1994 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

F1, the FIA, and the manufacturers are beginning to have talks about what the 2026 engine formula should look like, with an eye toward an emphasis on sustainable fuels and on attracting new manufacturers. They really need to get this one right. So, what will it look like? 

 

Brawn: No new manufacturers expected to join F1 before 2026 https://www.motorspo...-rules/4802878/

 

...

 

The hope is that a reset with a new PU specification will encourage other suppliers to start planning to join Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda in the long term.

 

“It’s not that far away when you think you’ve got to do a new engine,” Brawn told Motorsport.com. “You will have to be starting your engine design in 18 months if you want to get one for then.

 

“So with the FIA and with the manufacturers we’re now looking at what the next powertrain should look like, and I think that’s the opportunity to get new manufacturers involved, and we need to find a design specification to do that. We’re looking at what we feel is a relevant powertrain for that period.

 

“No one is going to invest in the current engine, because it’s going to finish in that time, and it’s a very substantial investment to get up to speed.”

 

Although there is no urgency to fully define the new regulations, experts from both F1 and the FIA have already begun to assess ideas.

 

“Funnily enough we were having a discussion about it this morning,” said Brawn. “Pat Symonds, Nick Hayes, Gilles Simon, Fabrice Lom, Nikolas Tombazis, we’re all working on what the powertrain should look like for the future. We know what the objectives are – relevance, the economics of it, and it’s got to be a good racing engine. We know what we want to achieve, we just haven’t defined yet what that will be. We continue to believe that there are alternative approaches to solutions to the future. We don’t think there’s one solution.

 

“We believe we can occupy a very relevant space. Sustainable fuels are a big thing for us, because whatever engine we have, that will be a major part of it. With some of our partners we’re now working on a strategy for introducing sustainable fuels into F1. So that will be a big element for the future. But really for the moment I don’t have an idea on how the engine should look.”

 

Asked if there would be a revision to the current rules or a more radical shift he said: “I think for the moment we feel it will retain similar technologies to what we have now.

 

“There are a number of radical engines on the horizon, but we don’t think they are well enough established that in 18 months you can commit yourself to them.”

Edited by AustinF1, 10 June 2020 - 04:31.

[Fatgadget]

2026 an awfully long time away the way technology is evolving these days. Some unorthodox thinking outside the box like never before to look forward to I imagine!

[Beri]

As long as they are really taking the economics seriously, then it would be a good thing. Because in terms of a good racing engine, the new format has to replace one heck of a good engine. The two stroke option that was named some months back is something Id like to see. But most ideally; hydrogen engines. Not that they will come in 2026 as stated by Brawn that they will retain current technologies. But one may dream.

[SenorSjon]

50x50x50 cm FTL drive? You have to be ambitious.

[Danyy]

Electric is not the future. Whatever path F1 takes will advance that technology passed electric cars which is what I want to see.

[Beri]

Electric is not the future. Whatever path F1 takes will advance that technology passed electric cars which is what I want to see.

 

Electric is the future for the day to day commute. Wether if it is with static electricity from batteries or with a fuel cell is a very interesting thing to watch the upcoming years to come. But embrace electric propulsion on your car, because within 20 years from now, no manufacturer of simple day to day cars will produce an ICE anymore. 

 

That being said, I can see a niche market for show cars, old cars, special cars like hypercars and such and even for motorsports. Yet the problem is in F1; they want it to be relevant to the day to day commute. And that is something Im not fond off and do think will complicate things even more. Because F1 going electric, that I cant see happening.

Edited by Beri, 10 June 2020 - 09:05.

[Danyy]

Electric is the future for the day to day commute. Wether if it is with static electricity from batteries or with a fuel cell is a very interesting thing to watch the upcoming years to come. But embrace electric propulsion on your car, because within 20 years from now, no manufacturer of simple day to day cars will produce an ICE anymore.

That being said, I can see a niche market for show cars, old cars, special cars like hypercars and such and even for motorsports. Yet the problem is in F1; they want it to be relevant to the day to day commute. And that is something Im not fond off and do think will complicate things even more. Because F1 going electric, that I cant see happening.

If electric was the future they wouldn’t be looking for alternative solutions. ICE will continue to thrive since F1 is backing it and developing sustainable fuels. A lot of people don’t even have driveways and won’t have any way to charge a car so expecting people to suddenly be driving around in electric cars in 20 years is just fantasy.

