130 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

Why?

If a driver has tested positive, then according to UK Test & Trace guidelines, anyone who they have come in close contact with should self isolate (at home) for 14 days. A bit tricky if, like most of the marshals at Silverstone, they are a considerable distance from home.

I would have thought that anyone approaching the car/driver should be warned of that fact and can make choices as to what they will do, hopefully that will avoid them consequently having to self isolate.

Having read through the details on the links in the opening post, there does, as usual, seem to be a lack of details as to how the FIA/Liberty plan to handle the marshalling aspect.

All I could really find was that 'marshals will operate in small family groups' so as to avoid unnecessary interaction with others.

If marshals do have to self isolate, will the organisers have a supply of substitute marshals available to replace them, and how does that fit with the 'family group' concept.

As an aside, I had a phone conversation this afternoon with an ex marshalling colleague with many years experience including at GP level.

We both agreed that we are glad we are out of it, though he said that he had recently had a letter from someone high up in the marshalling world, asking if he was considering coming out of retirement, even though he has not done any for six years.

Maybe an indication that there may be some problems getting marshals for this season - have heard anecdotal evidence that many older marshals are considering this to be a good point to 'hang up the Probans'.

Look I know marshals are important and you make a lot of good points about them, but this argument really isn't about them - if a driver tests positive he obviously shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the race track and should be taken out of the paddock immediately not to infect anyone else, be it marshals or his team members or anyone he interacts with. Plus odds are he's not in brilliant shape to race.

[ExFlagMan]

I agree, but some on here seem of the opinion that is does not matter.

 

I cannot find any definitive answer in what F1/FIA/Liberty have published about how they aim to handle this sort of situation.

 

If you were a marshal scheduled to be at a GP, would you want to know how these things will handled, before deciding if you really wanted to attend.

[noriaki]

Plus odds are he's not in brilliant shape to race.

Most studies say something like half of all covid patients are asymptomatic. Fit, young people like F1 drivers are even more likely.

However still, I agree. Filling the topic with concern and horror scenarios about *marshals catching the virus from the drivers* - an interaction that is usually 1) very brief, 2) outdoors and 3) usually has both parties wearing protective equipment - is either more than a bit self-indulgent over the issue or then completely ignorant over how the virus appears to spread. In fact, you would suppose marshals are nearly the *least* likely people in the whole event to catch it.

[Clatter]

Most studies say something like half of all covid patients are asymptomatic. Fit, young people like F1 drivers are even more likely.

However still, I agree. Filling the topic with concern and horror scenarios about *marshals catching the virus from the drivers* - an interaction that is usually 1) very brief, 2) outdoors and 3) usually has both parties wearing protective equipment - is either more than a bit self-indulgent over the issue or then completely ignorant over how the virus appears to spread. In fact, you would suppose marshals are nearly the *least* likely people in the whole event to catch it.

 

It matters not one jot if they are the least likely to catch it, there simply should not be any time where anyone involved in the event are knowingly put at risk of contact with someone who has tested positive.

[noriaki]

Of course not, but someone being foremost concerned in this situation specifically about marshals' health when in contact with a driver, would be akin to if Williams went under and soneone got foremost concerned about whether Latifi's finances would take the blow of losing his job and whether he would get any bread on the table now.

[ANF]

Most studies say something like half of all covid patients are asymptomatic. Fit, young people like F1 drivers are even more likely.

However still, I agree. Filling the topic with concern and horror scenarios about *marshals catching the virus from the drivers* - an interaction that is usually 1) very brief, 2) outdoors and 3) usually has both parties wearing protective equipment - is either more than a bit self-indulgent over the issue or then completely ignorant over how the virus appears to spread. In fact, you would suppose marshals are nearly the *least* likely people in the whole event to catch it.

Until...



Will there be reserve extrication teams in case that "family group" will have to self-isolate?

[Clatter]

Of course not, but someone being foremost concerned in this situation specifically about marshals' health when in contact with a driver, would be akin to if Williams went under and soneone got foremost concerned about whether Latifi's finances would take the blow of losing his job and whether he would get any bread on the table now.

 

No comparison whatsoever.

[ExFlagMan]

Most studies say something like half of all covid patients are asymptomatic. Fit, young people like F1 drivers are even more likely.

However still, I agree. Filling the topic with concern and horror scenarios about *marshals catching the virus from the drivers* - an interaction that is usually 1) very brief, 2) outdoors and 3) usually has both parties wearing protective equipment - is either more than a bit self-indulgent over the issue or then completely ignorant over how the virus appears to spread. In fact, you would suppose marshals are nearly the *least* likely people in the whole event to catch it.

