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Qualifying Averages between teammates - 2020 Edition


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#1 tyker

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 17:13

Once again I bring forward my qualifying averages for those of you that are interested in this kind of thing, my methodology is too use the fastest lap a driver achieves whether that be in Q1, Q2 or Q3, a driver may well out qualify his teammate but end up having achieved a slower lap so his teammate gets the benefit towards the average lap.

 

Laps are only used where drivers competed in the same qualifying sessions and only dry laps are used because wet laps are run in inconsistent conditions were much larger gaps in teammates are often seen and often an element of luck might be present as well.

 

It has to be seen that a driver has had a fair chance to set a competitive lap, free of mechanical issues, yellow flags etc, also a driver may simply not have set a competitive lap after running off the track or it could be a combination of all 3 things. Another thing I have to be sure of is that drivers are driving to their maximum ability and not just coasting through the qualifying sessions like we tend to see with the top teams until they reach Q3.

 

2020 (After 3 races)

 

01. Russell 0.7s

02. Verstappen 0.48s

03. Leclerc 0.34s

04. Gasly 0.32s

05. Ricciardo 0.29s

06. Norris 0.2s

07. Magnussen 0.19s

08. Hamilton 0.14s

09. Giovinazzi 0.12s

10. Stroll 0.04s*

 

*Against Perez


Edited by tyker, 01 August 2020 - 23:29.


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#2 tyker

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 16:31

After 70th Anniversary (70th Anniversary Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.69s (0.673s)

02. Verstappen 0.48s (0.466s)

03. Gasly 0.42s (0.728s)

04. Leclerc 0.37s (0.464s)

05. Ricciardo 0.31 (0.375s)

06. Norris 0.2s (0.198s)

07. Giovinazzi 0.1s (0.06s)

08. Hamilton 0.09s (-0.063s)

09. Grosjean 0,037s (0.717s)

10. Stroll 0.036s (-)*

 

*Against Perez



#3 shure

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 17:22

sorry if this is  obvious, but how does Stroll's average against Perez change given that they haven't had any more races together?



#4 Anderis

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 18:04

I presume the spreadsheet automatically divides by the number of races and it hasn't been corrected for the fact that Perez is not racing ATM. Just a guess. :p


Edited by Anderis, 08 August 2020 - 18:04.


#5 tyker

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 18:37

sorry if this is  obvious, but how does Stroll's average against Perez change given that they haven't had any more races together?

It hasn't changed it was rounded up to 0.04s before, for this time I went to 3 numbers because Grosjean was very similar, I could have left both at 0.04s but I just like to show a stepped gap rather than have an equals position.



#6 tyker

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Posted 15 August 2020 - 14:32

After Barcelona ( Barcelona difference)

 

01. Russell 0.64s (0.433s)

02. Verstappen 0.53s (0.737s)

03. Gasly 0.42s (0.392s)

04. Leclerc 0.34s (0.215s)

05. Ricciardo 0.32s (0.369s)

06. Norris 0.12s (-0.208s)

07. Raikkonen 0.1s (0.9s)

08. Hamilton 0.08s (0.059s)

09. Perez 0.011s (0.107s)

10. Magnussen 0.007s (0.181s)



#7 tyker

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Posted 29 August 2020 - 16:02

After Spa (Spa Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.62s (0.508s)

02. Verstappen 0.51s (0.415s)

03. Gasly 0.34s (-0.015s)

04. Leclerc 0.33s (0.295s)

05. Ricciardo 0.32s (0.335s)

06. Hamilton 0.15s (0.511s)

07. Raikkonen 0.11s (0.207s)

08. Grosjean 0.07s (0.476s)

09. Norris 0.06s (-0.219s)

10. Stroll 0s (0.041s)



#8 tyker

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 16:32

After Monza (Monza Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.55s (0.13s)

02. Verstappen 0.47s (0.224s)

03. Leclerc 0.39s (0.708s)

04. Gasly 0.33s (0.26s)

05. Ricciardo 0.31s (0.203s)

06. Hamilton 0.14s (0.065s)

07. Raikkonen 0.13s (0.196s)

08. Perez 0.04s (0.206s)

09. Norris 0.03s (-0.125s)

10. Grosjean 0.02s (-0.27s)



#9 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 04:04

Some real significant averages there in the top 5. It puts into perspective the job Bottas is doing against Hamilton, Valtteri is seriously quick. Sure he lacks certain "champion qualities" but he's fast. You can't question that.