[KWSN - DSM]

I expect them to botch it up as they did with the current engine. It should be a fairly simple hybrid, so that is not what they will come up with.

 

[Beri]

If electric was the future they wouldn’t be looking for alternative solutions. ICE will continue to thrive since F1 is backing it and developing sustainable fuels. A lot of people don’t even have driveways and won’t have any way to charge a car so expecting people to suddenly be driving around in electric cars in 20 years is just fantasy.

 

F1 is right now by no means representative to the current market for everyday use either. And by your reasoning everyone should have a petrol station in their garden as well. Techniques are changing and getting better. Charging is becoming more accessible and faster all the time. The range for an electric car could go easily as far as 300 miles per charge. Which is way more than the average Joe has to use on a daily basis. The first Prius was launched in 1997-ish and we have come a long way since. Electric is the future, no denying in that. But that isnt going to happen for F1. In F1 there will be an ICE for the 2026 engine format. But it isnt going to be a format that goes "beyond" electric propulsion. Time is too short for this to archieve and the technique is not ready yet as manufacturers around the world are still circling around their electric propulsion by ancient battery powered techniques. When hydrogen takes flight, thats when it becomes interesting. And even more so; if a completely new technique emerges. Something we dont know anything about (yet). But as said; thts not going to happen for the 2026 engine formula.

[Ben1445]

Recently, my preferred solution has been tending towards something along the lines of the following: 

 

- Must be a long term plan with a minimum of a 10 year technical roadmap as to where the regulations will be heading after launch

- Cap the power and fuel use of the ICE and allow use of a control spec unit (like BTCC does with their TOCA engine) offered cheaply to independent constructors/non-ICE PU manufacturers 

- Allow manufacturers to use a production based ICE as long as it does not exceed the performance cap and restrict development of it with annual homologation 

- Have a separate, high power electric powertrain system with both front and rear axel MGUs - make this area the key performance differentiator 

- As part of the technical roadmap, state how the regulations are expected to evolve year on year, encompassing a gradual reduction of fuel flow and ICE power and a gradual increase of things like battery capacity, bio-fuel fraction in the fuel blend etc. 

 

This would effectively represent the step from highly advanced mild-hybrids to a plug-in-hybrid formula and give F1 the most relevant, innovative and versatile base going into the 2030s. It would also fit with the sentiment from Ross Brawn's comments that the solution would likely retain similar technologies to what is being used now. 

Edited by Ben1445, 10 June 2020 - 10:11.

[Kalmake]

They wont be able to agree on a tech that soon. Full EV lacks performance, anything else is too unclear. Current formula will get few more years.

[Hakki069]

F1 can't go fully electric until at least 2039-2040. FE hold the exclusive licence for an electric open wheel series.

The future looks to be electric but F1 future will be be down a different route. Using alternative fuels. Hydrogen most likely I think.

Edited by Hakki069, 10 June 2020 - 10:13.

[Ben1445]

Supposedly that FE exclusivity deal includes anything where the wheels are driven by electric motors only, which in theory excludes hydrogen fuel cells and turbine generator/range extender concepts.  

 

Of course, this exclusivity deal could always be negotiated around but that could get expensive, or it could be tried in court which would be expensive and risky. 

[Hakki069]

Of course, this exclusivity deal could always be negotiated around but that could get expensive, or it could be tried in court which would be expensive and risky.

Wouldn't be worth the hassle for the FIA. A merger of F1/FE will be most likely outcome by that point electric really is taking the lead. Plus to be fair all major car manufacturers will be already be in FE. by that point even Ferrari will have to get involved.

Will be interesting to see what F1 does in 2026 with the new engine regs. But you would have to believe if electric power does become more advanced and looks the better option then F1 and FE will be considering a merger as we go into the 2030s

[KWSN - DSM]

Allow any configuration, any consumption of any consumable - Mandate you have to make available in equal specification to any team who wants one at $2 million per engine per season - Let Darwinism take over.

 

[statman]

If they continue with this stupid hybrid engine, no new manufacturer will sign up.

 

One of the biggest obstacles was the MGU-H when they were holding talks with new entrants:

 

statman, on 06 Jul 2017 - 11:50, said:

Via Dieter Rencken

- F1 wants a good show, close competition and reduced cost

- All points to a V6 1.6 with a biturbo

- They will increase the fuel flow. In that way the next engine would be still based on the current one

- Prechamber ignition stays

- MGU-H will be canned

- 13 different suppliers are interested now after yesterdays meeting: Audi, Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Cosworth, McLaren Automotive, Ilmor, plus the 4 current suppliers, plus Zytek and Magnetti.

