Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Five Valve F1 Engines


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 blueprint2002

blueprint2002
  • Member

  • 113 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 28 June 2020 - 07:11

Most of you will recall that the 3-1/2 litre Formula 1 of 1989 onwards saw the introduction of 5-valve engines for the first time: Yamaha V8 (Zakspeed), Ferrari V12 and Tickford heads for the Judd V8 (Lotus). These were followed a year or two later by the Yamaha V12 which was used by Brabham, Tyrrell and Jordan, in succession.

The only one which had some success was the Ferrari, particularly in the first two years, although Yamaha did use five-valve designs on their production superbikes for a number of years. If memory serves, they won a few World SBK races too.

On the Yamaha superbike engines, the three inlet valves were arranged along the arc of a circle, concentric with the bore, hence not along a straight line. Thus the centre one of the three valves had to have its stem angled slightly so that it could also be operated by the same camshaft. Otherwise three camshafts might have been needed.

I am looking to understand how the F1 engines addressed this same issue, and would be grateful if anyone can post cutaway drawings, or pictures with the cam covers removed, of any of these engines.



Advertisement

#2 desmo

desmo
  • Tech Forum Host

  • 21,466 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 29 June 2020 - 15:13

F1desmo-5v.jpg

89dslide-open-3INT.jpg
 
Here are two photos I took many years ago at the Galleria Ferrari museum in Maranello. I don't remember much about them but the filename of the first suggests it is a 5v desmo head, and the second it looks like I took looking down an intake port and is labeled as being from 1989. You can see three valve stems, as well as an unusual throttle design.

 

<edit> I should add that the desmo 5v head was only an experimental piece that never made the track, I believe the bottom photo is an actual F1 race engine. The throttle in that one is a double slide throttle that opens from the middle rather than from one side like a conventional slide throttle.



#3 pierrre

pierrre
  • Member

  • 157 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 29 June 2020 - 21:55

F1desmo-5v.jpg

89dslide-open-3INT.jpg
 
Here are two photos I took many years ago at the Galleria Ferrari museum in Maranello. I don't remember much about them but the filename of the first suggests it is a 5v desmo head, and the second it looks like I took looking down an intake port and is labeled as being from 1989. You can see three valve stems, as well as an unusual throttle design.

 

you also got a picture of that titanium vee twelve block but the host you used doesnt seem to be around anymore



#4 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 10,960 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:09

In 1990 there was also talk about the Alfa Romeo Phase III Indycar engine to have 5 valves per cylinder. But, at least for me, no confirmation that these cylinderheads were ever built.



#5 desmo

desmo
  • Tech Forum Host

  • 21,466 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 30 June 2020 - 14:23

you also got a picture of that titanium vee twelve block but the host you used doesnt seem to be around anymore

F1Tiblock.jpg

 

Here it is.



#6 desmo

desmo
  • Tech Forum Host

  • 21,466 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 30 June 2020 - 14:25

I think 5v heads were better suited for applications that didn't call for a lot of valve lift (that ain't F1!). The primary advantage is the greater valve perimeter facilitating better flow at low lifts.



#7 pierrre

pierrre
  • Member

  • 157 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 30 June 2020 - 17:39

I think 5v heads were better suited for applications that didn't call for a lot of valve lift (that ain't F1!). The primary advantage is the greater valve perimeter facilitating better flow at low lifts.

want to post your pictures on my page who should i accredit to? anyway, those 5 valves maybe give benefit to charged engines



#8 blueprint2002

blueprint2002
  • Member

  • 113 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 01 July 2020 - 06:56

 
Here are two photos I took many years ago at the Galleria Ferrari museum in Maranello. I don't remember much about them but the filename of the first suggests it is a 5v desmo head, and the second it looks like I took looking down an intake port and is labeled as being from 1989. You can see three valve stems, as well as an unusual throttle design.

 

 

 

Thank you desmo for sharing your pictures.

The first thing that strikes me about that cylinder head is how neat and compact it is: so tightly packed with camshafts, bearings and all the rest. But then, that’s what you would expect from Ferrari.

It certainly appears to be desmodromic, as closing cams quite similar to what Ducati uses are visible. It is also clearly apparent that the centre inlet cam is slightly out of phase with the other two; this might be to allow for the differing angle of the stem, and thus ensure that all three open and close together. On the other hand, it might even be to intentionally time it slightly differently, for flow benefits that were revealed on the test bench. Do you have any idea?



#9 desmo

desmo
  • Tech Forum Host

  • 21,466 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 01 July 2020 - 13:37

want to post your pictures on my page who should i accredit to? anyway, those 5 valves maybe give benefit to charged engines

Just go ahead, you've got my permission.



#10 pierrre

pierrre
  • Member

  • 157 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 01 July 2020 - 19:04

Just go ahead, you've got my permission.

awesome and thanks