825 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

I’ve just read another article where Lawrence Stroll is criticising the team for being slow, and it struck me that in the ‘Frank and Patrick days’ there would have been some stern dressing downs over statements like that, and then the driver probably replaced along the line.

And then it struck me that the team would probably not have become so weak if the guys at the top of the team in the 90’s were still in place. As Franks health and influence have decreased, there’s a direct correlation with the teams fortunes on track. All the other ‘also rans’ Have died off and left Williams at the bottom of the field (especially now sauber are sorting their stable out).

Reminds me of Tyrell, once a formidable team at the top of their game, race wins and championships easily obtained with world class drivers.

And then toward the end, they became also-rans running people like Rosset and Takagi, trundling around at the back crashing into themselves.

They have the championship leading/winning engine yet look hopeless! What can they do to reverse the descent?

[Fisico54]

More to do with never managing to partner successfully with an engine manufacturer since Renault (and to an extent BMW) than anything else and a large portion of the blame for that falls on Frank Williams+Head.
Taking the money of Maldonado, Stroll etc is all a symptom not a cause

[Jazza]

Nothing. The best they could hope for would be to become a Mercedes B team like the relationship between Haas and Ferrari, giving them perhaps the chance to break into the top four. Outside of that, they have no chance against Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Red Bull, and McLaren now that they have a decent engine. In fact, I doubt that anyone else has a chance either, as It’s pretty obvious that those 5 have the top half of the WCC locked in this year and it’s unlikely that anyone else can break into that. They have the drivers and resources to outdevelop everyone, and their just isn’t a big enough difference between the engines this year for a team like Williams to overcome that kind of advantage.

Edited by Jazza, 19 May 2018 - 07:04.

[Ali_G]

Can’t over estimate the loss of Adrian Newey to McLaren.

[Man of the race]

Their problem is not the engine, but with an "exclusive" partner there could be fresh resources and a way to get a car design together. If the everchanging engine rule visions will be temptating enough, a joinup with a new manufacturer which wants to be associated with a brilliant heritage could work? And then there is Honda still, equally brilliant, if and when it starts to deliver.

Edited by Man of the race, 19 May 2018 - 15:03.

[FirstnameLastname]

They should have talked Honda into going with them. Extra dosh would have lessened the need for the pay drivers, and as martini are leaving they could fling a retro-livery on the cars and suddenly everyone would be rooting for them again.

They’re at the back anyway... what’s to lose?

Sort of like when they employed Bruno Senna.... but this time with a bit more behind it.

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 19 May 2018 - 07:40.

[maverick69]

Technically Merc are the new Tyrrell!

But yes. The decline looks very similar and sad. They need the budget cap badly.

[P123]

Can’t over estimate the loss of Adrian Newey to McLaren.

They did have a dip after he left but picked up again and still won races and challenged for a championship with BMW. The biggest loss was BMW and manufacturer support and the cash that comes with it, as apart from a couple of seasons where the Merc engine truly made a difference they have struggled since. They've been bouncing around as a customer of Cosworth, Toyota, Renault and now Merc. Maybe a warning to McLaren, but hopefully F1's new commercial settlement will help them avoid Williams fall.

They should have talked Honda into going with them.

Yep, can't understand why they didn't chase Honda for a works deal. They could have rebuilt together.

[PayasYouRace]

With the current shortage of manufacturers, there isn't much chance of getting into a works deal. In hindsight Honda looks like it would have been worth chasing, but that would have been a massive risk at the time going by how things had gone with McLaren. It's different for Toro Rosso because they can be Red Bull's guinea pig. They did the right thing at the time by avoiding them.

 

They've got this year's car wrong, but they have the capability of doing better. There might be a cash shortage but they have the resources.

 

F1 has changed since Tyrrell were at the back, though there are the similarities. Tyrrell in the 90s had some reasonably competitive seasons (though never breaking into the top 4 as Williams did in 2014/15). However they got overtaken by development in technical facilities, to the point that BAT didn't want to use their base and only bought their entry. That wouldn't be the case today.