 

Maybe you should ask aspiring F1 driver Enaam Ahmed about that aspect of it.

 

This weeks MSN has an article on him, including a pretty full description of how the virus affected him.

 

As to whether not it is 'a bit self-indulgent' to 'fill the topic with horror scenarios', I would suggest it is about time someone raised these concerns, as there appears to very little real understanding at the top level of the sport as to how conditions are for marshals at a Grand Prix, compared to how drivers/teams etc are treated. 

 

Nobody supplies hotel accommodation for the marshals at a GP, most are usually camping at the circuit - not seen any information as to how that will be handled under the current conditions, especially if they are categorised as 'inside the bubble' and have to remain at the circuit for the whole duration of the double race period - pretty difficult to ensure social distancing on a campsite for several 100 marshals for that the whole period of time, especially in the down-time period between the races.

 

The new MSUK regulations for marshalling to resume motorsport in the UK require that every post chief has to record and report every instance of marshals interaction  

 

• A record to be maintained of personnel working in close proximity or enclosed areas

 

 

Will the testing data from the on-circuit system be input to the national 'Test & Trace'/'Track & Trace' programs, as I would suggest this could cause real problems if a driver tested positive is allowed out onto the circuit and then has an accident during the meetings.

 

Might potentially cause quite a few people to be unable to 'put bread on the table' if they are forced to self-isolate for 14 days after the event.

[noriaki]

Maybe you should ask aspiring F1 driver Enaam Ahmed about that aspect of it.

This weeks MSN has an article on him, including a pretty full description of how the virus affected him.

As to whether not it is 'a bit self-indulgent' to 'fill the topic with horror scenarios', I would suggest it is about time someone raised these concerns, as there appears to very little real understanding at the top level of the sport as to how conditions are for marshals at a Grand Prix, compared to how drivers/teams etc are treated.

Nobody supplies hotel accommodation for the marshals at a GP, most are usually camping at the circuit - not seen any information as to how that will be handled under the current conditions, especially if they are categorised as 'inside the bubble' and have to remain at the circuit for the whole duration of the double race period - pretty difficult to ensure social distancing on a campsite for several 100 marshals for that the whole period of time, especially in the down-time period between the races.

The new MSUK regulations for marshalling to resume motorsport in the UK require that every post chief has to record and report every instance of marshals interaction


Will the testing data from the on-circuit system be input to the national 'Test & Trace'/'Track & Trace' programs, as I would suggest this could cause real problems if a driver tested positive is allowed out onto the circuit and then has an accident during the meetings.

Might potentially cause quite a few people to be unable to 'put bread on the table' if they are forced to self-isolate for 14 days after the event.

If one person suffered the symptoms, that doesn't mean everybody will. Frankly I cannot believe this needs explaining. https://www.healthli...ware-have-virus
https://www.theguard...ad-be-contained
https://time.com/584...c-transmission/

And yes, marshals are camping separate from the F1 bubble. Which is very good for them.

In the non-scenario that a driver would be racing despite being infected - those who are inside the bubble, spending extended periods of time with the drivers *indoors*, in the hotels and in the paddock - it is them who are gonna be at a great risk of of getting infected, too. Those people involves mechanics, journalists, chefs, hotel staff, personal trainers - hell, pretty much else working inside the paddock, most of whom that aren't exactly swimming in wealth either. I would be heavily concerned about the well being of them.

In contrast, marshals are only gonna be at an immediate risk of getting infected by a driver - the very scenario you presented - if they happen to need to extract a driver who has the virus and is also spreading it out of the car, while not wearing protective gear of their own, and touch the driver's head or inhale his breathing. As far as I know, that isn't all that usual to occur for your average marshal during a race weekend.

[ExFlagMan]

If one person suffered the symptoms, that doesn't mean everybody will. Frankly I cannot believe this needs explaining. 

 

Isn't it the ones who have the virus but are not showing the symptoms you have to worry about?

 

 

 

And yes, marshals are camping separate from the F1 bubble. Which is very good for them.

 

 

For many marshals attending the BGP, it is the social side of the camping that is one of the main attractions - as somebody once said 'The GP is a good party somewhat spoilt by periods of standing around hoping to occasionally see some racing'.

 

Take away the social side and it become much less attractive, especially if you have to stay on-site for 11-12 days with nothing to do between the two weekend.

