31 replies to this topic

[Philip Whiteman]

... or is it? Seeing it through the window, it looked like the real thing, but an image seen elsewhere shows a car on display with no Mercedes star - so is it one of the Wheatcroft replicas?

[Tim Murray]

Karl Ludvigsen has suggested on Twitter that it’s probably a replica.

[Philip Whiteman]

The grille is the wrong shape - just as in the images of the Wheatcroft replica posted some time ago

[Philip Whiteman]

And exquisitely well made for sure, which makes the not-quite-right bodywork all the more baffling

[jtremlett]

I don't think I'd want to leave anything anywhere near there, whatever it was, given their financial state and all the things they've got up to over the years.

[Lola5000]

I had dealings with them 7 or 8 years ago bought the car imported it to Australia ,they would never give me the VAT breakdown i asked for ..............scum.

[dolomite]

Presumably this is one of the replicas that Mercedes stipulated must not carry the three pointed star logo. Perhaps the odd shaped grill was also a requirement to further visually distinguish it from the real thing.

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

How many replicas are there?

[arttidesco]

Saw this at Olympia a few months back, looks convincingly period authentic..... 

 

 

...... but was something missing like hullaballo as to what it really is ....

 

 

..... so assummed it was a replica, no doubt very expensive to build and one would imagine great fun to drive especially if one owns a circuit to drive it on ;-)

Edited by arttidesco, 05 June 2020 - 17:54.

[opplock]

"no doubt very expensive to build"

 

On a visit with the Lotus 7 Club I saw one under construction. Yours for a mere £1.5 million I was told. If it wasn't for a serious shortage of 0s I'd have bought it.  

[Pullman99]

"no doubt very expensive to build"

 

On a visit with the Lotus 7 Club I saw one under construction. Yours for a mere £1.5 million I was told. If it wasn't for a serious shortage of 0s I'd have bought it.  

 

I posted this on the 8th May on the Richard Seaman thread.

 

"Just wondered if anyone knows the present circumstances surrounding the recent announcement that Coys had gone into administration and what  the story is behind the "exact replica" 1937 Merecedes-Benz W125 that, I believe, Richard Williams visited at their premises a while ago.   The W125 was also exhibited at the London Classic Car Show at Olympia this year"

 

Replied to by Opplock the same date:

 

"Crossthwaite & Gardiner built several W125 toolroom replicas. I saw an incomplete one when I visited their premises in 2014. Price was £1.5m from memory. My recollection is that BCE commissioned the first one and that Mercedes Benz stipulated they must not use their name."

 

As asked above by Phantom, Is there a list of "replica / reproduction" cars out there anywhere?

 

Great pics Arttidesco, BTW!

 

Edited by Pullman99, 06 June 2020 - 05:58.

[Alan Cox]

Missing the Mercedes three-pointed star from the nose. i recall that the Wheatcrodts were instructed to remove them from their C & G replica

[Roger Clark]

In contrast to Daimler, Audi permitted, if not encouraged, the use of their four linked rings on the facsimile Auto-Unions. I suppose that one company wanted to protect their heritage while the other wanted to enhance theirs.

The shape of the windshield on this car is i,nteresting. The W125 usually (I can’t say whether it was always) had a straight top edge.. this one appears to be curved. Von Brauchitsch apparently preferred a taller windshield than the other drivers so this may be modelled on one of his.

[Allan Lupton]

In contrast to Daimler, Audi permitted, if not encouraged, the use of their four linked rings on the facsimile Auto-Unions.  I suppose that one company wanted to protect their heritage while the other wanted to enhance theirs. . 

Audi seems to have appropriated the A-U's four rings and take all the ownership steps they can. Must be succeeding as the young public now seems to "know" the rings as Audi to the extent that I've seen references to the Audi GP cars of the 1930s.

Of course, here we all know that Audi was/is the fourth and last of the four rings
 

[opplock]

The crucial difference was that the C&G Auto Unions were commissioned by Audi.  

[D-Type]

In contrast to Daimler, Audi permitted, if not encouraged, the use of their four linked rings on the facsimile Auto-Unions. I suppose that one company wanted to protect their heritage while the other wanted to enhance theirs.
 

"Enhance" - how very diplomatic when "create" might be more appropriate given the tenuous link between today's Audi company and the prewar Audi / Auto-Union company.
Notice the apparent gentlemen's[?] agreement that Audi don't make an equally justified claim to the "Silver Arrows" title.

[Philip Whiteman]

Actually, the whole front end of the replica looks rather pointed, next to the bluff front end of the real thing (and I have always wondered if William Lyons borrowed the Mercedes grille shape for the 3.4 Mk1 and MkII Jaguars)

[Derwent Motorsport]

So why did they get the replica wrong then?  Most replicas are almost perfect these days and if you were paying that sort of sum you would want it perfect?