 

Tyrrell also had a works supply from Yamaha, in an age when most teams had exclusive or semi-exclusive deals with a manufacturer. Again, F1 has changed a lot since then.

 

Renault and Newey have little to do with it, because they were still up there with BMW, challenging for the championship. I'm glad they didn't capitulate to BMW, because in the end BMW almost killed Sauber. BMW got too greedy and wanted the entire team. That would have been the end of Williams 10 years ago. So they're still around today.

[Talisman]

Williams (Paddy Lowe) did chase Honda when the McLaren deal hit trouble. Honda didn’t even want to meet up for preliminary discussions.

[BertoC]

There's also a few similarities with Lotus downfall, they also had a small resurgence after the founder step down (passed away in case of Lotus) in those Senna years that kinda mirror the early V6 years in Williams case. It all went down after that, quite fast with Lotus.

[Lights]

Had they not ridden the Merc PU wave but instead been for whatever reason stuck with the struggling Renault PU after 2013, they'd have been poor ever since. They didn't even know why they were fast in 2014, but the PU advantage was big back then.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Can’t over estimate the loss of Adrian Newey to McLaren.

Other teams are doing just fine without him - Over rated maybe in this CFD age?

[Hati]

I was going to say 'next', not 'new' but started to think, who are left in line. Of those teams left that have merits only McLaren can fade away, rest will quit when board says so and Laren may be joining that group now that it's a car manufacturer too.

 

 

Other teams are doing just fine without him - Over rated maybe in this CFD age?

 

Calculate championships that are won without Newey or Brawn in lead since 1992. And deduct from that number championships that went to heirs of Brawn and you don't need many fingers to show the number. Then think if he's overrated or not.

[Clatter]

I’ve just read another article where Lawrence Stroll is criticising the team for being slow, and it struck me that in the ‘Frank and Patrick days’ there would have been some stern dressing downs over statements like that, and then the driver probably replaced along the line.

And then it struck me that the team would probably not have become so weak if the guys at the top of the team in the 90’s were still in place. As Franks health and influence have decreased, there’s a direct correlation with the teams fortunes on track. All the other ‘also rans’ Have died off and left Williams at the bottom of the field (especially now sauber are sorting their stable out).

Reminds me of Tyrell, once a formidable team at the top of their game, race wins and championships easily obtained with world class drivers.

And then toward the end, they became also-rans running people like Rosset and Takagi, trundling around at the back crashing into themselves.

They have the championship leading/winning engine yet look hopeless! What can they do to reverse the descent?

Can you provide the link for the stroll article?

[jcbc3]

https://www.autospor...-rude-awakening

[pdac]

Same for any business that starts with one or a few people who are talented and enthusiastic. They have the energy and desired to chase what is needed to be successful - and so they succeed. But when they start to lose the energy or enthusiasm and the business gets too big for them to control on their own then the momentum dies away.

 

Control and decision making is share or passed to others that don't have the same talent and/or enthusiasm and the end result is always that the business is either taken over by a big corporation or simply fades away. It happens to all businesses and it is happening to Williams. In a few years time Williams will either be taken over by a bunch of suits or else it will shrink to nothing.

[Laster]

‘Williams the new Tyrrel.’ I’ve been hearing people say that since I first started visiting motorsport forums in 2010 - they’ve never been any where close to it. This is a bad season for them, but they’re not going bankrupt. We are unfortunately in an era of F1 where it is near impossible for independents to compete against manufacturers due to ridiculously overinflated budgets and how poorly the wealth of F1 is distributed. That’s not the only reason for Williams down turn in form but it has been a contributing factor. Should regulations change in 2021 I expect Williams will be able to recover, perhaps not to 90’s levels but certainly to the point where having two pay drivers with next to no experience won’t be a necessity for them.

