62 replies to this topic

[AllAlongTheRacetrack]

Hi Everyone,

 

In the last weeks I've started doodling some historic (but not only) tracks, as I think Formula 1 should improve in exploring new countries and bringing the show to new crowds, giving re-birth to the history of motorsport and supporting the communities where the circus travels.

So I have studied, through various books and sources, all tracks around the world and I have tried to re-design the most significant ones to make them suitable for racing again.

Main rules I’ve followed:
1) Respecting the track history and environment
2) Considering constraints around the circuit
3) Trying to use some parts/areas of the original track
4) Modern safety standards and facilities

I have started with the Benguela Circuit in Angola, inaugurated in May 1972 when Angola was still a Portuguese territory, to replace the street circuit named Praia Morena, where several touring cars races have been held in the 60s.

It is located in the centre of the Angolan coast (Coordinates - 12°36'19", + 13°23'19") and it should have moved the motorsport tradition of the country to the next level
The 3.958km track had quite a basic design (compared to the other circuit in Luanda) but it was located in a much nicer location, less than 1 mile from the ocean.
It has been used for a series of long-distance sportscar races in the Angolan championship in 1973 and 1974
In 1975 with the revolution in Portugal all its colonial territories have been granted independence which has unfortunately generated a nearly 30 years long civil war that has severely affected the Angolan people faith up to now and has put an end to activities in this circuit.

Edited by AllAlongTheRacetrack, 20 June 2022 - 13:19.

[Rob G]

I was expecting tracks like Reims and Pescara. I don't know anything whatsoever about either of the tracks you've presented. How do your proposals relate to the originals? I think we need context here to show how these relate to history.

[jcbc3]

Fun idea.

 

Are we allowed to comment on your design? (which mean you may hear something you'd rather not)

[jcbc3]

ok, thanks

 

For the Panama circuit, I'm pretty certain the 10, 11, 12 complex won't work. Too Mickey Mouse.

[Ray Bell]

The existing layout for the Panama circuit seems to have that nice, challenging, fast corner from which you haven't completely straightened up before you have to brake for another corner...

 

Don't spoil that.

 

Tight corners are the bane of modern circuits.

[Rob Miller]

The Angola circuit has a nice flow to it, unlike the Panama one. Sharp, right angle bends are sometimes necessary on a street circuit, but five on a track in the open countryside is five too many.

Perhaps you could use some of the land in the upper left corner to let the middle section flow.

Rob

Edited by Rob Miller, 31 May 2020 - 22:53.

[Rob G]

You're right.

I'll have also more "mainstream" circuits to share, but bare in mind that I wanted to be realistic (not using locations that are no longer suitable due to buildings etc.) and do it for tracks that have history in general, not just ofr F1.

I have edited the 1st post with the Benguela circuit history.

 

Thanks for that. I too feel like your Angola proposal is more successful than the Panama proposal. For the latter, I like what you've done through turn 5, but I prefer the existing flow of where turn 6 would be. I'd also recommend bypassing turn 11 and using the existing track to connect 10 and 12, and maybe opening up 13 just a little. These changes would improve the flow as well as allow it to maintain more of the original track's layout and character.

[404KF2]

Would like to see someone do up Westwood in Coquitlam BC....

[nexfast]

To give some context a little film about the first race in the Benguela circuit back in 1972:

 

https://arquivos.rtp...mo-de-benguela/ (no sound)

 

A Ford GT40 battling with Alfa and NSU saloons. The Ford won...

[john aston]

My suggestion -  we stop holding  Grands Prix races  at terrible circuits in unsavoury countries with no racing heritage (you can guess which ones ). Instead , we create new venues in countries where there is a real passion for the sport, and which are  often the home place for successful drivers . 

 

So let's cash in Abu Dhabi (and the rest ) and have new GPs in Scandinavia , which must deserve at least two , to be held in Sweden and Denmark  in alternate years  . And , of course an annual Midnight Sun race in northern Finland - eat you heart out Singapore . Add in New Zealand , Colombia and South Africa .

 

Let's see some new circuits at countries which actually deserve them, rather than just pay for them.- so there's the brief !

[Charlieman]

Have you thought about a mini re-design of the Hungaroring? It's a circuit which is often criticised but it has hosted some interesting races. It's historic too, being the first circuit to host a WDC race behind the Iron Curtain.

