77 replies to this topic

[ANF]

I think you’re the only other person to bring up Alesi. That was the blueprint for a cheeky re-pass.

Here it is, for the lead, 34 laps into the race. Ken Tyrrell seemed to like it.

[Arundo]

Oh come on, they were bouncing off each other, cutting corners, forcing off track. Super scrappy stuff in comparison with todays standards. It blows me away how people keep citing this as some kind of golden standard.

Is it ? Or are we just not used to racing like that anymore, with all the overkill in penalty’s and punishments ?

As for Max vs Bottas fun fight to watch. Shame we have DRS so there isnt much of a fight these days. Bottas would have past Max sooner or later in the awesome Merc.

Edited by Arundo, 12 July 2020 - 22:04.

[P123]

I'm sure Mansell and Fittipaldi changed places multiple times at Cleveland way back in the early 90s.

[P123]

https://youtu.be/BTKRmcGdVXM?t=191

[baddog]

Both drivers drove cleanly and well which allows this. Shame everyone is allowed to elbows out on exists and ruin this stuff too often

[milestone 11]

Oh come on, they were bouncing off each other, cutting corners, forcing off track. Super scrappy stuff in comparison with todays standards. It blows me away how people keep citing this as some kind of golden standard.

You either have a very poor memory of it or maybe you never have watched it at all. The incident is nowhere near as roughneck as you imply.

[Topsu]

I used to hate Verstappen, and it's weird but I absolutely love the guy now. The way he's grown and is driving these cars is so nice. It's always a joy when he is on the screen. Thank god he's so young, he will have an insane career.

[Spillage]

The kid needs a better car. I think he's probably the best driver on the grid.

[baddog]

I used to hate Verstappen, and it's weird but I absolutely love the guy now. The way he's grown and is driving these cars is so nice. It's always a joy when he is on the screen. Thank god he's so young, he will have an insane career.

 

I still think he is a bit of a knob but damned if he isn't amazing on track now.

[beachdrifter]

What's he trying to achieve? 

 

There is always a chance that e. g. Bottas makes a mistake while under pressure, potentially allowing Max to keep his place until the end of the race. Also the psychological effect of seeming harder/more risky to overtake than others, hopefully making his competitors more cautious around him, which could pay dividends in some situations.

[mclarensmps]

I'm not a fan of his by any means, but he's such a phenomenal racer, and provides a lot of entertainment. Never change Max, you'll win title soon enough. 

[Nemo1965]

You either have a very poor memory of it or maybe you never have watched it at all. The incident is nowhere near as roughneck as you imply.

 

To add some perspective: back then there was kind of a focus group of 'elder drivers' (was it the GPDA already?) that criticised both Arnoux and Villeneuve for this race. Lauda, Andretti and some others thought it was too dangerous and kind of reprimanded the two drivers - who shrugged it off.

 

One tends to side with Arnoux and Villeneuve (I did back then), but you have to remember that in 1979 the memory of Ronnie Peterson's death was still fresh in the memory, that the cars were still very dangerous and that Villeneuve had already had several big shunts of which one, in Japan in 1977, killed two spectators. 

[TomNokoe]

[Requiem84]

 

I watched all F3 races live that weekend. It started to dawn that something special was happening in F3. 

 

I recall he won all 3 F3 races in Spa that weekend. 

 

I must say I really liked him repassing Bottas. Bottas almost ran too wide into T5 and got close from unsettling the car into the gravel. If he'd ran of there, Max would have kept his p2. Also a good reminder for Bottas to be extra on his toes whenever he races Max. 

[absinthedude]

To add some perspective: back then there was kind of a focus group of 'elder drivers' (was it the GPDA already?) that criticised both Arnoux and Villeneuve for this race. Lauda, Andretti and some others thought it was too dangerous and kind of reprimanded the two drivers - who shrugged it off.

 

One tends to side with Arnoux and Villeneuve (I did back then), but you have to remember that in 1979 the memory of Ronnie Peterson's death was still fresh in the memory, that the cars were still very dangerous and that Villeneuve had already had several big shunts of which one, in Japan in 1977, killed two spectators. 

 

Really?

 

I'm old enough to have watched that race first time round on TV (still have it on VHS) and all I remember is how excited people were. Nothing in the broadcast commentary about it being dangerous, Murray Walker was excited about how hard fought and spectacular it was. In the years after the Arnoux/Villeneuve battle was always presented as a golden moment. Arnoux himself says it's his favourite memory of his many years in F1.. I've never heard or seen that fight criticised by a driver or journalist. 

