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Renault protesting the Racing Point Mercedes lookalike


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#1 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:15

https://www.motorspo...ian-gp/4832634/

Renault has protested Racing Point's cars following its double points finish in the Austrian Grand Prix.

The French car manufacturer lodged complaints about both Sergio Perez and Lance Stroll's cars as the debate over its Mercedes copy erupted.

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#2 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:17

A reminder there’s some bad blood here after RP successfully protested against Renault after Japan last year.

#3 Ellios

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:19

Spicy  :up:



#4 masa90

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:20

If it goes through Racing Point are screwed.

#5 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:21

If it goes through Racing Point are screwed.

They can run last year's car that's their own design and is still legal to run in this season



#6 Marklar

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:23

Cyril learning from his best bro Horner

#7 SonGoku

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:23

What a bunch of saddo's. People don't want a more competitive grid, they only say that in front of the public.

#8 Quickshifter

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:24

Let us look at it from this way. Why is a Williams cheered when it makes it to Q2? Yes getting inspired from your rivals is part of the sport but you execute it to suit your car and not copy the car en masse.

 

It is like Ferrari's case where the FIA could not prove Ferrari was wrong even though they knew 100 percent they were cheating. In this case nobody can prove they copied the whole car but clearly that is exactly what they have done. Yes we want a competitive F1 but teams like Mclaren, Renault and Williams who design their own cars are the heart beat of this sport.


Edited by Quickshifter, 12 July 2020 - 17:24.


#9 Fastcake

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:24

Ooo great another illegal car fight! It’s not the same when they’re settled quietly through some shady FIA deal before the season starts.

#10 Chillimeister

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:25

IIRC one of the commentators said on air that the FIA had examined all the RP drawings, and visited Mercedes to check the RP designs weren't just a copy, and were satisfied that they weren't. So if that's true, Renault are ****ing in the wind.



#11 coppilcus

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:25

If Renault produce a wording similar to what Red Bull did protesting the DAS, they can kiss their protest goodbye...

 

Hopefully that's the case!



#12 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:26

What a bunch of saddo's. People don't want a more competitive grid, they only say that in front of the public.

It's a constructors championship. Design and build your own car, after that we can debate how the field can be more competitive.



#13 FLB

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:28

Well, it was bound to happen.



#14 Hakki069

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:29

Was always going to happen. But would have to imagine the FIA will pass the racing point car.

#15 aray

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:33

They are barking up for nothing.FIA won't listen much. :lol:



#16 Clatter

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:34

When I saw the title I thought it was going to be a protest regarding the Stroll/Ricciardo incident. At least this gives us something to talk about until the next race.

#17 Quickshifter

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:35

Even  if they lose the protest so be it, i feel in the interest of the sport teams have to raise their voices cos if copying a last car's car completely as it is, is normalized then there is going to anarchy in the sport.



#18 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:35

And why didn't they do this last week? Because RP didn't have two cars in the points? :p

#19 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:36

I'm guessing once they saw how quickly Perez was able to run relentlessly they thought why not challenge it



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#20 SophieB

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:36

When I saw the title I thought it was going to be a protest regarding the Stroll/Ricciardo incident. At least this gives us something to talk about until the next race.

Feel free to start one! More threads are a good thing.



#21 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:37

Nothing Racing Point have said about the car washes with how a F1 car is designed and created by all the other teams. There has been no evidence that I can find by people who pore over technical photos that the RP20 is any different to the Mercedes W10, and even if there are some differences in key parts that are not part of the Listed Part scheme there are absolutely no differences between the W10 and the RP20, like basically the entire aero package. I can't see how Racing Point can prove that their front wing design for example is any different to the 2019 Mercedes one.

 

As I see it, if Mercedes wanted to turn up to the next race with the W10 because of a fundamental problem with their W11 car, they'd be able to, the car is perfectly legal for the 2020 regulations. This means that Racing Point running a copy of that car are using a design that is legal for the current formula as a car but is not of their own design, which is a fundamental breach of the regulations.



#22 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:41

And why didn't they do this last week? Because RP didn't have two cars in the points? :p

They'll say they had to gather their evidence etc.



#23 Chillimeister

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:44

Nothing Racing Point have said about the car washes with how a F1 car is designed and created by all the other teams. There has been no evidence that I can find by people who pore over technical photos that the RP20 is any different to the Mercedes W10, and even if there are some differences in key parts that are not part of the Listed Part scheme there are absolutely no differences between the W10 and the RP20, like basically the entire aero package. I can't see how Racing Point can prove that their front wing design for example is any different to the 2019 Mercedes one.

 

As I see it, if Mercedes wanted to turn up to the next race with the W10 because of a fundamental problem with their W11 car, they'd be able to, the car is perfectly legal for the 2020 regulations. This means that Racing Point running a copy of that car are using a design that is legal for the current formula as a car but is not of their own design, which is a fundamental breach of the regulations.