Miles ahead of the likes of Ocon, Vettel and Albon. Additionally it shows the strength of Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo.

#10 ARTGP

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 04:56

Some real significant averages there in the top 5. It puts into perspective the job Bottas is doing against Hamilton, Valtteri is seriously quick. Sure he lacks certain "champion qualities" but he's fast. You can't question that.

Miles ahead of the likes of Ocon, Vettel and Albon. Additionally it shows the strength of Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo.

 

Only those 3? What about Gasly and Russell?  :p



#11 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 05:04

Only those 3? What about Gasly and Russell? :p

They're going nicely too. But I have question marks over the quality of their teammates, so it's hard to gauge just how good they've been. It's hard to get a read on Russell's ultimate level, not so much Gasly given his time at Red Bull.

#12 tyker

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 19:02

After Mugello (Mugello Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.49s (0.088s)

02. Verstappen 0.47s (0.443s)

03. Leclerc 0.41s (0.534s)

04. Ricciardo 0.27s (0.054s)

05. Gasly 0.25s (-0.297s)

06. Raikkonen 0.131s (0.161s)

07. Hamilton 0.13s (0.059s)

08. Grosjean 0.06s (0.279s)

09. Perez 0.03s (-0.04s)

10. Norris 0.01s (-0.118s)


Edited by tyker, 13 September 2020 - 22:00.


#13 vlado

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 21:04

Awesome thread. Thanks for the work

#14 Leibowitz

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 21:58

Massive advantage for Lec

#15 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 03:42

Russell, Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo are just miles ahead on pure speed.

In F1, anything that's 3 tenths or more, means you're on another planet. And they regularly are.

#16 Gambelli

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 05:39

I think this is as fair as you can make it, but yesterday is a classic example where you can get an anomaly.

 

Because Ocon bins it in Q3, you go back to Q2, where Dan put in such a great first lap, he parked it and didn't come out for a 2nd run, whereas Ocon did, got a time very close to Ricciardo, which means the season average between the two drops...

 

No big drama, just interesting how every so often you can get this quirk which shifts things a little in the wrong direction.

 

And, no, I don't have a better way to do it....



#17 Gambelli

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 05:41

To me the other standouts are Latifi starting to close the gap, Russel left the door open for him today but he just missed out, and Perez and Stroll, nothing to split them, Stroll driving well in qualifying these days relatively speaking.



#18 renzmann

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 06:21

I know this might sound weird, but I expected Russell to be further ahead of Latifi before the season. On paper, Latifi is the weakest driver by far and Russell's golden boy status is mostly due to his quali skills. Also, Latifi's the rookie. You'd expect Russell to beat this list by a mile, yet Verstappen's and Leclerc's gap to their respective teammates is along the same lines as Russell's performance.

 

Another observation worth mentioning is that anything in the realm of a .3 s gap is quite massive. The performances at the top of the list shouldn't divert us from the fact Ricciardo and Gasly are doing splendidly (or their teammates are failing).



#19 Sid04

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 10:21

After Monza (Monza Difference)

01. Russell 0.55s (0.13s)
02. Verstappen 0.47s (0.224s)
03. Leclerc 0.39s (0.708s)
04. Gasly 0.33s (0.26s)
05. Ricciardo 0.31s (0.203s)
06. Hamilton 0.14s (0.065s)
07. Raikkonen 0.13s (0.196s)
08. Perez 0.04s (0.206s)
09. Norris 0.03s (-0.125s)
10. Grosjean 0.02s (-0.27s)

I hope you have taken first laps of Vet and Lec as the second lap was aborted for Vettel due to traffic issue..whereas Leclerc did a proper second run..I meant Italian grand prix in Monza

Edited by Sid04, 13 September 2020 - 11:00.


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#20 tyker

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 21:42

Awesome thread. Thanks for the work

Thank you :up:



#21 tyker

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 21:59

I think this is as fair as you can make it, but yesterday is a classic example where you can get an anomaly.