[FirstnameLastname]

https://www.autospor...-rude-awakening

Was this one; https://www.motorspo...kening-1038843/

Although all these sites are essentially the same one under different guises

[tomjol]

Nothing. The best they could hope for would be to become a Mercedes B team like the relationship between Haas and Ferrari, giving them perhaps the chance to break into the top four. Outside of that, they have no chance against Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Red Bull, and McLaren now that they have a decent engine. In fact, I doubt that anyone else has a chance either, as It’s pretty obvious that those 5 have the top half of the WCC locked in this year and it’s unlikely that anyone else can break into that. They have the drivers and resources to outdevelop everyone, and their just isn’t a big enough difference between the engines this year for a team like Williams to overcome that kind of advantage.

 

Essentially, nobody does.

 

Ferrari has FCA behind them.

Mercedes has, well, Mercedes.

Renault similar.

Red Bull has Dietrich.

McLaren has Bahrain.

 

Lawrence Stroll has plenty of cash, but not on the scale of those guys, and he isn't daft enough to pour it all into Williams. As you say, the best they can hope for is to compete properly in the midfield.

[gary76]

The comment by Lance Stroll's father that the Williams plight was "a rude awaking" has in my eyes rather typified the current semi rich type of sponsor who are pushing their sons into the sport. Yes, they have always been there perhaps but not expecting to jump straight to the top of the pile.

If it was easy everybody would be doing it and lots of people have tried very hard and still not succeeded, that  makes the game exciting. Perhaps Mr Stroll should have a look at the Alonso, perhaps one of the best drivers in the current field, and be aware of his results.

Maybe I have taken his comment out of context. As for the other comments in this post about Adrian Newey etc., one man does not make a team in this day and age, it is a collection of people who are knitted together by good management.

[Clatter]

Was this one; https://www.motorspo...kening-1038843/

Although all these sites are essentially the same one under different guises

That's the one I found and really it's just stating the obvious. It's not exactly slamming the team, and certainly doesn't say anything that would need team intervention.

[pdac]

Essentially, nobody does.

 

Ferrari has FCA behind them.

Mercedes has, well, Mercedes.

Renault similar.

Red Bull has Dietrich.

McLaren has Bahrain.

 

Lawrence Stroll has plenty of cash, but not on the scale of those guys, and he isn't daft enough to pour it all into Williams. As you say, the best they can hope for is to compete properly in the midfield.

 

That's a major difference in the F1 world today. In the past a very rich individual could buy/start a team for their son and there was the possibility to go around and knock on doors and get everything in place to build that team into championship contenders within a short-ish time frame. That is now impossible you need the might of global giants to achieve such a feat. I would even suggest that if a Red Bull type outfit were to start out now, they could not achieve what Red Bull have.

[Vettelari]

Williams are putting all of their eggs into becoming a works team in the next Formula. They have even stated as much. I think it is the right plan, but I have no idea who they think is going to come aboard. Maybe they know something that we don't? Williams-Porsche might get them back to the promised land.

[Spillage]

I really hope they're not the new Tyrrell. I don't think I could handle Ricardo Rosset chugging around in a Williams.

[PayasYouRace]

I really hope they're not the new Tyrrell. I don't think I could handle Ricardo Rosset chugging around in a Williams.

Sadly Sirotkin is looking like the new Rosset.

Don’t forget Rosset came into F1 as F3000 runner up.

[FirstnameLastname]

Sadly Sirotkin is looking like the new Rosset.

Don’t forget Rosset came into F1 as F3000 runner up.

And MasterCard Lola team leader. One of their key drivers

[PayasYouRace]

And MasterCard Lola team leader. One of their key drivers

 

He already had an F1 season under his belt when he went to Lola.