- The 'green' aspect is not that important anymore, this is something LMP1 can do. Instead they might try to achieve this a bit over alternate fuels.

 

then:

 

Posted by statman on 06 July 2018 - 18:27

 

The engine manufacturers have made a U-turn. They do not want to do without the MGU-H in the engines from 2021 onwards and continue to negotiate with the FIA. This eliminates the entry of new manufacturers and creates a dangerous cartel.

 

FIA President Jean Todt and Formula One leaders Chase Carey and Ross Brawn can't believe what they were hearing at the latest strategy meeting in London on 4 July. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault changed course about the engine regulations for 2021 and now again on the whereabouts of the MGU-H and thus the existing engine architecture

 

The FIA ​​called for simpler and cheaper engines to cut costs and attract new manufacturers to Formula One. The complexity of the MGU-H practically excludes this. Even Porsche would come only on the basis of a stripped-down regulations. All other car companies have shown Formula One the cold shoulder.

[Clatter]

- 13 different suppliers are interested now after yesterdays meeting: Audi, Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Cosworth, McLaren Automotive, Ilmor, plus the 4 current suppliers, plus Zytek and Magnetti.

That would be more suppliers than teams currently on the grid. Even when the engines were simpler and cheaper there was no queue wanting to join the engine building club. I suspect this is just the FIA inviting people to sit round the discussion table, and should not be taken as any intention of taking things further.

Edited by Clatter, 10 June 2020 - 10:57.

[pdac]

If electric was the future they wouldn’t be looking for alternative solutions. ICE will continue to thrive since F1 is backing it and developing sustainable fuels. A lot of people don’t even have driveways and won’t have any way to charge a car so expecting people to suddenly be driving around in electric cars in 20 years is just fantasy.

 

I agree, yet this is where all the major investment is going right now. I doubt manufacturers are going to just write-off all that investment. So, regardless of how stupid it is, it's going to happen in some form. Personally, I see the only compromise being adding a small ICE to recharge batteries when an electric charging source is not available. I agree that it appears that the world is not ready for the change, but it will be forced on us because too much money has already been ploughed into this.

 

F1 should try to steer manufacturers into alternatives that can validly compete on the 'eco' front, because that's the only thing that would be able to compete when governments bring in legislation to make those EVs look attractive.

Edited by pdac, 10 June 2020 - 11:28.

[Ben1445]

There is going to be a lot of discussion about hydrogen and bio/synthetic fuels here and in F1’s direct stakeholder boardrooms, so here’s my typical problem statement:
 
Firstly, we all need to be aware that over 95% of current global hydrogen supply comes as a by-product of the fossil fuel industry (natural gas, oil and coal). 'Green hydrogen' can be created through processes such as electrolysis of water but requires renewably generated electricity as an input. Corollary is that a solution reliant on hydrogen also requires mass adoption of renewable energy if we truly wish to move away from fossil fuel sources. 
 
Biofuels derived from biomass are, in theory, carbon neutral almost by definition; plant takes carbon out of the atmoshpere, plant is turned into usable fuel, carbon gets re-released into atmosphere. However, emission considerations as a result of land use changes, farming/harvesting, transportation and processing into biofuel also need to be factored in. And that’s before you start worrying about how agriculture can support a growing population size and food production alongside biofuel production. 
 
Synthetic fuels are made from the combination of a hydrogen and carbon feedstock to be combined together to make a usable hydrocarbon. These feedstocks usually come from fossil fuel industry, but can come from a combination of ‘green hydrogen’ and biomass. This therefore shares the same issues as the two previously mentioned cases to produce as well as the extra process of energy input while converting to a new synthetic hydrocrbon. 
 
Conclusion is that there isn’t a magic bullet solution on any front. Solving the problem of how to power our transportation needs without the carbon impact being too high (short of rationing their use) is a complicated and nuanced debate which needs to take into account the entire impact. And yes, that goes for battery electric vehicles too.

[KevD]

F1 can't go fully electric until at least 2039-2040. FE hold the exclusive licence for an electric open wheel series.

The future looks to be electric but F1 future will be be down a different route. Using alternative fuels. Hydrogen most likely I think.