 

Not saying you're incorrect, but I'm curious as to whether there's a source for the GPDA reprimanding the guys. It's the first I've heard of it in the intervening 40 years.

 

 

https://peterwindsor...ene-dijon-1979/

Edited by absinthedude, 13 July 2020 - 13:23.

[TomNokoe]

I'd seen this clip before. Surprised I didn't remember. It was Dani Juncadella on Twitter who reminded me.

I know I posted initially that it wasn't a Verstappen trait, but maybe I should re-consider. In the words of Chris Kamara, fighting like a beaver!

Edited by TomNokoe, 13 July 2020 - 13:22.

[Fonzey]

Brundle will often say that "XXX was right to not put up a fight there, his fight is with the guys further back" or words to that effect. Strategically I agree with that but occasionally the drivers are better off showing their tenacity even if they know the end result is inevitable. It may be whilst trying to attract the attention of a better team, but in the case of Max it's the case of boosting his personal stock in the paddock - he knows he can compete at the very front in the right machinery, so every now and then it really helps to put in a legit piece of racecraft to remind everybody that he's ready for a WDC just as soon as RBR are.

[Collombin]

Not saying you're incorrect, but I'm curious as to whether there's a source for the GPDA reprimanding the guys. It's the first I've heard of it in the intervening 40 years.

Nigel Roebuck in Chasing the Title, p169 is one. Though he emphasises that Andretti was not one of those critical - quite the opposite. Lauda, Scheckter and Fittipaldi are mentioned as calling them irresponsible and stupid.

Edited by Collombin, 13 July 2020 - 13:43.

[absinthedude]

Nigel Roebuck in Chasing the Title, p169 is one. Though he emphasises that Andretti was not one of those critical - quite the opposite. Lauda, Scheckter and Fittipaldi are mentioned as calling them irresponsible and stupid.

 

Roebuck of course is a huge Gilles fan, and for a time it seemed he couldn't write his 5th Column articles without at least mentioning him once. He's also a big fan of that scrap in 1979, so anything he's written about it might be skewed in favour of Gilles and Rene. I've found another article which mentions Scheckter thought they were irresponsible. But the overwhelming view at the time and since seems to be that it was a jolly good battle.

 

 

The caveat is that there's so much aerodynamic gubbins on the cars nowadays that you couldn't race like that even if the stewards permitted it. Personally I'd ban all the barge boards, turning veins, and aero appendages between the front wing and the  engine cowl. Not just because you could have more "real racing" but because the cars look fugly with them and if they were banned no team would be at a disadvantage while all the cars would look better for it and be easier to race aggressively. 

[absinthedude]

Brundle will often say that "XXX was right to not put up a fight there, his fight is with the guys further back" or words to that effect. Strategically I agree with that but occasionally the drivers are better off showing their tenacity even if they know the end result is inevitable. It may be whilst trying to attract the attention of a better team, but in the case of Max it's the case of boosting his personal stock in the paddock - he knows he can compete at the very front in the right machinery, so every now and then it really helps to put in a legit piece of racecraft to remind everybody that he's ready for a WDC just as soon as RBR are.

 

Several things probably going through a driver's mind. First, they're racers. While some successful racers have been prudent (Prost, Button, sometimes Lauda) many are going to take any opportunity they can. Max saw a clean opportunity to retake a place and he grabbed it. It carried very little risk. Additionally, Max likely wants the world, including Bottas, to know that he won't just give up even though his car was slower on the day. Putting a marker down for the future when, hopefully, Max is in a car equal to the Mercedes. And there's always the chance that the other guy (Bottas yesterday) might make a mistake or over cook his tyres or engine trying to stay ahead or trying to pass a second time. It ain't over until it's over. 

[OO7]

That was a nice bit of racing from Max.  Make them work for it a little bit.

[TheMidnight]

Kimi's repass on Lewis at Monza 2018 was a good one. 

[Sid04]

I think if I remember correctly..Alonso used to do it quiet often..Alonso was a very aggressive driver and would generally comeback at anyone overtaking him..Verstappen's driving reminds me a lot about Alonso..they both look similar in the way they race with Max being tad more aggressive and alonso a bit calculated.. And Max's repass was moe like telling bottas that you are passing me not because you are a better driver.but, you have a better car.

[D28]

To add some perspective: back then there was kind of a focus group of 'elder drivers' (was it the GPDA already?) that criticised both Arnoux and Villeneuve for this race. Lauda, Andretti and some others thought it was too dangerous and kind of reprimanded the two drivers - who shrugged it off.