 

If you are not required to stay on site between the two races then the travel costs are doubled - many marshals already share cars and tents etc, to reduce the costs of the weekend, especially if they have to travel long distances.

 

None of this helps with social distancing, so maybe it is the drivers who have to worry about getting infected by contact with the marshals.

 

 

 

In the non-scenario that a driver would be racing despite being infected

 

It seems to me that many posters on this thread are convinced a positive test should not restrict them from driving.

 

 

 

In the non-scenario that a driver would be racing despite being infected - those who are inside the bubble, spending extended periods of time with the drivers *indoors*, in the hotels and in the paddock - it is them who are gonna be at a great risk of of getting infected, too. Those people involves mechanics, journalists, chefs, hotel staff, personal trainers - hell, pretty much else working inside the paddock, most of whom that aren't exactly swimming in wealth either. I would be heavily concerned about the well being of them.
 

 

Are pit and paddock marshals considered to be inside or outside the bubble?

 

If inside then are they allowed to camp on the same site as the rest of the marshals?

 

If they are required to be separate then it might dissuade quite a few marshals from attending, given that many of the pit/paddock marshals are spouses of marshals out on circuit. 

 

 

 

In contrast, marshals are only gonna be at an immediate risk of getting infected by a driver - the very scenario you presented - if they happen to need to extract a driver who has the virus and is also spreading it out of the car, while not wearing protective gear of their own, and touch the driver's head or inhale his breathing. As far as I know, that isn't all that usual to occur for your average marshal during a race weekend.

 

I would suggest that it is those few occasions that they do occur that the sport has to worry about - when the 'big one' happens it would not look very good to the average TV viewer if the marshals left a driver in a upturned or burning car and waited for a rescue unit etc to attend.

 

According to the current MSUK regulations, a track marshal is only allowed to approach a car to check that the driver can give them a 'thumbs-up' to indicate they are OK - everything else has to be done by an intervention vehicle - gonna need a lot more rescue units to reduce the wait for assistance or very long SC/VSC periods, which should go down well on here.

 

From the video that ANF posted, it seems almost impossible for the unit crew to avoid the possibility of transmission, even with PPE - the wearing of which I would suggest might make their job even more difficult - didn't look like there would be enough space for them to do the job if they were wearing full face visors.

[BRG]

From the video that ANF posted, it seems almost impossible for the unit crew to avoid the possibility of transmission, even with PPE - the wearing of which I would suggest might make their job even more difficult - didn't look like there would be enough space for them to do the job if they were wearing full face visors.

Just a thought - the PPE to be used by marshals and - even more importantly - by the intervention crews, is it fireproof?  If I am fighting a fire, I don't really want visors, masks etc melting onto me or worse still, catching fire themselves.

[pdac]

I think there are lots of things that have already been sorted out or (in my opinion) have not been thought about and will probably not be thought about until it's too late. In a month we will see whether it works or not. I see one of these things happening:

 

1. Everyone will turn up in Austria, everything will run according to the detailed plans that they have put in place, and it will all go smoothly

2. A few days before the event, there will be a mad panic when they realise that there are things they have not sorted out and they will be forced to call off the event

3. Everyone will turn up and they will realise that things are not in place. Then we will have the same thing as Australia - will it happen, won't it happen ...

 

Anyway, we will find out soon.

Edited by pdac, 06 June 2020 - 10:58.

[ExFlagMan]

Just a thought - the PPE to be used by marshals and - even more importantly - by the intervention crews, is it fireproof?  If I am fighting a fire, I don't really want visors, masks etc melting onto me or worse still, catching fire themselves.

 

Liberty will probably have bought a job lot of the Turkish stuff rejected by the NHS.

 

I am not sure that Proban face masks would be very effective against the virus.

[Risil]

I think there are lots of things that have already been sorted out or (in my opinion) have not been thought about and will probably not be thought about until it's too late. In a month we will see whether it works or not. I see one of these things happening:
 
1. Everyone will turn up in Austria, everything will run according to the detailed plans that they have put in place, and it will all go smoothly
2. A few days before the event, there will be a mad panic when they realise that there are things they have not sorted out and they will be forced to call off the event
3. Everyone will turn up and they will realise that things are not in place. Then we will have the same thing as Australia - will it happen, won't it happen ...
 
Anyway, we will find out soon.