 

I never understood the push for hydrogen. Where exactly is the gain in that technology? It's still just an energy carrier, just like a battery. It's not like they will be burning that stuff in a combustion chamber. But as it stands now, battery technology is far more efficient (less energy needed) and is developing much faster than hydrogen fuel cel technology. It won't be that long before battery capacity crosses the full race distance barrier so no need for refuelling/recharging.

 

ICE technology won't be able to keep up with electric power dollar for dollar or pound for pound. Look at the predicted performance of the upcoming 200k Tesla Roadster for instance. 

Edited by KevD, 10 June 2020 - 11:47.

[ARTGP]

I think the rules should be such that a new manufacturer has time to prepare for 2026.  If Lamborghini, Porsche, or BMW, did an F1 engine for somebody 

Edited by ARTGP, 10 June 2020 - 11:49.

[Ben1445]

I never understood the push for hydrogen. Where exactly is the gain in that technology? It's still just an energy carrier, just like a battery. It's not like they will be burning that stuff in a combustion chamber. 

It always used to be that hydrogen fuel cell solutions offered vehicle range and refuelling times far closer to an ICE than other solutions like battery EVs. Over the last ten years, BEV ranges and recharge times have greatly improved all the while costs have fallen closer and closer to than of an ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles remain much more expensive to produce than either ICE or BEV and the range and refuel time advantage over BEV is much less than it used to be. They've now also massively fallen behind on supporting infrastructure compared to BEVs. 

 

The technology is still useful and compelling in many ways, but perhaps less so for personal car ownership than first thought. 

[SenorSjon]

I never understood the push for hydrogen. Where exactly is the gain in that technology? It's still just an energy carrier, just like a battery. It's not like they will be burning that stuff in a combustion chamber. But as it stands now, battery technology is far more efficient (less energy needed) and is developing much faster than hydrogen fuel cel technology. It won't be that long before battery capacity crosses the full race distance barrier so no need for refuelling/recharging.

 

ICE technology won't be able to keep up with electric power dollar for dollar or pound for pound. Look at the predicted performance of the upcoming 200k Tesla Roadster for instance. 

 

 

It always used to be that hydrogen fuel cell solutions offered vehicle range and refuelling times far closer to an ICE than other solutions like battery EVs. Over the last ten years, BEV ranges and recharge times have greatly improved all the while costs have fallen closer and closer to than of an ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles remain much more expensive to produce than either ICE or BEV and the range and refuel time advantage over BEV is much less than it used to be. They've now also massively fallen behind on supporting infrastructure compared to BEVs. 

 

The technology is still useful and compelling in many ways, but perhaps less so for personal car ownership than first thought. 

How do you store power for a full grid of cars to recharge between FP3 and Q? Most problems will be with the power grid in most areas when you switch to full electric for everything.

[Sterzo]

I expect them to botch it up as they did with the current engine. It should be a fairly simple hybrid, so that is not what they will come up with.

 

I for one am not going to bet against you being right.

 

My subjective preference is for a real change: a reset for F1, to secure its long term existence as a sport. Let's see it discard the road-relevance mantra, and welcome manufacturer involvement but not depend on it. Time for a budget single-spec engine, please. Let's have 25 or 30 F1 cars vying for grid places, closer racing than is traditional, and reduced speeds so we can continue racing on decent circuits.

[Kalmake]

How do you store power for a full grid of cars to recharge between FP3 and Q? Most problems will be with the power grid in most areas when you switch to full electric for everything.

Formula E uses generators powered by a bio-fuel by-product.

[KWSN - DSM]

I for one am not going to bet against you being right.

 

My subjective preference is for a real change: a reset for F1, to secure its long term existence as a sport. Let's see it discard the road-relevance mantra, and welcome manufacturer involvement but not depend on it. Time for a budget single-spec engine, please. Let's have 25 or 30 F1 cars vying for grid places, closer racing than is traditional, and reduced speeds so we can continue racing on decent circuits.

 

Amen to that.

 

I have said many times, and been disagreed with same number of times, there is zero need for a Manufacturer to have their own team, there is zero need for a manufacturer engine - I can see how Ferrari in matters of F1 is not a manufacturer, that I have been disagreed with as well.

 

I would be very happy to be proven wrong in them messing up.

 

[Ben1445]

How do you store power for a full grid of cars to recharge between FP3 and Q? Most problems will be with the power grid in most areas when you switch to full electric for everything.

For charging vehicles at a race track you're probably more likely to have on-site power generation, as FE does with the AquaFuel glycerine generators, than you are stored electrical energy. FE does manage the charging capacity to recharge their full grid of cars in about 45 mins using a 80kW charging units fed from their on-site generation. 