 

Because Ocon bins it in Q3, you go back to Q2, where Dan put in such a great first lap, he parked it and didn't come out for a 2nd run, whereas Ocon did, got a time very close to Ricciardo, which means the season average between the two drops...

 

No big drama, just interesting how every so often you can get this quirk which shifts things a little in the wrong direction.

 

And, no, I don't have a better way to do it....

Ricciardo did post a time in Q3, but thanks for keeping me on my toes and not realising that most of the fastest laps came in Q2, with the one engine mode we're not seeing the big steps between the sessions, the times are very similar and in my haste I need to make two slight corrections.



#22 tyker

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Posted 13 September 2020 - 22:12

I hope you have taken first laps of Vet and Lec as the second lap was aborted for Vettel due to traffic issue..whereas Leclerc did a proper second run..I meant Italian grand prix in Monza

I simply took a dim view of Vettel trying to find a tow for his second run, he compromised himself.

 

Vettel towed Leclerc around for the first run, Vettel did a 1:21.1 and Leclerc did a 1:20.9, however Leclerc's lap was disallowed for track limits. Leclerc then did a second run on his own without a tow and posted a 1:20.6, good enough for Q2.

 

They both went out again, Leclerc posted a 1:20.4, Vettel was unable to improve his time because he was held up in the traffic he was trying to use for a tow, could he have not simply done a lap like Leclerc without a tow?


Edited by tyker, 13 September 2020 - 22:17.


#23 tyker

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Posted 26 September 2020 - 14:11

After Sochi (Sochi Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.55s (1.046s)

02. Verstappen 0.54s (1.141s)

03. Leclerc 0.4s (0.37s)

04. Ricciardo 0.29s (0.406s)

05. Gasly 0.24s (0.11s)

06. Hamilton 0.19s (0.652s)

07. Perez 0.07s (0.334s)

08. Grosjean 0.06s (0.089s)

09. Raikkonen 0.04s (-0.673s)

10. Sainz 0s (0.124s)



#24 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 September 2020 - 08:52

I wonder if Latifi would be closer to Verstappen than Albon...

Edited by SenorSjon, 27 September 2020 - 08:52.


#25 Lights

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Posted 27 September 2020 - 08:56

I wonder if Latifi would be closer to Verstappen than Albon...

 

If it turns out Russell is quicker than Verstappen, then yeah, probably Latifi would be closer than Albon.



#26 Marklar

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Posted 27 September 2020 - 09:00

for the record I dont think that he would be closer, but usually the gaps are bigger in slower cars between team mates, so it wouldnt automatically mean that Russell is quicker than Verstappen  :p



#27 tyker

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 14:59

After Nurburgring (Nurburgring Difference)

 

01. Verstappen 0.54s (0.58s)

02. Russell 0.52s (0.248s)

03. Leclerc 0.41s (0.498s)

04. Ricciardo 0.27s (0.146s)

05. Gasly 0.22s (0.072s)

06. Hamilton 0.16s (-0.121s)

07. Perez 0.07s (-)

08. Grosjean 0.02s (-0.321s)

09. Raikkonen 0.01s (-0.285s)

10.Norris 0s (0.045s)



#28 Dan333SP

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 13:57

After Nurburgring (Nurburgring Difference)

 

01. Verstappen 0.54s (0.58s)

02. Russell 0.52s (0.248s)

03. Leclerc 0.41s (0.498s)

04. Ricciardo 0.27s (0.146s)

05. Gasly 0.22s (0.072s)

06. Hamilton 0.16s (-0.121s)

07. Perez 0.07s (-)

08. Grosjean 0.02s (-0.321s)

09. Raikkonen 0.01s (-0.285s)

10.Norris 0s (0.045s)

 

So the average Q gap between Lando and Carlos is literally 0.00 after 11 races? That's incredible. 



#29 messy

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 14:45

I find it amazing how much Vettel is underperforming this year. Will he really be able to turn it back on when he pulls on a pair of Aston Martin overalls instead? He and Leclerc were nip and tuck in 2019 but this year Charles is away and gone. 



#30 Requiem84

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 14:46

Isn't Ocon extremely disappointing too? 