 

Aerial photos suggest that the pinch points -- corners which ought to provide an overtaking opportunity, but do not -- could be opened up. I haven't checked the topography for calamitous dips or cliffs! Sadly, I guess that Hungary has joined John Aston's list of unsavoury countries, so there's lots of time for circuit changes.

 

A 'revived' circuit for New Zealand? Teretonga Park is at the end of nowhere, but you could do anything you like assuming that land owners might sell and there are no protected species to worry about. Local advice would be needed on how to retain or move banks of wild marsh flowers. You could even rename it the Burt Munro Teretonga Park. Of course, if the F1 calendar organisers had to schedule a race all the way down there, they'd pick the windiest weekend of the year..

[bsc]

Have you thought about a mini re-design of the Hungaroring? It's a circuit which is often criticised but it has hosted some interesting races. It's historic too, being the first circuit to host a WDC race behind the Iron Curtain.

Aerial photos suggest that the pinch points -- corners which ought to provide an overtaking opportunity, but do not -- could be opened up. I haven't checked the topography for calamitous dips or cliffs! Sadly, I guess that Hungary has joined John Aston's list of unsavoury countries, so there's lots of time for circuit changes.

I marshalled there a couple of years ago - I have to sat that despite not being a fan of the circuit before hand, in the flesh it was a great place to watch motor racing. Also, the circuit does not own a huge amount of land. This, in part, lead to the design as the twisty nature gave a circuit of sufficient length within a relatively small area.

[D-Type]

Who is a circuit for?  Not as silly as it sounds.  Should it be for competitors, spectators, TV, or a government?  And competitors range from the humble clubman through all categories up to the pinnacle of Formula 1.  Spectators include both the rich fan in the grandstand and the enthusiast on his picnic rug with his bag of sandwiches both should be able to choose between viewpoints that give a view of the whole circuit or close up of one corner, eg Brands Hatch Club circuit and Monaco as extremes.  And TV who at the moment pay the bills.  I include governments because some create circuits from, shall we say, national vanity or a desire to improve a country's standing and internatiopnal reputation.

Edited by D-Type, 04 June 2020 - 19:03.

[opplock]

The idea of an F1 GP at Terrible Tonga is one of the funniest ideas I've heard in a while. The biggest problem (of a very large number) is likely to be the 290 mile trek from the nearest airport able to handle cargo flights - Christchurch. No motorways down there so would we see the return of F1 cars being transported on trailers?

 

Advice for Pirelli. Allocate 10 sets of wets per car plus 3 sets of dry tyres in case they encounter one of the very rare dry days.   

[john aston]

Err- it;s a bit of fun , a 'what if ' , or 'why the hell not ' and hence unencumbered by real world constraints . 

[Charlieman]

I deliberately wrote: Teretonga Park is at the end of nowhere.

 

Nice town, nice people.

[opplock]

Err- it;s a bit of fun , a 'what if ' , or 'why the hell not ' and hence unencumbered by real world constraints . 

 

I was aware of that but the idea still made me laugh. Perhaps Elon Musk can arrange the Sea of Tranquility Grand Prix. It would have one big advantage over many current GPs as there is no murderous dictator to be fawned over. 

 

Teretonga isn't quite the end of nowhere. I've been to Stewart Island.     

[Doug Nye]

I got nicked for speeding one year on the way down to have a look at Teretonga.

 

A couple of years later I got nicked for speeding just outside Teretonga.

 

Perhaps there's a message here?  

 

DCN

[opplock]

You were very unlucky Doug. The theory in NZ used to be that Traffic Officers had a monthly quota to fill. They'd spend 2 weeks nicking everything that moved and then spend the rest of the month snoozing at the side of the road.  

[Ray Bell]

For all that comment about rain at Teretonga...

 

How many wet Tasman races were held there?

[opplock]

For all that comment about rain at Teretonga...

 

How many wet Tasman races were held there?

 

It was wet in 68, 72, 73 and weather for 75 race described as showers. So about 1 in 3 of the Tasman races were wet. 

 

A better record than the early days of Manfeild - 24 of the first 30 meetings were affected by rain. It was worth getting drenched to watch Brian Redman in the Chevron B29. 