 

For a permanent facility, something like static hydrogen fuel cell generators or a small scale biomass combined heat and power unit that generates electricity and uses the excess heat to keep buildings warm.  You could also use the local grid at pre arranged times with the grid operators, in much the same way that F1 teams will operate their very high power requirement wind tunnels.

I would also like to point out that there is absolutely no reason that the weekend schedules would have to rigidly stay as they are should recharging capacity mean longer breaks between on-track action would be needed. 

 

In short, it's an engineering challenge but there are definitely solutions.
 

[Garndell]

As far as the hydrogen discussion goes there have been breakthroughs that improve safety, range etc including this: https://www.bbc.co.u...onment-52328786

 

That would be more suppliers than teams currently on the grid. Even when the engines were simpler and cheaper there was no queue wanting to join the engine building club. I suspect this is just the FIA inviting people to sit round the discussion table, and should not be taken as any intention of taking things further.

 

I suspect it is something to do with their 1 basic engine design for multiple FIA series (Rally, F1, etc with minor modifications/reconfigurations), it is what they wanted from the current Hybrids but that kinda went belly up a bit.  I doubt any of them will actually make F1 engines though.

[F1matt]

The stakeholders are in a tough place, 2026 is a long way off and the world could be a very different place by then. VW have stated they will not make IC engines after 2026, if they are doing that across the board for all their brands, then they won’t enter a sport that has any IC element. Maybe they should wait and see how FE pans out, if they get quicker maybe the FIA may try and merge the two sports. 

 

Electric cars outsold any other car in March and April in the UK with Tesla top and Jaguar Ipace in 2^nd; I appreciate covid 19 have skewed the figures but I find it hard to believe there will be any pure IC cars on the market by 2026 and F1 has to decide if they follow current trends or do they chase the more traditional engine builders such as Cosworth, Swindon, and build a reasonably priced off the shelf power unit?

[Vielleicht]

The stakeholders are in a tough place, 2026 is a long way off and the world could be a very different place by then. VW have stated they will not make IC engines after 2026, if they are doing that across the board for all their brands, then they won’t enter a sport that has any IC element. Maybe they should wait and see how FE pans out, if they get quicker maybe the FIA may try and merge the two sports.

I was under the impression that, alongside Daimler, they weren't going to develop new designs of ICEs after 2025 rather than stop making them altogether. Whilst this means they may well be making them within the VW group for a while, they certianly wouldn't be wanting to put loads of money towards new racing ICE designs. Working with an exisiting design to modify it for more efficient fuel use might be desirable though.

 

Electric cars outsold any other car in March and April in the UK with Tesla top and Jaguar Ipace in 2^nd; I appreciate covid 19 have skewed the figures but I find it hard to believe there will be any pure IC cars on the market by 2026 and F1 has to decide if they follow current trends or do they chase the more traditional engine builders such as Cosworth, Swindon, and build a reasonably priced off the shelf power unit?

It does appear to be a fairly common trend that EVs (and in some places hybrids) have suffered considerably less of a fall in demand during the pandemic compared to ICE vehicles.

 

Perhaps interestingly, some of the traditional engine builders are getting in on electrificaiton too. Cosworth through the BTCC Hybrid supply and Swindon recently revealed a new crate motor to break into the electic vehicle conversion/kit build market. Williams Advanced Engineering is a relatively new entity (having spun off from the race team in 2011) which is growing particular racing notoriety for supplying batteries to FE, Extreme E, ETCR, and developing EV platforms. That doesn't really counter the idea that tradtional engine builders could well continue with supplying an off the shelf ICEs to any race series which want them, I do still find it interesting.

Edited by Vielleicht, 10 June 2020 - 14:14.

[Kalmake]

Williams and McLaren have been competing for those battery supply deals. McLaren took over the FE one couple years back.

[Kalmake]

Electric cars outsold any other car in March and April in the UK with Tesla top and Jaguar Ipace in 2^nd; I appreciate covid 19 have skewed the figures but I find it hard to believe there will be any pure IC cars on the market by 2026 and F1 has to decide if they follow current trends or do they chase the more traditional engine builders such as Cosworth, Swindon, and build a reasonably priced off the shelf power unit?

An electric car model was the most sold car model. That's a dubious statistic to draw conclusions from.

[Ben1445]

An electric car model was the most sold car model. That's a dubious statistic to draw conclusions from.

