196 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Andrew Benson
@andrewbensonf1
4m
Red Bull lodge protest against Mercedes dual-axis steering system (DAS), on grounds that it is a movable aerodynamic device and that it constitutes an illegal adjustment to suspension while the car is in motion (articles 3.8 and 10.2.3 of technical regulations)

[Jvr]

Well, it is good and fine DAS will be cleared for this year.

[CSF]

Maybe Mercedes will enter into a confidentiality agreement with the FIA. 

[Jordan44]

Andrew Benson
@andrewbensonf1
4m
Red Bull lodge protest against Mercedes dual-axis steering system (DAS), on grounds that it is a movable aerodynamic device and that it constitutes an illegal adjustment to suspension while the car is in motion (articles 3.8 and 10.2.3 of technical regulations)

I do wonder why Ferrari don't appear to give two craps about it.

[SophieB]

I liked the way they have lodged separate protests against Bottas and Hamilton. Why? On the basis that otherwise Merc might later say 'aha the FIA only said Hamilton's car couldn't run it so now everything's coming up Bottas!' ?

[SophieB]

I do wonder why Ferrari don't appear to give two craps about it.

 

I can't keep up with all the palace intrigue any more but do Red Bull and Ferrari get on?

[CSF]

I do wonder why Ferrari don't appear to give two craps about it.

 

 

Ferrari aren't exactly in a position to protest at the moment given the suspicion surrounding their engine. 

 

It's also the same reason Toto started talking about it again this weekend, he knew this was likely. 

[Jordan44]

The teams and stewards will meet in 90 minutes to discuss DAS

[MaxisOne]

Better to have this sorted today than on race day. Interested to see how this is going to be handled by the stewards after Merc's technical team liased with the governing body in order to avoid a situation like this. I would presume there is already a plan B to ensure the car does not lose a ton of performance if it has to be disabled or removed just like the FRIC fiasco.

[ConsiderAndGo]

I do wonder why Ferrari don't appear to give two craps about it.

Because they’re in the midfield and DAS is the very least of their problems?

[Jordan44]

Because they’re in the midfield and DAS is the very least of their problems?

DAS appears to be the least of Red Bull's problems judging by today.

[ExFlagMan]

I think what Toto is saying is DAD was introduced to slow down the Merc! Basically saying to the others "we've done our bit to help you, what more do you want us to do, take off a wheel?"

 

That is reserved for the first corner on Sunday.

[kernel]

The teams and stewards will meet in 90 minutes to discuss DAS

 

Actually meeting in 20 minutes (Luke Smith messed up his timezones)...

[thefinalapex]

Actually meeting in 20 minutes (Luke Smith messed up his timezones)...

 

A bit of controversy always keeps us fans entertained   

[TomNokoe]

Split thread? The heat is on.

[JHSingo]

It'll be legal. Storm in a teacup. 

[MasterOfCoin]

Andrew Benson
@andrewbensonf1
4m
Red Bull lodge protest against Mercedes dual-axis steering system (DAS), on grounds that it is a movable aerodynamic device and that it constitutes an illegal adjustment to suspension while the car is in motion (articles 3.8 and 10.2.3 of technical regulations)

LOL....Just steering the Car left to right, makes the steering a movable aerodynamic device.....not to mention it's effect on the suspension....i don't see how RBR can get DAS removed, they should run their version, and see how much performance it brings......

[Anja]

LOL....Just steering the Car left to right, makes the steering a movable aerodynamic device.....not to mention it's effect on the suspension....i don't see how RBR can get DAS removed, they should run their version, and see how much performance it brings......

 

But that's let's say a "side effect" of turning the car. While DAS is an intentional, specific adjustment. 

[Jordan44]

But that's let's say a "side effect" of turning the car. While DAS is an intentional, specific adjustment.

A specific adjustment to the toe, just like steering, with the "side effect" being it moves the suspension.

[Risil]

I've split this out from the Austrian GP thread in anticipation of the stewards' decision, whatever it turns out to be.