 

0,3 behind Ricciardo is a very very big gap for someone who has been hailed of one of the solid talents of his generation. 



#31 William Hunt

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 14:48

So the average Q gap between Lando and Carlos is literally 0.00 after 11 races? That's incredible. 

 

And between Raikkönen and Giovinazzi 0.01 and between Grosjean and Magnussen 0.02!

 

Considering the praise Kimi gets it shows that Antonio is underrated


Edited by William Hunt, 13 October 2020 - 14:49.


#32 messy

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 14:53

Isn't Ocon extremely disappointing too? 

 

0,3 behind Ricciardo is a very very big gap for someone who has been hailed of one of the solid talents of his generation. 

 

He's had a really lame year by most measures, Ocon. Thing is, I really think that it's as much down to circumstance as genuinely being any worse than he was in his Force India days. Ricciardo is really, really strong, already established in that team and so being able to outperform Perez regularly is hardly any guarantee that you'll be able to beat DR too. 



#33 Astandahl

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 15:37

After Nurburgring (Nurburgring Difference)

 

01. Verstappen 0.54s (0.58s)

02. Russell 0.52s (0.248s)

03. Leclerc 0.41s (0.498s)

04. Ricciardo 0.27s (0.146s)

05. Gasly 0.22s (0.072s)

06. Hamilton 0.16s (-0.121s)

07. Perez 0.07s (-)

08. Grosjean 0.02s (-0.321s)

09. Raikkonen 0.01s (-0.285s)

10.Norris 0s (0.045s)

Are you sure the Nurb gap is correct for Leclerc and Vettel?  Because i have as a fastest lap for the first : 1:26.035 and for Vettel: 1:26.738.


Edited by Astandahl, 13 October 2020 - 15:42.


#34 Vesuvius

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 15:43

Are you sure the Nurb gap is corrected for Leclerc and Vettel? Because i have as a fastest lap for the first : 1:26.035 and for Vettel: 1:26.738.


Times are taken from session were both were driving (Q2), so Leclerc did 1,26,240.

Edited by Vesuvius, 13 October 2020 - 15:43.


#35 Astandahl

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 15:44

Times are taken from session were both were driving (Q2), so Leclerc did 1,26,240.

Oh yeah. That makes sense.



#36 tyker

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 18:36

So the average Q gap between Lando and Carlos is literally 0.00 after 11 races? That's incredible. 

It's actually 0.0038s, I just cap it at hundredths, I think that's a small enough measurement.


Edited by tyker, 13 October 2020 - 18:45.


#37 tyker

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 18:45

Times are taken from session were both were driving (Q2), so Leclerc did 1,26,240.

Cheers :up:



#38 Jops14

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:29

He's had a really lame year by most measures, Ocon. Thing is, I really think that it's as much down to circumstance as genuinely being any worse than he was in his Force India days. Ricciardo is really, really strong, already established in that team and so being able to outperform Perez regularly is hardly any guarantee that you'll be able to beat DR too.

Yeah especially when you dont even regularly beat Perez. I seem to remember Perez finishing ahead more often than not, and picking up the flashier results, Ocon was overrated. (Also blame him for Azerbaijan 2017)
13-7 to Perez first year and 16-5 to Ocon second year
Wow ocon actually fonished ahead in races of Perez when they both finished - a number of those were both outside thenpoints thiugh and Perez scored higher. Even removing Perez podium he only finishes 2 points behind Ocon
(Researching this as i type it) the intersting thing is whenever there was a chance for big points, it was always Perez ahead of Ocon. But after all that i dont think Ocon is on Perez level let alone Danny Ric

#39 ARTGP

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:54

And between Raikkönen and Giovinazzi 0.01 and between Grosjean and Magnussen 0.02!

 

Considering the praise Kimi gets it shows that Antonio is underrated

 

Averages are an extremely limited way to assess performance unless you have a very large set of data points (so  10 GP rounds definetely isn't enough). I don't know the stats, but it would only take 1 or 2 outlier weekends to skew the true picture.


Edited by ARTGP, 14 October 2020 - 07:56.


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#40 Marklar

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:57

And between Raikkönen and Giovinazzi 0.01 and between Grosjean and Magnussen 0.02!