Perhaps, but think about how crazy that statistic would have sounded in 2010... 

 

Also that one about EV sales being significantly more resistant than ICE sales during the pandemic is interesting. I would also highlight that Germany, the Netherlands and France have all bolstered their EV incentives (with the UK expected to follow suit) in recent weeks as part of post-Covid stimulus plans. 

[F1matt]

I am dubious of sales during the lockdown period but if you look at Tesla’s UK sales, they are impressive. At first I wondered if the fact they sell their cars online instead of the traditional showroom route have helped the figures? If so I think every major manufacturer will shift some sales to online and remove the cost of the dealership route, but Jaguar having the second best selling car (also electric) makes me dubious of this.

 

The future of road cars is looking a little clearer, SUVs for the short-term future and electric for the mid and long-term future. I look forward to reading the first headline of an unhappy punter been refused a trade in because he owns an IC car….

 

 

Rule makers need to follow the motor industry very carefully if they want to appeal to them from a sporting perspective. 

[Clatter]

Perhaps, but think about how crazy that statistic would have sounded in 2010... 

 

Also that one about EV sales being significantly more resistant than ICE sales during the pandemic is interesting. I would also highlight that Germany, the Netherlands and France have all bolstered their EV incentives (with the UK expected to follow suit) in recent weeks as part of post-Covid stimulus plans. 

 

Is there a longer lead time for buying an EV model? Could these be pre-ordered cars, but the sale only counts once in the customer hands?

[KWSN - DSM]

I am dubious of sales during the lockdown period but if you look at Tesla’s UK sales, they are impressive. At first I wondered if the fact they sell their cars online instead of the traditional showroom route have helped the figures? If so I think every major manufacturer will shift some sales to online and remove the cost of the dealership route, but Jaguar having the second best selling car (also electric) makes me dubious of this.

 

The future of road cars is looking a little clearer, SUVs for the short-term future and electric for the mid and long-term future. I look forward to reading the first headline of an unhappy punter been refused a trade in because he owns an IC car….

 

 

Rule makers need to follow the motor industry very carefully if they want to appeal to them from a sporting perspective. 

 

These guys

 

https://www.carvana.com

 

Feel as a scam, or a Ponzi scheme we can not figure out, but sold a 7 year old company car to them, they came to the office, paid by cashiers check and drover the car away - their offer was $2700 higher than what we could get anywhere else, including trading in for a new car.

 

Based on this a friend of mine sold his old car, and bought a new one - Everything went smoothly, he got the best price for his car he could find, the new one was a good deal, everything happen at his home.

 

This was back in early 2019, we have not been contacted by police investigating as an illegal scheme yet, so by appearance it seem legit all the way through.

 

[AustinF1]

F1 can't go fully electric until at least 2039-2040. FE hold the exclusive licence for an electric open wheel series.

The future looks to be electric but F1 future will be be down a different route. Using alternative fuels. Hydrogen most likely I think.

IMHO Hydrogen is the future, and Hybrid power is going to bridge the gap, however long that may be.

[AustinF1]

 

If they continue with this stupid hybrid engine, no new manufacturer will sign up.

 

One of the biggest obstacles was the MGU-H when they were holding talks with new entrants:

 

statman, on 06 Jul 2017 - 11:50, said:

Via Dieter Rencken

- F1 wants a good show, close competition and reduced cost

- All points to a V6 1.6 with a biturbo

- They will increase the fuel flow. In that way the next engine would be still based on the current one

- Prechamber ignition stays

- MGU-H will be canned

- 13 different suppliers are interested now after yesterdays meeting: Audi, Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Cosworth, McLaren Automotive, Ilmor, plus the 4 current suppliers, plus Zytek and Magnetti.

- The 'green' aspect is not that important anymore, this is something LMP1 can do. Instead they might try to achieve this a bit over alternate fuels.

 

then:

 

Posted by statman on 06 July 2018 - 18:27

 

The engine manufacturers have made a U-turn. They do not want to do without the MGU-H in the engines from 2021 onwards and continue to negotiate with the FIA. This eliminates the entry of new manufacturers and creates a dangerous cartel.

 

FIA President Jean Todt and Formula One leaders Chase Carey and Ross Brawn can't believe what they were hearing at the latest strategy meeting in London on 4 July. Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault changed course about the engine regulations for 2021 and now again on the whereabouts of the MGU-H and thus the existing engine architecture

 

The FIA ​​called for simpler and cheaper engines to cut costs and attract new manufacturers to Formula One. The complexity of the MGU-H practically excludes this. Even Porsche would come only on the basis of a stripped-down regulations. All other car companies have shown Formula One the cold shoulder.