 

I suppose one thing that's worth pointing out is that NASCAR have managed to get their season started again, minus fans and with social distancing procedures in place, without the whole thing falling apart. Indycar looks set to do the same. F1 is set up a little differently but now they're restricting themselves to European races, they're transporting a similar amounts of goods and people around a similar sized (or smaller) landmass. That's not to say F1 will pull this off, but as an unaffected bystander I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

[pdac]

Liberty will probably have bought a job lot of the Turkish stuff rejected by the NHS.

 

I am not sure that Proban face masks would be very effective against the virus.

 

They've probably recruited a job lot of Turkish marshals too.

[Chillimeister]

I think there are lots of things that have already been sorted out or (in my opinion) have not been thought about and will probably not be thought about until it's too late. In a month we will see whether it works or not. I see one of these things happening:

 

1. Everyone will turn up in Austria, everything will run according to the detailed plans that they have put in place, and it will all go smoothly

2. A few days before the event, there will be a mad panic when they realise that there are things they have not sorted out and they will be forced to call off the event

3. Everyone will turn up and they will realise that things are not in place. Then we will have the same thing as Australia - will it happen, won't it happen ...

 

Anyway, we will find out soon.

 

We should have a little vote on this. I'll go for 3.

[Marklar]

I think there are lots of things that have already been sorted out or (in my opinion) have not been thought about and will probably not be thought about until it's too late. In a month we will see whether it works or not. I see one of these things happening:

 

1. Everyone will turn up in Austria, everything will run according to the detailed plans that they have put in place, and it will all go smoothly

2. A few days before the event, there will be a mad panic when they realise that there are things they have not sorted out and they will be forced to call off the event

3. Everyone will turn up and they will realise that things are not in place. Then we will have the same thing as Australia - will it happen, won't it happen ...

 

Anyway, we will find out soon.

3 and 2 will not happen. I get that you all think that F1/Liberty are incompetent and dont think of certain scenarios, but the health authorities dont approve of Events that dont have any scenario (in theory!) covered, even if they didnt published all their plans to the press. We also live in a very different world than in march, where no restrictions were in place.

I'm not saying that 1 will happen either though. It could be of course that you have a positive test and everyone will question why they are there, but this is again very different to Melbourne, where you had a high uncertainty on the spread since no testing was done. In this case now we will have done plenty of testing and even if there are some false-negatives social distance measures will have ensured that the virus cant spread much if at all until they test again (they test every two days AFAIK).

 

The mistake many of you do is to assume that the Event will be called off if only one thing doesnt go according to plan.

Edited by Marklar, 06 June 2020 - 12:35.

[ARTGP]

3 and 2 will not happen. I get that you all think that F1/Liberty are incompetent and dont think of certain scenarios, but the health authorities dont approve of Events that dont have any scenario (in theory!) covered, even if they didnt published all their plans to the press. We also live in a very different world than in march, where no restrictions were in place.

 

 

 

That's pretty naive....The truth is we've never dealt with something like this before and health officials can be influenced by money, politics, hostile governments, relations to inept government officials, appointed by inept government officials and so on....Its debatable that the appointed health "authorities" are truly concerned with the health in some countries.

 

The joint actions and decisions in the months of Nov 2019-May 2020 of governments and "health authorities" in China, USA, Brazil show that whether it was their intention, or not, the system (of government and health authorities working together to make decisions) has led to poorer outcomes than the outcomes that could have been obtained if governments seriously cared about health and didn't consider the downfall of the economy. So I don't know why you think it's suddenly paramount to believe that the health authorities actually have everything so perfectly planned out, and are not just being pressured by government and desperate economic times to open things back up.  These "authorities" are never punished or held accountable for their crimes against humanity anyway so it's not surprising if somebody approves an event that has no business going forward. None of these "officials" are going to jail no matter how many people have died, and will die as a result of their actions.

Edited by ARTGP, 06 June 2020 - 13:12.

[Marklar]

That's pretty naive....The truth is we've never dealt with something like this before and health officials can be influenced by money, politics, hostile governments, relations to inept government officials, appointed by inept government officials and so on....

 

The joint actions and decisions in the months of Nov 2019-May 2020 of governments and "health authorities" in China, USA, Brazil show that whether it was their intention, or not, the system (of government and health authorities working together to make decisions) has led to poorer outcomes than the outcomes that could have been obtained if governments seriously cared about health and didn't consider the downfall of the economy. So I don't know why you think it's suddenly paramount to believe that the health authorities actually have everything so perfectly planned out, and are not just being pressured by government and desperate economic times to open things back up.  

I dont think it's naive at all.