Considering the praise Kimi gets it shows that Antonio is underrated

its more his race day performance people argue about

#41 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 17:41

so being able to outperform Perez regularly is hardly any guarantee that you'll be able to beat DR too. 

especially when he wasn't able to outperform Perez regularly, lol



#42 tyker

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Posted 24 October 2020 - 16:45

After Portimao (Portimao Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.55s (0.846s)

02. Verstappen 0.54s (0.532s)

03. Leclerc 0.38s (0.079s)

04. Ricciardo 0.26s (0.133s)

05. Gasly 0.25s (0.519s)

06. Hamilton 0.13s (-0.186s)

07. Perez 0,12s (0.497s)

08. Grosjean 0.03s (0.144s)

09. Raikkonen 0.02s (0.122s)

10. Sainz 0.01s (0.138s)



#43 FTB

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Posted 24 October 2020 - 18:59

The track conditions were probably worse in Q3 ( only Hamilton and Leclerc improved, and even Hamilton wasn't as fast as Bottas in Q2 ), so I think you could have taken Leclerc's best lap as 1:17.090.



#44 w1Y

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 09:11

I think its clear there are 5ish next gen talents that need to be nurtured into competitive cars.

Russel
Max
Le clerc
Norris
Gasly

#45 shure

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 10:50

I think its clear there are 5ish next gen talents that need to be nurtured into competitive cars.

Russel
Max
Le clerc
Norris
Gasly

I'm not so sure about Gasly.  I think he's a decent driver  but not a superstar talent.

 

I'm still undecided on Norris, too, tbh.  I think he's  very good but seems to be lacking that ultimate killer instinct that you clearly see in Max and Charles.  Those two I'd put well above the others



#46 ARTGP

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:00

I think its clear there are 5ish next gen talents that need to be nurtured into competitive cars.

Russel
Max
Le clerc
Norris
Gasly

 

 

Has Norris really outshone Sainz to a level that one gets mentioned and not the other? I'm not proposing either of them deserve to be on the list, but if 1 is, then seems like the other should also


Edited by ARTGP, 25 October 2020 - 11:02.


#47 tyker

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 18:01

The track conditions were probably worse in Q3 ( only Hamilton and Leclerc improved, and even Hamilton wasn't as fast as Bottas in Q2 ), so I think you could have taken Leclerc's best lap as 1:17.090.

I know it was unusual circumstances but still that would perhaps be unfairly allowing Leclerc more qualifying attempts than Vettel in particular on the soft tyres, let's not forget that Vettel did not use soft tyres in Q2.



#48 TheAviator

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 14:40

I know it was unusual circumstances but still that would perhaps be unfairly allowing Leclerc more qualifying attempts than Vettel in particular on the soft tyres, let's not forget that Vettel did not use soft tyres in Q2.

Tbh this makes 0 sense to me. I would assume best way to compare quali pace is to compare it in last session both were on track. Taking Sebs Q1 (where he had extra run on S tires) is not exactly fair to Charles who already had good enough lap and didnt have to get out again.

So yea, my opinion is the only way to compare quali pace is to take best laps from last session they ran together. This way you will still get some inconsistency (duo to fact some might have to run additionally with softer tires duo to slow 1st lap, but at least its same session) but at least it wont be completely missleading like this one.

Edited by TheAviator, 31 October 2020 - 14:41.


#49 timmy bolt

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 17:59

Has Norris really outshone Sainz to a level that one gets mentioned and not the other? I'm not proposing either of them deserve to be on the list, but if 1 is, then seems like the other should also


I think Sainz age kinda removes him from that "generation".

#50 tyker

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 20:27

After Imola (Imola Difference)

 

01. Verstappen 0.53s (0.396s)

02. Russell 0.52s (0.227s)

03. Leclerc 0.38s (0.368s)

04. Ricciardo 0.26s (0.248s)

05. Gasly 0.24s (0.194s)

06. Perez 0.16s (0.433s)

07. Hamilton 0.11s (-0.097s)

08. Raikkonen 0.04s (0.255s)

09. Grosjean 0.03s (0.021s)

10. Sainz 0s (-0.097s)