 

According to the Sky commentators, the FIA doesn't agree with you.



#24 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:46

According to the Sky commentators, the FIA doesn't agree with you.

The FIA will have to prove that then, perhaps Renault are protesting for clarity too because as we've seen with how the FIA dealt with Ferrari, they're not exactly the most trustworthy organisation.

 

And as I have asked many people several times since we saw the car back at the beginning of the year... show me where it's different to the W10.


Edited by DanardiF1, 12 July 2020 - 17:47.


#25 Fastcake

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:48

IIRC one of the commentators said on air that the FIA had examined all the RP drawings, and visited Mercedes to check the RP designs weren't just a copy, and were satisfied that they weren't. So if that's true, Renault are ****ing in the wind.


That’s true, but in the interest of fairness this would not be the first time the FIA made a mistake on the initial ruling.

#26 Beamer

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:50

It's a constructors championship. Design and build your own car, after that we can debate how the field can be more competitive.



Well... thats exactly what they did. Only smarter then the rest.

#27 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:51

Well... thats exactly what they did. Only smarter then the rest.

Renault don't think so (along with a lot of other people), hence the protest.



#28 smitten

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:52

The FIA will have to prove that then, perhaps Renault are protesting for clarity too because as we've seen with how the FIA dealt with Ferrari, they're not exactly the most trustworthy organisation.

 

And as I have asked many people several times since we saw the car back at the beginning of the year... show me where it's different to the W10.

 

Innocent until proven guilty - I think it is for Renault to show that the IP has been copied, not for the FIA to show that it hasn't.



#29 Chillimeister

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:53

The FIA will have to prove that then, perhaps Renault are protesting for clarity too because as we've seen with how the FIA dealt with Ferrari, they're not exactly the most trustworthy organisation.

 

And as I have asked many people several times since we saw the car back at the beginning of the year... show me where it's different to the W10.

 

You're entitled to your opinions of course, but no-one is going to show you the relevant drawings. But evidently the FIA has done the examination, and evidently considers there is no case to answer. But even if that were not the case, you are right about the FIA - they aren't likely to go back on their decision. Rightly or wrongly.



#30 Timstr11

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:54

Nothing Racing Point have said about the car washes with how a F1 car is designed and created by all the other teams. There has been no evidence that I can find by people who pore over technical photos that the RP20 is any different to the Mercedes W10, and even if there are some differences in key parts that are not part of the Listed Part scheme there are absolutely no differences between the W10 and the RP20, like basically the entire aero package. I can't see how Racing Point can prove that their front wing design for example is any different to the 2019 Mercedes one.

 

As I see it, if Mercedes wanted to turn up to the next race with the W10 because of a fundamental problem with their W11 car, they'd be able to, the car is perfectly legal for the 2020 regulations. This means that Racing Point running a copy of that car are using a design that is legal for the current formula as a car but is not of their own design, which is a fundamental breach of the regulations.

 

The rule doesn't say that parts of your car or the whole car cannot look the same like a competitor.

Neither does the rule say you cannot copy or reverse engineer a competitor's car or part of the car.

Renault's attempt is therefore futile.

 

Having said that, I do hope that reverse engineering doesn't become the norm in F1.

I like F1 as an engineering competition where different groups come up with different solutions to achieve speed.



#31 MaxisOne

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:54

If it goes through Racing Point are screwed.

 

I doubt it.



#32 Hakki069

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:56

Nothing Racing Point have said about the car washes with how a F1 car is designed and created by all the other teams. There has been no evidence that I can find by people who pore over technical photos that the RP20 is any different to the Mercedes W10, and even if there are some differences in key parts that are not part of the Listed Part scheme there are absolutely no differences between the W10 and the RP20, like basically the entire aero package. I can't see how Racing Point can prove that their front wing design for example is any different to the 2019 Mercedes one.

As I see it, if Mercedes wanted to turn up to the next race with the W10 because of a fundamental problem with their W11 car, they'd be able to, the car is perfectly legal for the 2020 regulations. This means that Racing Point running a copy of that car are using a design that is legal for the current formula as a car but is not of their own design, which is a fundamental breach of the regulations.

I think everyone deep down thinks its illegal and not how they say it is. But it's being able to prove it.

If it Can be proved then racing point are f***ed. And surely Mercedes would be in trouble for allowing it too.

Edited by Hakki069, 12 July 2020 - 17:56.


#33 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:56

You're entitled to your opinions of course, but no-one is going to show you the relevant drawings. But evidently the FIA has done the examination, and evidently considers there is no case to answer. But even if that were not the case, you are right about the FIA - they aren't likely to go back on their decision. Rightly or wrongly.

You could show photos of where the car is different. No-one has been able to.