If it's clear that F1 hasnt organized certain things in a way that it meets the requirement then they would be asked to adjust them. I realize that you will never manage to plan out everything perfectly, something is likely going to go wrong, because likely someone will do something wrong (look at how some Bundesliga players ignored the quarantine rules for instance). But the things some here suggested are pretty huge things like "forgetting" marshals. Maybe Brazil would wave something like this through, but do you honestly think that all Austria, Great Britain, Spain, Hungary, Italy and Belgium would?

F1 also has the huge advantage that they can learn from how other sports have dealed with this.

Edited by Marklar, 06 June 2020 - 13:12.

[ARTGP]

I'm so sorry that I am a serial  post editor Marklar .  I can't help it 

[Chillimeister]

Personally I wouldn't describe Liberty/F1 as incompetent - overconfident in their abilities to organise and control the situation around the organisation of the altered race programme, definitely.

[ARTGP]

Personally I wouldn't describe Liberty/F1 as incompetent - overconfident in their abilities to organise and control the situation around the organisation of the altered race programme, definitely.

 

Yes. Organizing an F1 championship is not trivial and deserves credit. It's a job few could do. I guess what is meant is that people that are competent on average can occasionally make incompetent decisions.

Edited by ARTGP, 06 June 2020 - 13:17.

[Marklar]

I'm so sorry that I am a serial  post editor Marklar .  I can't help it 

no worries, I'm guilty of the same crime 

 

 

Personally I wouldn't describe Liberty/F1 as incompetent - overconfident in their abilities to organise and control the situation around the organisation of the altered race programme, definitely.

 

Definetly, organizing an F1 championship is not trivial deserves, a job few could do and deserves credit. I guess what is meant their is that people that are on average competent people can occasionally make incompetent decisions

The situation is also pretty impossible for anyone to look good IMO.

Even if everything goes "well" you will have people saying that it should have never happen regardless, and that everything is done for the sake of the money, even if it's currently more for the sake of survival. And if it doesnt go well, well, I dont need to say what happens then.

Edited by Marklar, 06 June 2020 - 13:20.

[Chillimeister]

Fair point. We need this to be a success to ensure the ongoing survival of the series and the teams in it. Liberty saves its very substantial investment in the process 

[pdac]

3 and 2 will not happen. I get that you all think that F1/Liberty are incompetent and dont think of certain scenarios, but the health authorities dont approve of Events that dont have any scenario (in theory!) covered, even if they didnt published all their plans to the press. We also live in a very different world than in march, where no restrictions were in place.

I'm not saying that 1 will happen either though. It could be of course that you have a positive test and everyone will question why they are there, but this is again very different to Melbourne, where you had a high uncertainty on the spread since no testing was done. In this case now we will have done plenty of testing and even if there are some false-negatives social distance measures will have ensured that the virus cant spread much if at all until they test again (they test every two days AFAIK).

 

The mistake many of you do is to assume that the Event will be called off if only one thing doesnt go according to plan.

 

I was including practical issues with these, like arranging marshals, not just covid-19 related problems. I'm sure the details of how people will be isolated have been explained to the authorities and they are satisfied with those arrangements.

[MarshalMike]

I am not sure that Proban face masks would be very effective against the virus.

 

I was informed by email today that a fireproof balaclava is not a suitable replacement for a face mask.

[HeadFirst]

I am pretty sure that Liberty can pull off a race, even under Covid19 conditions. The concern I have is that they must deal with governments in order to do so, and I don't trust governments, make that any government, to do things in a rational, consistent manner. Maybe I have been poisoned by watching the way things have been handled in the USA, but I can see politicians changing their minds (and therefore the requirements to hold a race) faster than the weather changes in the Rockies.

Edited by HeadFirst, 06 June 2020 - 20:42.

[FirstnameLastname]

This is the year to be a reserve driver...

[Kalmake]

This is the year to be a reserve driver...

Overview of reserves https://www.motorspo...-tests/4801451/

 

Haas should be notified that neither of their reserves is actually allowed to race in F1. https://forums.autos...licence-points/

 

Hulk might have to reserve for three teams

[Risil]

I would expect the FIA to waive its superlicence requirements in the event of infections among drivers and supplying alternative names becomes difficult. There's no real reason why any of those names couldn't take part in a Grand Prix. Does anyone really think Guanyu Zhou or Louis Deletraz would be a danger to anyone?

[Kalmake]

I believe they are called reserves to please their sponsors. Haas would probably get someone from Ferrari camp or Hulk.

 

There are enough eligible drivers. Before it gets so bad that we need any of these fake reserves, the whole thing would have been called off.