 

One tends to side with Arnoux and Villeneuve (I did back then), but you have to remember that in 1979 the memory of Ronnie Peterson's death was still fresh in the memory, that the cars were still very dangerous and that Villeneuve had already had several big shunts of which one, in Japan in 1977, killed two spectators. 

Many drivers did criticize them, but Andretti wasn't one of them. Gerald Donaldson quotes him in Gilles VILLENEUVE The Life Of The Legendary Racing Driver

 

 Mario Andretti, then driving for Lotus, made light of it: "Just a couple of young lions clawing each other."

[PayasYouRace]

You either have a very poor memory of it or maybe you never have watched it at all. The incident is nowhere near as roughneck as you imply.
https://www.youtube....h?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw

They fought hard, but you get the sense there was never any attempts at foul play. Yes the last lap got pretty desperate, especially around the Sabeliers and La Bretellle, but the both kept going. Nobody was spun round or put in a gravel trap or wall.

[Nemo1965]

Really?

I'm old enough to have watched that race first time round on TV (still have it on VHS) and all I remember is how excited people were. Nothing in the broadcast commentary about it being dangerous, Murray Walker was excited about how hard fought and spectacular it was. In the years after the Arnoux/Villeneuve battle was always presented as a golden moment. Arnoux himself says it's his favourite memory of his many years in F1.. I've never heard or seen that fight criticised by a driver or journalist.

Not saying you're incorrect, but I'm curious as to whether there's a source for the GPDA reprimanding the guys. It's the first I've heard of it in the intervening 40 years.


https://peterwindsor...ene-dijon-1979/

From Villeneuve, by Gerald Donaldson:

‘But the Grand Prix Drivers' Safety Committee, Jody Scheckter president, condemned Villeneuve and Arnoux for unruly behaviour. The two were hauled on the carpet before the Committee at the next race, in England, and roundly censured for dangerous driving. Scheckter knew what he was talking about, having a been considered a crash-prone madman when he first came into F1. After causing one of the biggest accidents in F1 history, at Silverstone in 1973, his peers demanded he be banished from the sport. Instead, he was 'rested' for several races by his then employers, the McLaren team.

Jody (who finished seventh in the other Ferrari at Dijon) had spoken to Gilles privately before that. "When I saw Francois Cevert killed (in 1973) it was the first time I ever thought about dying in the sport. It was horrible. After that all I was trying to do in F1 was save my life. You have a lot of drivers talking about the excitement, romance and glamour of the danger. For me that was the ugly part of the sport, an unfortunate part. And I believed I had to do everything in my power to drive as slowly and carefully as possible to give myself more chance, just to keep alive. But Gilles was always wanting to prove himself, for every lap. I never knew him to say I will take it easy now. It was always the maximum.

"Because I had such a good relationship with Gilles I could talk to him quietly and tell him he was a silly ass. He was intelligent enough to know that it was a stupid thing to do and that you don't last long doing that kind of stuff. But he liked that image of knocking wheels together and the idea of being crazy. He wouldn't admit it was foolhardy but I think he realised it. At the Silverstone drivers’ meeting we spoke to the two of them in front of everybody. We asked them for their points of view. Then we were tough on them."

Arnoux recalls the heated session vividly. "At Silverstone a lot of drivers - Scheckter, Fittipaldi, Regazzoni, Lauda - said it was too dangerous. 'You guys are completely crazy! You could have a big crash. Etc. Etc.' After Lauda said it was too dangerous, I said, 'Yes, maybe for you and Gilles. But not for me and Gilles.' I said to Niki, 'There is no possibility for you to do that because you would take your foot off the accelerator!' Gilles said to them all it is not dangerous and you are completely stupid to have a meeting for that!"

[PlatenGlass]

You either have a very poor memory of it or maybe you never have watched it at all. The incident is nowhere near as roughneck as you imply.

Yeah, it's mostly OK, but there's one bit at about 1:33 in that video where Villeneuve basically drives into Arnoux.

[milestone 11]

From Villeneuve, by Gerald Donaldson:

An excellent read, as is Sid Watkins' Life at the Limit. Sid tells of a road car drive with Gilles and Joann Villeneuve. Sid tells of Joann laying on the rear floor of the car rather than sitting in the rear seats whilst the trip involved bouncing off parked cars and buildings at break neck speeds. Little doubt that he was crazy.