[Duc-Man]

The 3rd one is Rouen, in France

Track details:

• 5.050 m long, clockwise
• 840 m straight
• Permanent circuit from turn 9 to 7
• Straight between 7 and 9 is public road
• 60 meters slope from turn 7 to 9
• Last sector (10 to 14) has a total 75m uphill
• Almost flat from last corner to turn 7
• Uses parts of the iconic circuit from the 50s and 60s

 

A bit of history:
 

Opened in 1950 by the Automobile Club of Normandy, close to the village of Les Essart, near Rouen city (+ 49°20'00", + 1°00'42").

The original layout used for the first 4 years (in green, 5,100 m) was almost a triangular shape of public roads connected, and it has hosted 2 F1 titled races.

In 1955 the track has been extended (6,542 m) to his most famous layout (blue) until 1971, being the venue for a F1 GP other 3 times, in 1962, 64 and 68.
Unfortunately the last edition, won by Jackie Ickx on Ferrari, was terribly marked by the crash of Jo Schlesser, on the revolutionary Honda, which resulted in his death.

The stigma of this fiery accident will cost the F1 to Rouen. Reduced in length from 1972 due to the construction of a new motorway (red, 5,542 m), it has hosted many races since but still affected by a number of fatal crashes in junior categories that led to definitive closure in 1994.

Particularly famous for his downhill from the pit area to the Virage Du Nouveau Monde hairpin (it was in cobblestone), and the as steep uphill in the retuning section, with fast non identical corners was loved by drivers and spectators.

F1 Lap Record by Jack Brabham in 2m11s.4 at 179.2 Km/h, on his Brabham BT7-Climax, established in 1964.

Winners:
1952 - Ascari (Ferrari)
1957 - Fangio (Maserati)
1962 - Gurney (Porsche)
1964 - Gurney (Brabham-Climax)
1968 - Ickx (Ferrari)

Old layouts:


Map:

 

Sorry to say but your redo of Rouen already exists. That's almost a copy of Magny-Cours. We also have already one Mr. Tilke, we don't need another one to ruin old, legendary racetracks.

[BRG]

Perhaps Elon Musk can arrange the Sea of Tranquility Grand Prix. It would have one big advantage over many current GPs as there is no murderous dictator to be fawned over. 

Except perhaps the increasingly erratic and unpredictable Mr Musk.....

 

The 3rd one is Rouen, in France

 

Wot, no Nouveau Monde?  Then it ain't Rouen-Les Essarts

[Ray Bell]

Definite signs of a lost plot here...

 

Ruining what was a great circuit doesn't make the grade for me.

[MCS]

The proposed new section from 9 to 11 would be interesting.  There's a ravine on the other side of what was once Virage Samson.

[Allan Lupton]

Ruining what was a great circuit doesn't make the grade for me.

 

We also have already one Mr. Tilke, we don't need another one to ruin old, legendary racetracks.

Quite so to both Ray and Duc-Man

I see the Tilke sine qua non of a stupidly sharp corner quite close to the Startline has been used. . . 

 

Edited by Allan Lupton, 06 June 2020 - 14:20.

[LittleChris]

The corner before Six Freres onto the proposed circuit would be interesting given there's a ravine at that point. Probably find bits of Georgio Francia's F2 Osella & the marshals post it demolished down there still !

Edited by LittleChris, 06 June 2020 - 15:04.

[Rob G]

I happen to like most of what he's done with Rouen. We have to keep in mind that this is not a Hockenheim situation, in which an active circuit is castrated and destroyed. This is a track that no longer exists and is theoretically being brought back to life and updated for the modern racing world.

 

That being said, the Nouveau Monde hairpin is the most iconic corner and absolutely needs to be retained. I also feel that the 1-2 chicane is unnecessary and would work better as a right-hand corner. At first glance the final corner seems out of place, but I see echoes of the Samson corner in it. The rest of the track flows very nicely, especially turns 3 through 8.

[opplock]

Filling in ravines won't be a problem now that there are millions of unemployed.  

 

The idea does remind me of a Brands Hatch programme showing plans for a revised circuit superimposed on current GP circuit (late 80s?, probably around 1st April). Looks familiar I thought and after a second glance realised that it was Silverstone GP circuit. A number of local residents didn't get the joke and swamped the circuit switchboard and on the following Monday that of the local authority. The landscaping required for that masterpiece would have used most of the spoil from Channel Tunnel.

[404KF2]

I think the area is completely built now... You can't redesign/modify the original circuit.