[MartLgn]

I understand the concerns about provenance and authenticity, but who among us if they could find £1.5 million down the back of the sofa would be able to resist the chance to own a replica of the most insane Grand Prix car ever built?  It would  make a weapons grade track day car!

[cpbell]

I must admit I'm unconvinced that the front of the replica is that far out - compare the front-on shot with this view of one of the originals being driven by the great Lang, presumably at the 1977 Historic event at the 'Ring:

 

https://en.wikipedia...B-W125-1977.jpg

[Odseybod]

And Colin Crabbe in his Mercedes-Mercedes at Oulton in 1972 ...

 

 

 

[BRG]

The front end is definitely a little different to the tribute band version.  The grilles are slightly different shapes and the bulge each side is a bit different too.

[arttidesco]

Proving to be a bit of an itch to scratch....

 

 

The genuine W125 appears somewhat more muscular IMHO....

 

 

more bulk appears particularly evident from the rear 

[Odseybod]

I can understand the thinking behind the missing badge but it does seem odd that C&G - highly skilled people that they are - should make an 'almost exact' W125 replica (which I know is akin to something being 'almost unique') - unless they were denied access to the Real Thing during its creation? Maybe it's the angle and/or lighting but the rear view certainly does look very different.

Edited by Odseybod, 11 June 2020 - 16:30.

[Tom Glowacki]

I'd expect that if we were looking at similar views of all of the W125s, we might be finding similar discrepancies amongst them.

[Tim Murray]

I wonder how much help, if any, C & G received from Daimler-Benz in constructing these replicas. I’m aware of other cases where DB have been somewhat uncooperative when not employed to perform the rebuild/restoration themselves.

[opplock]

I wonder how much help, if any, C & G received from Daimler-Benz in constructing these replicas. I’m aware of other cases where DB have been somewhat uncooperative when not employed to perform the rebuild/restoration themselves.

 

Given C&G's relationship with Audi I think the answer is nil. The impression I got from an admittedly short discussion about the cars at C&G was that Daimler-Benz couldn't stop them making replicas but told them not to use the MB star. Perhaps other subtle differences were incorporated after seeking legal advice.   

[Roger Clark]

I'd expect that if we were looking at similar views of all of the W125s, we might be finding similar discrepancies amongst them.

This is quite true.  It is always a mistake to say that an old racing car looked like this or that because they were handmade and always slightly different. Louis Sugahara's book Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Racing Cars contains illustrations of different radiator grills on W125s.  I don't think that any looked quite like this though.

[JacnGille]

This is quite true.  It is always a mistake to say that an old racing car looked like this or that because they were handmade and always slightly different. 

What is the old joke?

"Hey Joe/Hans/Etc, which way did we put the tail lights yesterday? Up and down or sideways?

[Nick Wa]

Not only hand made differences but I suspect  then as now the basic design evolved over the season so the "skin" is covering a slightly different skeleton. Also from March 'till October that skin will no doubt have been dented and bent a few times. The cars did not race in just a few selected Grand Epreuve but showed the "flag" for The Reich's superiority all over far flung corners of Europe.

[ChrisJson]

I saw a W125 at Cité de l'Automobile in Mulhouse last year. No star so I assume that also is a copy?

 

Christer

[Tom Glowacki]

This thread prompted a vague recollection of an article about these cars.  As Yogi Berra once said: “deja vu all over again”.  I pawed through my stash of modeling reference material and came up with a track test article by Tony Dron in the February 2012 issue of Octane.

 

The article discusses plans to build five cars, the fifth being the streamliner for Wheatcroft.  Two were apparently complete by the time of the track test.  In light of the comments in this thread, there are a few relevant statements:

 

“Understandably, the senior people in charge of Mercedes-Benz in Stuttgart today were slightly puzzled when they heard what the crazy English were up to and I can’t say I blame them for electing to maintain a dignified silence!  (Though see News p20 for more on that- ed.)"  I did not save that page of Octane.

 

“Even the little badge in the centre of the steering wheel is correct; actually of Mercedes-Benz lapel badge as worn in the 1930s.  An original one was bought at a recent Essen show for £200, and a batch of perfect reproduction then made by a specialist manufacturer.”  The pictures accompanying the track test show the M-B star on the nose.

 

“Reproducing the bodies, which are made from 18-gauge aluminum sheet by Roach Manufacturing, caused some debate as there were considerable variation in the noses of the original cars. . . The Roach/C&G nose looks to me as if it could be like the W125 seen in the pits at the 1937 Eifelrennen and photographed by George Monkhouse for his book Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Racing 1934-1955, but the picture isn’t sharp enough to be sure.”

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 13 June 2020 - 15:15.