 

Absolutely. The current manufacturers do not want new manufacturers to join the fight in F1. Of course, this puts F1 in a precarious position, which is a not unpleasant and likely fully intended side effect for the manufacturers. Not so pleasant for most fans, though.

[AustinF1]

These guys

 

https://www.carvana.com

 

Feel as a scam, or a Ponzi scheme we can not figure out, but sold a 7 year old company car to them, they came to the office, paid by cashiers check and drover the car away - their offer was $2700 higher than what we could get anywhere else, including trading in for a new car.

 

Based on this a friend of mine sold his old car, and bought a new one - Everything went smoothly, he got the best price for his car he could find, the new one was a good deal, everything happen at his home.

 

This was back in early 2019, we have not been contacted by police investigating as an illegal scheme yet, so by appearance it seem legit all the way through.

 

What wrongdoing do you suspect, if they're overpaying for used cars? Maybe I'm just misreading your post.

[AustinF1]

The stakeholders are in a tough place, 2026 is a long way off and the world could be a very different place by then. VW have stated they will not make IC engines after 2026, if they are doing that across the board for all their brands, then they won’t enter a sport that has any IC element. Maybe they should wait and see how FE pans out, if they get quicker maybe the FIA may try and merge the two sports. 

 

Electric cars outsold any other car in March and April in the UK with Tesla top and Jaguar Ipace in 2^nd; I appreciate covid 19 have skewed the figures but I find it hard to believe there will be any pure IC cars on the market by 2026 and F1 has to decide if they follow current trends or do they chase the more traditional engine builders such as Cosworth, Swindon, and build a reasonably priced off the shelf power unit?

 

An electric car model was the most sold car model. That's a dubious statistic to draw conclusions from.

 

Right. So an entire propulsion category outsold any other single model? Is that really a big deal?

[Ben1445]

IMHO Hydrogen is the future, and Hybrid power is going to bridge the gap, however long that may be.

What is your reasoning to say that hydrogen is the future? 

[AustinF1]

What is your reasoning to say that hydrogen is the future? 

It doesn't have to be hydrogen, but that's my gut feeling, based on manufacturers who seem to be really pushing forward with it ... Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. A high-efficiency range-extended electric car with onboard charging  will win out over a full plug-in imho.

 

Toyota's move to hybrid power across their biggest sellers is also a significant signal imho, re: hybrid power bridging the gap to whatever is next. It's not going away anytime soon.

Edited by AustinF1, 10 June 2020 - 16:28.

[KWSN - DSM]

What wrongdoing do you suspect, if they're overpaying for used cars? Maybe I'm just misreading your post.

 

Sound to good to be true, since they are on business it is true, just hard to look through how they make money - We just could not wrap our heads around good service, fast service, immediate confirmation and a for us to schedule when we would like them to come pick up the car and give us money.

 

Fact that it works is great, just VERY different from buying and selling a car the 'normal' way.

 

[AustinF1]

Sound to good to be true, since they are on business it is true, just hard to look through how they make money - We just could not wrap our heads around good service, fast service, immediate confirmation and a for us to schedule when we would like them to come pick up the car and give us money.

 

Fact that it works is great, just VERY different from buying and selling a car the 'normal' way.

 

Hmm ... probably going to sell both our cars soon, to get new ones. Might have to give them a chance to outbid the market! Thanks for the tip!

[KWSN - DSM]

Hmm ... probably going to sell both our cars soon, to get new ones. Might have to give them a chance to outbid the market! Thanks for the tip!

 

You should, seriously very impressive how well it worked, you can do it all online. Try throwing details on your cars in there and see what they are offering, and there are no hidden fees, the bottom line is the bottom line - Look at this one (and then I will stop and revert to 2026 power unit).

 

 

[Ben1445]

It doesn't have to be hydrogen, but that's my gut feeling, based on manufacturers who seem to be really pushing forward with it ... Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. A high-efficiency range-extended electric car with onboard charging  will win out over a full plug-in imho.

I know that the Japanese government is a lot more interested in hydrogen fuel cells than, say, European and North American counterparts which to an extent explains those manufacturing names. If you do develop a hydrogen fuel cell car, in theory you will also have developed experience with the necessary hardware to build a battery electric vehicle, since all you need will indeed be a bigger battery and you just leave out the fuel cell stack and hydrogen tanks.