[NickeF1]

If it’s legal, then all the teams have to develop it themself which brings costs up which FIA don’t want...It will be declared illegal just because of this. Also, why legal this year and illegal next year? Something doesn’t add up.

[statman]

The teams and stewards will meet in 90 minutes to discuss DAS

 

 

would be fun if Racing Point joins the Red Bull complaint now that they're this close to the front 

[Jordan44]

If it’s legal, then all the teams have to develop it themself which brings costs up which FIA don’t want...It will be declared illegal just because of this. Also, why legal this year and illegal next year? Something doesn’t add up.

It's illegal next year because the FIA knew about it after having a 2 year dialog with Merc over its implementation, so they specifically added a new clause completely outlawing it.

[f12018]

if this declared illigeal what the hell do merc do

[mgs315]

I’m sure they’ve got a small locking collar ready to go to disable it if required.

[PayasYouRace]

if this declared illigeal what the hell do merc do

 

Probably just lock it off with a pin or something similarly easy.

[Disgrace]

The sheer cynicism of the timing.

[CSF]

if this declared illigeal what the hell do merc do

 

 

Toto has said they can remove it and place the ballast elsewhere, I think they are prepared. 

[Marklar]

This is simply Red Bull trying to find out how far they can go. No way that after the FIA approved it it will be declared illegal.

would be hilarious though.

Also thumbs up to Red Bull for playing fair and doing that for practice rather than the race

[PayasYouRace]

Going by similar things historically in F1, if it is banned it probably won't make a huge amount of difference anyway and it will be banned for the wrong reasons under the wrong technical regulation.

[Ramon69]

DAS appears to be the least of Red Bull's problems judging by today.

There is a battle off track just as much as it is on track, so stop moaning everyone. Mercedes would have done the same thing if they were in Red Bull's shoes. It's not about being legal or not, it's about defeating your opponent in any way you can.

[MaxisOne]

There is a battle off track just as much as it is on track, so stop moaning everyone. Mercedes would have done the same thing if they were in Red Bull's shoes. It's not about being legal or not, it's about defeating your opponent in any way you can.

 

This is the part i'm not fond of but i have to agree with. The problem is the guy who was best able to argue his way out of these scrapes on behalf of Mercedes is no longer with the team.

[Spillage]

I guess Red Bull will have had an awfully long time to prepare their case. I personally have absolutely no idea whether it's legal or not, but I reckon it's unlikely to be banned at this point.

[pdac]

These are the regulations that they are citing:

 

3.8 Aerodynamic influence

With the exception of the parts described in Articles 11.4, 11.5 and 11.6, and the rear view mirrors described in Article 14.3, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :

 

a) Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.

b) Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom).

 

With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.6.8 (in addition to minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the parts described in Articles 11.4, 11.5 and 11.6, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

 

Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

 

No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the parts referred to in Articles 3.7.10, 3.7.11 and 3.7.12, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.

 

With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.6.8, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

 

 

10.2 Suspension geometry

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion.

 

 

Edited by pdac, 03 July 2020 - 17:33.

[Myrvold]

Also thumbs up to Red Bull for playing fair and doing that for practice rather than the race

 

On a sidenote. I haven't bothered checking the rules, but are they still allowed to run an illegal car in practice (thus "Free" practice)?

[Huffer]

 

These are the regulations that they are citing:

 

10.2 Suspension geometry

10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion. 

 

Good luck on them trying to claim that wheel camber is part of the suspension configuration. It doesn't affect the way in which the car response to loading or wheel movement through the suspension loci, so it's going to be a tough sell. 

It seems an oddly specific rule to bring out though, and I'm of the mind that this to have the system banned rather than trying to clarify their own version of DAS. 

[monolulu]

Do the stewards have a technical delegate? Or do they get the FIA to advise?

[BRG]

Better to have this sorted today than on race day.

 

I guess Red Bull will have had an awfully long time to prepare their case. 