[Boing 2]

I loved Tyrrell but they were a flash in the pan compared to Williams, a brief 4 year window of success with Jackie before sliding quickly and permanently to the midfield, Ken never modernised the business model, always looking for the big idea that would jump him to the front in an era of steady evolution and detail design. Williams on the other hand were a dominant force for 2 decades, successfully transitioned from lock up run privateers to a major, properly structured modern team and after the bad years had recovered to the third best team only a few seasons ago.  They were the last true privateers to win a title on merit, everyone since has been owned by multi billion pound parent companies with the exception of Brawn who's car was designed with Honda resources. Maybe success simply isn't possible as a privateer any more although that doesn't excuse their terrible form this year. It's undoubtedly a danger year though with Martini leaving at the end of the year they needed to shine to attract new sponsors and with this car and these drivers that's probably not going to happen.

 

Will they survive? they're in the black financially, have the best engine on the grid and can still attract decent tech staff but it wouldn't take much to tip them back into a long term slide again and this years form might just be enough to do that.

[hogstar]

Williams are under achieving, that's the bottom line. While they do not have the resources - or more to the point - expertise to be on the front row, they should be a decent midfield outfit. 

 

When it was essentially Head/Dernie/Oately, they still had problems (remember the undriveable FW09/B), but always seemed to overcome them. 

 

I'm not totally convinced if they were a works outfit things would be much different. That aspect is heavily exaggerated. Poor Aero, lack of grip/downforce/heat in tyres are issues that lie clearly and squarely with Williams which no 'works' partner can solve. 

 

I just get the feeling that Williams have become a committee, rather that having somebody calling the shots. As a result of this, every aspect of the team seems to be compromised. 

 

I wonder what Patrick Head thinks of it all...

[PlayboyRacer]

Can’t over estimate the loss of Adrian Newey to McLaren.

This. Sure they won some races (01-04) and challenged for one championship (2003) but, since the Williams Renault/Newey days, they have not produced the best car on the grid. Not even close. I'm sure Sir Frank at some point did admit letting Adrian go was a huge mistake IIRC.

 

Most of the post 1997 period, they've been mediocre truth be told. I don't see a way back now.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 19 May 2018 - 12:24.

[Myrvold]

He already had an F1 season under his belt when he went to Lola.

And 2 when he took Verstappens spot on Tyrrell. Granted. That seat was all down to BAT wanting the season to be as cheap as possible.

 

EDIT: Well, if MasterCard Lola had been anywhere near useful, he'd have 2...

Edited by Myrvold, 19 May 2018 - 16:09.

[DoodoolTalla]

I never really warmed to Claire Williams, she always comes across like a SJW and gets offended easily. I feel that she's been getting a very easy ride in the media compared to other struggling team bosses.

[ArrowsLivery]

It’s symbolic of the rot that plagues F1 at the moment. It all began when Red Bull and Bernard conspired to destroy FOTA and sign the new “Concord” agreement. Teams like Williams became also rans over night,

[BertoC]

I never really warmed to Claire Williams, she always comes across like a SJW....

 

My eyes rolled so hard could almost see my brain. 

[Gary Davies]

I commend an article at (Autosport associate's) James Allen's site https://www.jamesall...hard-to-ignore/

 

It brings into focus the exquisite natural ability of Robert Kubica and at the same time makes the point that Williams, struggling to find a way out of the ditch it has got itself into, has to rely on two rookies funded by their wealthy dads.

 

I was fortunate to attend a talk by one of the senior F1 journalists not long ago and he made the point that some drivers, and Kubica was nominated as one of a small elite over the years, have the ability to lift, to inspire, the whole team... the designers, the mechanics, the support staff and yes, the bosses... in ways that are not tangible, that can't be translated onto a P&L account.

 

I'm not claiming that to have Kubica leading the team would be a panacea but I do think it is most unfortunate for Williams that it has chosen the path of putting in the car two inexperienced drivers who may have potential but who are nonetheless fundamentally there because of Daddy's largesse and enthusiasm.

 

Right now, I can't see how Williams is ever going to get near the sharp end of the grid. And that's sad, given the long tradition and all the blood sweat and tears Frank and Patrick put into it.