Were you thinking to a new track in the same area?

Oh it is, but the photos posted earlier in the thread seem to show subdivided and developed land too.

[Ray Bell]

How about we have a discussion about what we are looking for in circuits?

 

Open corners after the start are necessary so the grid can get away without a tangle in some tight corner.

 

Entering long straights from tight corners is non-productive as it becomes a drag strip rather than a straight where the driver's speed around the entry corner, ie. the driver's skill, is a major factor.

 

Use the topography to give variations that make it more challenging. Hidden Valley is a perfect example of how this has been neglected to the detriment of the circuit.

 

What ideas can others add?

[BRG]

I happen to like most of what he's done with Rouen. 

OK, but what we have is a new track that has no connection to the historic Rouen-Les Essarts track, other than occupying some of the same land.  It is not a re-design, but a completely new design.  That's fine but it could therefore be placed anywhere. 

 

Surely the point of re-designing a historic track is to bring it up to date in terms of safety and facilities whilst retaining the essential characteristics that made it 'historic'?

 

For example, Spa and Hockenheim were both truncated but kept many of their iconic features such as La Source/Radillion at Spa and the stadium section at Hockenheim.  Even the much maligned new Nurburgring retained the original start/finish/pits, even if it lost all of its character.

[Doug Nye]

The most memorable race circuits have surely been those using roads whose layout and profile were dictated by their location's natural geography.  

 

Some of the least memorable race circuits have been built by obliterating natural geography to meet man's imposed regulatory requirements. 

 

I just feel uncomfortable seeing even a suggestion of 'modernising' such great venues as Rouen.  

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

And I'm sure you'd agree, Doug, that it's not the hairpin that's counted as the loss...

 

It's all the downhill run, 'six freres', and that magic little tight section back up the hill which is almost a hillclimb in itself.

 

I agree wholeheartedly about using roads where necessity takes them in their ultimate direction. Nobody doesn't like Mount Panorama (or very, very few, anyway) and it has just that feature, the road follows the path it had to take to get to where it was going.

 

Filling a flat paddock with bitumen never achieved anything. Like I said about Hidden Valley, it has this twisty road coming round the back side, but it's been cut right into the scenery rather than following the natural levels and thus loses out.

[Duc-Man]

You've quoted Spa and Hockenheim which are 2 of the examples where the changes have been dramatic... and to me the stadium section in Hockenheim is all but iconic; it was the rest of the track that was iconic, and it is now definitely gone.
I think we all like different things, therefore we eould keep/amend different parts of historic circuits
 

I'm too young to remember the old Spa but I do remember Hockenheim before it's rebuild. The stadium section is the part that required skill. Through the forrest was pretty much just pedal to the metal and slowing down for the chicanes.

I hate the new Hockenheimring as much as I hate the new Silverstone. There was for me no understanable reason to ruin these tracks. And I see no reason for you to ruin other tracks, even knowing that will never happen and it is just in your fantasy.

 

It's like thinking about to stuff a Ford ecoboost engine in a 4 1/2 litre Bentley blower (that ran in LM) for reliability reasons because you want to use it as a daily drive.

[Ray Bell]

It really all depends on which version of the 'modernising' of Hockenheim you want to consider...

 

Originally the 'Stadium' section was put in there because the ORIGINAL circuit was cut short by the encroachment of an autobahn. So the 'Stadium' section wasn't original anyway.

 

And then the chicanes were added to cut speeds along the all too long straights into the forest. So the chicanes were two steps away from the original circuit.

 

Finally they let some hero loose with a total redesign which, as noted, kept some of the non-original circuit for the sake of history. No, for the sake of cost.

 

For interest's sake, here's Oscar's map of the original circuit:

 

https://1.bp.blogspo...im_38_63Fsm.png

 

It was by no means inspiring, but that's what it was before the autobahn came through in the early sixties.

[Geoff E]

The original Stadium was a running track close to the Start/Finish line. http://www.silhouet....racks/hock3.jpg

[BRG]

It really all depends on which version of the 'modernising' of Hockenheim you want to consider...

 

It was by no means inspiring, but that's what it was before the autobahn came through in the early sixties.

I think this demonstrates that the Hockenmeimring has been gradually improved.  It's pretty good now and provides that rare thing these days, good racing.

[Ray Bell]

For a start, I've not voiced any opinion about whether or not the most recent change was an improvement...