 

They couldn't have cleared this up during the last four months?  F1 goes completely F1 as usual.  

 

#WeRaceAsOne........bullshit.

[pdac]

If it’s legal, then all the teams have to develop it themself which brings costs up which FIA don’t want...It will be declared illegal just because of this. Also, why legal this year and illegal next year? Something doesn’t add up.

 

The thing I read when the Mercedes DAS was first discussed was that there is something about the design of the Red Bull car which makes it impossible for them to incorporate such a system without a big redesign. Other teams could add it, though (maybe some have been thinking about it since we first saw the cars all those months ago).

[Peeko]

A specific adjustment to the toe, just like steering, with the "side effect" being it moves the suspension.

Steering left and right is a necessity to safely navigate a racetrack.

 

In and out is not. In and out is not steering the car.

 

Moving the steering wheel forward and backward does not help you steer to: make a pass, defend your position, navigate a corner, avoid an accident, enter and exit the pit lane. Adjusting the toe can be done with a lever, a steering wheel is not necessary, but that would be illegal. Mercedes have exposed a loophole in the way the regulations are written, nothing more.

[SonGoku]

The official Merc twitter admin isn't very worried.

Edited by SonGoku, 03 July 2020 - 17:42.

[PayasYouRace]

 

 

 

Good luck on them trying to claim that wheel camber is part of the suspension configuration. It doesn't affect the way in which the car response to loading or wheel movement through the suspension loci, so it's going to be a tough sell. 

It seems an oddly specific rule to bring out though, and I'm of the mind that this to have the system banned rather than trying to clarify their own version of DAS. 

 

This was certainly the meat of the discussion we had during testing. Whether the interpretation of the word suspension applied to what the DAS system is doing covers it. Personally I lean towards it being part of the steering system.

[Peeko]

This was certainly the meat of the discussion we had during testing. Whether the interpretation of the word suspension applied to what the DAS system is doing covers it. Personally I lean towards it being part of the steering system.

I was thinking the same, but a steering system only changes the car's direction from left to right, so theoretically it should only involve the steering wheel, steering column and tie link (toe and camber angles are not needed to steer a car), but anything that can adjust the car's handling characteristics is part of the suspension.

Edited by Peeko, 03 July 2020 - 17:53.

[MaxisOne]

The official Merc twitter admin isn't very worried.

 

I would rather they say nothing till a verdict comes down. You never know who has had a bad day.

[SenorSjon]

If it was activated by a button or switch, would it be legal?

[SonGoku]

Just read we hear more before FP3 about it.

[GiorgioF1]

The official Merc twitter admin isn't very worried.

Any info about what their janitor is saying? Just to be sure.

[PayasYouRace]

I was thinking the same, but a steering system only changes the car's direction from left to right, so theoretically it should only involve the steering wheel, steering column and tie link (toe and camber angles are not needed to steer a car), but anything that can adjust the car's handling characteristics is part of the suspension.

That was a sticking point back in February. Is a steering system something that adjusts the direction of the car, or something that adjusts the angle of the steering wheels?

 

Both could quite reasonably be argued and it depends on how the FIA see it.

[Jordan44]

Steering left and right is a necessity to safely navigate a racetrack.

In and out is not. In and out is not steering the car.

Moving the steering wheel forward and backward does not help you steer to: make a pass, defend your position, navigate a corner, avoid an accident, enter and exit the pit lane. Adjusting the toe can be done with a lever, a steering wheel is not necessary, but that would be illegal. Mercedes have exposed a loophole in the way the regulations are written, nothing more.

It's not a loophole IMO. "Side effects" were never the intention of that rule. FRIC was illegal because it LITERALLY adjusted the suspension and therefore ride height. And I fail to see how the necessity of the mechanism is of any relevance unless you very explicitly state that.

Edited by Jordan44, 03 July 2020 - 17:59.

[TomNokoe]

My twopence from listening to Horner on Sky was that Red Bull have their own system ready. I think they're just being cute with Merc.