[jcbc3]

I agree on all you said, but at the same time I am a bit annoyed that a CLEARLY limited Kubica is touted as a potential saviour of Williams (not by you Gary). Kubica was a wonderful talented race driver in his pomp. But there's a reason he doesn't have a full time F1 contract despite two, not even top teams, having tested him extensively. I also happen to believe that the current Williams pairing of Stroll and Sirotkin may be the worst on the grid. But at the same time, I think that they are the least of Williams' problems. Their design team must bear the brunt of guilt for the current predicament.

[Kalmake]

https://www.racefans...n-testing-lowe/

 

How it wasn't fixed says something about their limited resources.

 

Baku was really the best track for this car. It likes low downforce and short slow speed corners... or dislikes the opposite. Canada is the next stop that might suit it.

[pdac]

https://www.racefans...n-testing-lowe/

 

How it wasn't fixed says something about their limited resources.

 

Baku was really the best track for this car. It likes low downforce and short slow speed corners... or dislikes the opposite. Canada is the next stop that might suit it.

 

Or simply a lack of understanding. He says "we haven't yet brought anything that solves those". This could mean they haven't yet found a solution or it could mean they have already tried several 'fixes' that just didn't work.

[Nonesuch]

Calculate championships that are won without Newey or Brawn in lead since 1992. And deduct from that number championships that went to heirs of Brawn and you don't need many fingers to show the number. Then think if he's overrated or not.

 

Not with criteria that broad, of course. But since a list of teams of Brawn and Newey - and anyone they worked with - is about the same as the list of 'biggest spenders' it's a bit curious to single out individuals.

 

Nobody denies that Newey is good at what he does, but he's not good enough to make the difference regardless of the circumstances. In the last five seasons, including this one, his cars have won just 1 in every 10 races - whereas in the five previous seasons they won 1 in 2. He didn't just become five times less competent, there are tons of factors at play.

 

Anyway, Williams' slide down the order is quite remarkable. They were at times genuinely close to Mercedes in 2014 and 2015 - not just second by default since Red Bull and Ferrari were so terrible. They really dropped the ball somewhere, and it's seemingly getting worse every season. Quite unfortunate.

Edited by Nonesuch, 20 May 2018 - 10:25.

[ensign14]

More to do with never managing to partner successfully with an engine manufacturer since Renault (and to an extent BMW) than anything else and a large portion of the blame for that falls on Frank Williams+Head.

 

Had they gone full partnership with BMW, there might not even be a Williams now.

[jcbc3]

Well, Sauber is still here, so...

[midgrid]

Well, Sauber is still here, so...

Sauber barely made it back onto the grid as an independent and Peter Sauber was still involved and willing to put in the work to ensure the team's survival.

If BMW had taken over Williams for 2006, perhaps Sir Frank would not have had the inclination to remain on board with Mario Theissen calling the shots?

It's worth saying, however, that all this is with the benefit of hindsight - Williams was an established top team and Sauber a perennial midfielder when these decisions were made. I'm sure that few thought that the few achievements of Williams's mediocre 2005 season would become an distant aspiration so quickly thereafter.

[BuddyHolly]

I loved Tyrrell but they were a flash in the pan compared to Williams, a brief 4 year window of success with Jackie before sliding quickly and permanently to the midfield, Ken never modernised the business model, always looking for the big idea that would jump him to the front in an era of steady evolution and detail design. Williams on the other hand were a dominant force for 2 decades, successfully transitioned from lock up run privateers to a major, properly structured modern team and after the bad years had recovered to the third best team only a few seasons ago.  They were the last true privateers to win a title on merit, everyone since has been owned by multi billion pound parent companies with the exception of Brawn who's car was designed with Honda resources. Maybe success simply isn't possible as a privateer any more although that doesn't excuse their terrible form this year. It's undoubtedly a danger year though with Martini leaving at the end of the year they needed to shine to attract new sponsors and with this car and these drivers that's probably not going to happen.