 

In that sense hydrogen could be seen as a safe bet to chase, especially as hydrogen fuel cell technology will almost certainly play a role in society even if it does not become competitive in a personal car setting. We could end up seeing the likes of trains and heavy goods vehicles or perhaps deployable static power generators powered by fuel cell systems from Honda, Toyota, Hyundai etc. 

 

If batteries do continue the trends we are seeing, I am somewhat doubtful that hydrogen will be needed by the time the hybrid transition needs to be drawn to a close. We are already at the point where for a large majority of journeys in many areas, a battery electric car is perfectly adequate in terms of usability and getting pretty damn close on price. If we have hit a technological limit and battery range and recharge times do not improve much on today (ballpark lets say <10%) I can see hydrogen fuel cells potentially being attractive for personal car usage but it needs to come down on costs like battery electric has or it will still struggle to gain a strong hold in the market. 

 

There's also the need in any use of hydrogen fuel cells to create a sustainable hydrogen economy. Not only does the +95% of current fossil fuel derived supply need to come from green sources (typically hydrolysis via renewable energy) but it will need to meet future demand. This is not a dissimilar problem from battery electric cars in that the power source to charge needs to be renewables to be 'green', but hydrogen fuel cells have the added steps of the hydrogen production, transportation, storage, transfer to vehicle and then usage which incurs far greater efficiency losses and raises supply costs over just putting the generated electricity into a car battery.

 

That's not to say it is impossible. I don't like to say never. Ten years ago my truthful answer to all of this was largely expecting hybrids to be absolutely dominant in the mid century with EVs (including hydrogen) struggling to gain any foothold before then and I've changed my mid from because of what we have seen happen in the last decade. 

 

Toyota's move to hybrid power across their biggest sellers is also a significant signal imho, re: hybrid power bridging the gap to whatever is next. It's not going away anytime soon.

I think I would agree with you on that. 

Edited by Ben1445, 10 June 2020 - 18:14.

[mclara]

I am dubious of sales during the lockdown period but if you look at Tesla’s UK sales, they are impressive. At first I wondered if the fact they sell their cars online instead of the traditional showroom route have helped the figures? If so I think every major manufacturer will shift some sales to online and remove the cost of the dealership route, but Jaguar having the second best selling car (also electric) makes me dubious of this.

 

The future of road cars is looking a little clearer, SUVs for the short-term future and electric for the mid and long-term future. I look forward to reading the first headline of an unhappy punter been refused a trade in because he owns an IC car….

 

 

Rule makers need to follow the motor industry very carefully if they want to appeal to them from a sporting perspective. 

Tesla usually deliveres big batches of cars. They regularly top the charts for most sold models in Norway just to disapear for a few months. I don't know if Jaguar does the same.

[Ben1445]

Autosport: 2026 engines to be F1's next battleground, says Renault's Abiteboul | https://www.autospor...xt-battleground

 

Some very interesting quotes in there... 

Edited by Ben1445, 11 June 2020 - 09:43.

[F1matt]

There are some good points in the article above, we have touched on several in the thread, maybe I am reading it incorrectly but I get the impression the current engine suppliers are looking to keep the status quo with reduced costs? As we don't know which way the motor industry is going maybe they will settle for the current engine rules for an additional five years with some caveats. 

[Sterzo]

The stakeholders are in a tough place, 2026 is a long way off and the world could be a very different place by then. VW have stated they will not make IC engines after 2026, if they are doing that across the board for all their brands, then they won’t enter a sport that has any IC element. Maybe they should wait and see how FE pans out, if they get quicker maybe the FIA may try and merge the two sports.

Which reinforces the need to remove F1's dependency on an industry whose future is so unpredictable. We don't know what road car power units will look like in ten or twenty years, what total car sales will be doing in the face of city bans and possible car-hire schemes, legislation and public attitude. We don't know which car companies will survive and which will founder.

 

Taking the World Championship trophies to Formula E is certainly one possibility, but is premature at the moment.

 

Coincidentally, F1 and its feeder series are threatening their own existence with insane levels of spending, technological development which inhibits achieving the best racing, and speeds which prompt great cicuits to be converted into Ludo boards. It all points the same way: racing needs to be cheaper, simpler, slower and more sustainable. Golden opportunity: new engine regs in 2026.