well, you can see their hand through the windscreen. maybe the driver on the front of the car is replenishing some reservoir with with vital fluid    reminds me of the story of  a friend of my parents who was with the RAF during the war, he had landed a C-47 in occupied Poland, there was a problem taking off, they had to jettison all excess weight, including some hydraulic  fluid for the  landing gear,  to get the gear up they had to fill the fluid container  with whatever fluids were at hand     how much truth there is to that story (landing in Poland is true, I believe there was a book about that mission ?), but he enjoyed retelling it. bit off topic now !

 

Michael

Edited by group7, 26 May 2020 - 02:35.

[Dave Ware]

I wonder why the driver is working on the car and not the mechanics.  Might this be a pitstop during the race, since the driver still has his helmet and leather gloves on?  Even so, why the driver and not the mechanics? 

 

The hand inside the car certainly looks like a right hand, so where is the rest of that person's body?  Under the car reaching up? 

 

In any case, I really like the treaded tires. 

[Red Socks]

It looks to me as if the car is at the end of the pitlane, did it break down as it was leaving the pits and the only one allowed to touch it is the driver-or other driver ?

[john winfield]

I agree with Red Socks that it looks like the (Paddock Hill) end of the pitlane - I don't think the pitlane gradient and barrier match anywhere else, do they?

 

According to the sportscar website the Lola only completed four laps.  If these were the first four laps then I don't think this photo is likely to be raceday, unless Prophet, Nelson etc worked for hours in the pitlane trying to resolve the problem. And even then, why would the driver keep his helmet on?  Thinking of Brands' geography, and knowing it's April, this looks like late afternoon sunshine to me, not just after midday when I believe the race started. The footage posted by pete53 on the BOAC thread shows the race starting under cloudy skies, although there is a little bright sunlight later. I remember being in sunshine on South Bank, and I think the Motor Sport photos (which I don't have to hand) are bright and sunny.

 

Also, the Lola was way down the grid, slowest qualifier, with many smaller cars ahead. Presumably it had problems in practice so, perhaps, this is Prophet and the owner of that ghostly hand trying to sort things out on the Saturday afternoon. 

 

I know, all guesswork!

[Ray Bell]

I don't think that hand is very ghostly...

 

Just what you normally see through a window with light on the outside. You can also see the body of the man leaning forward. Can't you?

[10kDA]

Possibly an issue with ventilation? Or electrical?

[john winfield]

I don't think that hand is very ghostly...

 

Just what you normally see through a window with light on the outside. You can also see the body of the man leaning forward. Can't you?

 

Ah, but I'm colour blind Ray.......

 

And to be honest, no, I didn't notice the second person until group7 pointed him out.  Anyway, thanks for chipping in. 

[Odseybod]

Just to confirm, the mystery pic was indeed taken during practice and is one of several from the pitlane, I'd suggest towards the entrancee from Clearways. It may even be the same T70 in the background below, though still with its front bodywok in place at this stage. Being photographed into the light doesn't help with the colours, though!

 

 

Incidentally this pic of a Porsche 908 eating an engineer suggests others had a similar problem with lack of ventilation (if as suggested that's what is going on), despite it being a British April.

 

 

As part of the elimination process, it's worth sayng that Ed Nelson's helmet was silver - or at least, the one on the coffin at his funeral last June certainly was.

 

Thanks for the continued sleuthing.

 

 

 

 

[2F-001]

Okay Prophet or Nelson, but I'd love to know what he is doing

That's a knee/leg visible through the driver's side window, isn't it?

 

I assumed that the person in the cockpit had his head and left arm in the passenger side footwell, under the dash, with the right hand on the dash for support.  And that one person was holding some component or other against a front bulkhead, whilst the other one fixed or replaced a fastener of some sort.

 

Anyway, some task that required hand access from both sides - and presumably attempted in a hurry, hence the gloves and helmet remaining in place.

Edited by 2F-001, 26 May 2020 - 13:52.

[Henk Vasmel]

Maybe this helps. Cropped and rotated, it shows the face more clearly, and then someone might recognize him. Myself, I am hopeless with recognizing faces. Can't even tell Damon and Brigitte apart.

 

https://i.postimg.cc...j4/Lola-T70.jpg