 

Will they survive? they're in the black financially, have the best engine on the grid and can still attract decent tech staff but it wouldn't take much to tip them back into a long term slide again and this years form might just be enough to do that.

 

tbh the biggest blow to Tyrrell was the end of 73, with JYS retiring and the horrific loss of the young and very talented Cevert it really put them on the back foot and although they had a few good races over the years, they were never quite the same again.

[ensign14]

Tyrrell's problem was the 6 wheeler.  They were still very competitive in 1974 and 1975.  And indeed they were with the 6 wheeler.  But once the tyre development for that stopped they were back to "regular" cars - and had basically lost 2 years of four-wheel development.  They never caught back up and were caught napping on the turbo.

 

Well, Sauber is still here, so...

 

Sauber made it through fraud.  I doubt Williams would have gone so far.

 

[sopa]

Tyrrell's problem was the 6 wheeler.  They were still very competitive in 1974 and 1975.  And indeed they were with the 6 wheeler.  But once the tyre development for that stopped they were back to "regular" cars - and had basically lost 2 years of four-wheel development.  They never caught back up and were caught napping on the turbo.

 

 

I have heard somewhere that Tyrrell rejected Renault's offer to become their works team in the mid-70's. Then Renault proceeded to start with their own team in F1. Oh, how different the fate of the team would have been with a Tyrrell-Renault turbocharged package. Perhaps Tyrrell would have been established as a regular legendary front-running team in F1, in place of Williams or McLaren?

[SUFC]

well , they say every team has it's peaks and trough periods but it's hard to see Williams peaking again to those heady heights of top drivers and championship battles.

[sopa]

I don't see Williams quite in the same state of as late Tyrrell in terms of ceasing to exist. Although - well, technically - Tyrrell didn't go bankrupt either, they just sold the team (to BAT). Is Williams going to sell soon? I have my doubts though you never know if their financial situation becomes truly desperate. But nowadays the market of F1 teams is different. Toro Rosso, Force India and Sauber have all been for sale at various points, but no buyers. So if we haven't "lost" these teams, I think Williams will stay too. At least as long as there are 10 teams, and nobody else joins, because the prize money they get helps them to survive. I say this because you could argue the entrance of Haas contributed to the demise of Manor, who dropped out of top 10 in WCC and lost all prize money. There is no team, who looks like could push Williams out of top 10 any time soon though. And for 2021 we might get a new 'Concorde' (with Liberty a new name I guess) anyway, which re-thinks the whole financial system.

 

In terms of performance though Williams isn't in a good position obviously and it's hard to climb upwards again. As for works deal - to get one you must be attractive, i.e have good infrastructure and performance to back up your potential and manufacturer's belief that the team can get the job done on the chassis side if they teamed up. Williams isn't proving they can do it, so they aren't an attractive proposition to any new manufacturer entrant. Were someone to join, I think Red Bull would be first in line to get a works deal. And McLaren is likely ahead of Williams in the queue as well.

 

Back in the day Williams could attract works deals (Honda for 1984, Renault 1989, BMW 2000), because they had proven they could design great chassis and had recent proven success. But Williams hasn't proven anything for a while, so yes in this sense they are more like latter day Lotus or Tyrrell, who couldn't attract works deals any more either. But Williams has greater chance of survival than those two due to different dynamics of teams. For example in 1990's it was more common to see new teams joining, either by entering by itself or purchasing a team. And if someone successfully joins, they push teams further backwards, making them more vulnerable to demise. For example Jordan (1991) and Sauber (1993) probably contributed to the demise of Lotus, because they entered successfully and pushed other teams backwards. Just like - as I mentioned above - Haas pushed Manor backwards. But F1 can sustain only so many teams.

[Loosenut]

If I got my history right, Tyrell is now Mercedes.

[ArrowsLivery]

It's a sad turn of events but this current incarnation of Williams is soiling the proud name of the team. Same with McLaren. I wouldn't mind if they were forced to change their names until they managed to fix the rampant incompetence plaguing their organizations.