 

I was mainly pointing out that there is basically nothing left of anything that was original... save for two short stretches of straight.

 

But I also remember some good slipstreaming duels on the circuit in the chicane era.

[doc knutsen]

My suggestion -  we stop holding  Grands Prix races  at terrible circuits in unsavoury countries with no racing heritage (you can guess which ones ). Instead , we create new venues in countries where there is a real passion for the sport, and which are  often the home place for successful drivers . 

 

So let's cash in Abu Dhabi (and the rest ) and have new GPs in Scandinavia , which must deserve at least two , to be held in Sweden and Denmark  in alternate years  . And , of course an annual Midnight Sun race in northern Finland - eat you heart out Singapore . Add in New Zealand , Colombia and South Africa .

 

Let's see some new circuits at countries which actually deserve them, rather than just pay for them.- so there's the brief !

Out of interest, Norway does have a pretty good circuit in the North, close to the city of Mo i Rana and certainly well within the range of the Midnight Sun concept  It is but 9 miles south of the  Arctic Circle, and known as Arctic Circle Raceway. The circuit was built with Goverment funding and opened in 1995, so it is quite well up to modern safety standards. The circuit was meant to provide the district with a new focus of interest and generate jobs, but it has been used mainly for motor cycle racing . The track is 3.7 kms long and track width is 11 to 13 meters.  I have never raced there, but those who have, give the track top marks. Unfortunately, it is situated a vast distance from any major centre of population, and although the Swedish Touring Car Championship has visited a few times, the travel logistics make it difficult for self-financed racers to contemplate going there. It is some 1000kms from Oslo, and the roads are not conductive to rapid progress for a race truck. Sixteen hours or so on the road to get there from Oslo is a long way...particularly as most week-end racers have to be back at work Monday morning!  But it is a wonderful region to visit, and the people are very friendly and enthusiastic.

Edited by doc knutsen, 12 June 2020 - 12:09.

[Ray Bell]

That's an interesting looking circuit...

 

And a miniature version inside it for go-karts by the look of things, as well as what looks like a couple of scrambles tracks.

[Hati]

For interest's sake, here's Oscar's map of the original circuit:

 

https://1.bp.blogspo...im_38_63Fsm.png

 

It was by no means inspiring, but that's what it was before the autobahn came through in the early sixties.

According to track databases that is second version aka first redesign, here's the original that was used from -32 to -37:

 

http://theracingline...enheim1929.html

[edit] picture doesn't seem to work properly but at least link seems to point to right page.

Edited by Hati, 12 June 2020 - 19:53.

[Ray Bell]

So we're on with a re-design of a modified emaciation of a forced alteration of a semi-original continuation?

 

With perhaps 400m of the original path still used?

 

That original one you point up is unbelievable...

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Ray Bell, 12 June 2020 - 23:16.

[LittleChris]

Hati is right.  The version of Hockenheim with the twiddly bits in the stadium was the 3rd iteration 

Edited by LittleChris, 12 June 2020 - 23:33.

[Ray Bell]

With the chicanes was the fourth (the 'modified emaciation')...

 

The present mess is the re-design of that.

[Hati]

 

http://theracingline...enheim1929.html

If you didn't notice there are links to other iterations under the picture, according to them current track is 9th version. And I hadn't noticed earlier that there are also some proposed layouts too, under -82 to -89, -94 to -01 and present sections.

 

[edit] And if someone wants to look some other circuit from there the link that has navigation parts helps.

http://theracingline...racingcircuits/

Edited by Hati, 13 June 2020 - 06:08.

[Ray Bell]

All interesting...

 

But slight movement and tightening of chicanes don't make much difference, and none at all to character.

 

Thanks for explaining all of that. I looked at some others, there are mistakes there of course, and some are pretty useless.

[Hati]

there are mistakes there of course, and some are pretty useless.

And I'm pretty sure that site has been abandoned since 2005 so there will be no updates or corrections anymore but it's most complete list of tracks around the world I'm aware of so I'll be returning to it as long as it stays online. There was another similar once that I think I liked more but it has vanished long ago.

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, it looked like nothing was new on it for a long time...

 

Not bad with the way it shows variations of the circuits, but a bit bland in the way it's drawn.

 

Oscar's site is coming up well, though. But he does such a good job that it has to take a long time to get it all done.

[ozpata]