#34 TheFish

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:57

Genuine question - is it illegal to copy someone else’s car completely? There’s enough photos and videos to get a good copy of it, so it isn’t too difficult.

#35 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:58

Nothing Racing Point have said about the car washes with how a F1 car is designed and created by all the other teams. There has been no evidence that I can find by people who pore over technical photos that the RP20 is any different to the Mercedes W10, and even if there are some differences in key parts that are not part of the Listed Part scheme there are absolutely no differences between the W10 and the RP20, like basically the entire aero package. I can't see how Racing Point can prove that their front wing design for example is any different to the 2019 Mercedes one.

 

As I see it, if Mercedes wanted to turn up to the next race with the W10 because of a fundamental problem with their W11 car, they'd be able to, the car is perfectly legal for the 2020 regulations. This means that Racing Point running a copy of that car are using a design that is legal for the current formula as a car but is not of their own design, which is a fundamental breach of the regulations.

You have to also remember that RP gets a lot of their parts, like suspension arms and gearboxes from Merc...so things are going to look very similar if they did a "facsimile" of the Merc....... 



#36 Beamer

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:59

Renault don't think so (along with a lot of other people), hence the protest.



Yes I am aware of that. And if they really got bleiprints from merc then that is a breach of the rules and should be punished. No doubt about that.

It's just that (assuming) they did actually reverse engineer the W10 I'm just too annoyed by the 'against the spirit of f1' sayers, as that is really bullshit.

The only true spirit of f1 is maximize your resources to go as fast as possible. And if copying as much as you can is the best way, then good for you. Copying has always, and will always, be part of f1.

#37 Clatter

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 17:59

Innocent until proven guilty - I think it is for Renault to show that the IP has been copied, not for the FIA to show that it hasn't.

Except that's rather hard to do without the drawings being handed over.

#38 NotAPineapple

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:00

Renault highlighted the following phrase which suggests that they know something about how the RP designs came about. 

 

"in the case of the Outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a party that directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor."

 

Possibly a 3rd party doing development work for Mercedes was given permission to pass this information to RP.

 

Cyril better have his facts straight on this one as it's a massive allegation.

 

It will likely affect Mercedes more than RP given that they are essentially suggesting secret collusion.



#39 Beamer

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:00

Genuine question - is it illegal to copy someone else’s car completely? There’s enough photos and videos to get a good copy of it, so it isn’t too difficult.


Yes it's. As long as you figure itout by yourself

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#40 coppilcus

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:00

Not a single issue with Alpha Tauri and HAAS, because they're 'slow'...



#41 NotAPineapple

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:00

Except that's rather hard to do without the drawings being handed over.

 Handing drawings over to the FIA is not a problem. I beleive they are allowed to do that. 



#42 NotAPineapple

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:01

Not a single issue with Alpha Tauri and HAAS, because they're 'slow'...

 

They share technology only on the approved listed parts. 



#43 vee10

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:01

https://twitter.com/...2355968002?s=19

#44 Beamer

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:02

I think everyone deep down thinks its illegal and not how they say it is...


I dont...

#45 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:02

Innocent until proven guilty - I think it is for Renault to show that the IP has been copied, not for the FIA to show that it hasn't.

I guess they'll be able to do that with photo evidence, and say that the W10 front wing for example was established as Mercedes IP in being entered for the 2019 F1 World Championship at whichever events, therefore making RP's 'copy' an item using 'outsourced design from a fellow competitor', even if RP say they have their own drawings etc.... the drawings even if they were derived from looking at the Merc FW would be made after the original Merc FW existed and was scrutineered, so as with all IP disputes the original piece would be considered 'the' design.



#46 DanardiF1

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:03

You have to also remember that RP gets a lot of their parts, like suspension arms and gearboxes from Merc...so things are going to look very similar if they did a "facsimile" of the Merc....... 

 

Renault are aware of that, they mention that they are protesting parts not part of the Listed Parts scheme.



#47 MinardiCrashDummy

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:03

Renault highlighted the following phrase which suggests that they know something about how the RP designs came about. 

 

Possibly a 3rd party doing development work for Mercedes was given permission to pass this information to RP.

 

Cyril better have his facts straight on this one as it's a massive allegation.

 

It will likely affect Mercedes more than RP given that they are essentially suggesting secret collusion.

 

There is no incentive for Mercedes to collude with RP to create a identical car.



#48 Beamer

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:04

Except that's rather hard to do without the drawings being handed over.


Fia can request those and teams have to comply. (Read that somewhere on a reliable source as the RP first tested)

Edited by Beamer, 12 July 2020 - 18:07.


#49 FLB

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:05

There is no incentive for Mercedes to collude with RP to create a identical car.

What if this is a way for Toto to spread costs accross multiple teams, considering the coming budget cap?



#50 coppilcus

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Posted 12 July 2020 - 18:06

They share technology only on the approved listed parts. 

 

As Racing Point...