72 replies to this topic

[tyker]

After Bahrain (Bahrain Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.55s (0.888s)

02. Verstappen 0.54s (0.596s)

03. Leclerc 0.35s (0.005s)

04. Ricciardo 0.241s (0.002s)

05. Gasly 0.238s (0.17s)

06. Perez 0.16s (-)*

07. Hamilton 0.12s (0.289s)

08. Grosjean 0.03s (-0.027s)

09. Raikkonen 0.01s (-0.319s)

10. Sainz 0s (-)*

 

*No representative time

Edited by tyker, 29 November 2020 - 00:53.

[tyker]

After Sakhir (Sakhir Difference)

 

01. Russell 0.55s (-)

02. Verstappen 0.53s (0.379s)

03. Leclerc 0.35s (0.35s)

04. Ricciardo 0.23s (0.124s)

05. Gasly 0.22s (-0.085s)

06. Perez 0.15s (0.053s)

07. Hamilton 0.12s (-)

08. Sainz 0.029s (0.376s)

09. Grosjean 0.027s (-)

10. Giovinazzi 0.021s (0.44s)

[tyker]

Final Standings (Abu Dhabi Difference) Head to Head

 

01. Russell 0.54s (0.398s) 14-0

02. Verstappen 0.51s (0.325s) 15-0

03. Leclerc 0.38s (0.75s) 14-1

04. Ricciardo 0.21s (-0.047s) 14-1

05. Gasly 0.18s (-0.279s) 11-4

06. Perez 0.15s (-) 8-3

07. Hamilton 0.11s (-0.061s) 8-6

08. Giovinazzi 0.05s (0.48s) 9-6

09. Grosjean 0.03s (-) 7-6

10. Sainz 0s (-0.318s) 7-7

Edited by tyker, 12 December 2020 - 15:26.

[charly0418]

Perez Q1 lap would have made him P7 in Q3 lol

[Augurk]

Perez Q1 lap would have made him P7 in Q3 lol

I think the track got a bit slower though.

[tyker]

Perez Q1 lap would have made him P7 in Q3 lol

I totally missed that, I have to give Perez credit for posting a lap faster than Stroll managed but I won't use the average because surely Perez would have gone faster and if I use the lap it will lower his overall average.

[paipa]

Final Standings (Abu Dhabi Difference) Head to Head

 

07. Hamilton 0.11s (-0.061s) 8-6

Never mind their actual qualifying head-to-head was 11-5 with no issues for either, and 16/16 Q3 appearances for both. I get that you exclude wet sessions and include Q1-Q2 regardless of whether you need to, but surely it wouldn't hurt to put the actual results at the end of the line, at least for reference. Another glaring one is LEC-VET who were 13-4 instead of 14-1.

[tyker]

Never mind their actual qualifying head-to-head was 11-5 with no issues for either, and 16/16 Q3 appearances for both. I get that you exclude wet sessions and include Q1-Q2 regardless of whether you need to, but surely it wouldn't hurt to put the actual results at the end of the line, at least for reference. Another glaring one is LEC-VET who were 13-4 instead of 14-1.

I'm just looking to determine ultimate one lap pace, the record books themselves will give the stats that you my find more agreeable, like they will credit Stroll for out qualifying Perez in Abu Dhabi.

[mclarensmps]

Them McLaren drivers though...

[jAnO76]

There were 17 races right?

[tyker]

There were 17 races right?

The opening post explains my methodology.

[Mebene]

I made a compilation of 2020 qualifications with a visual rendering.

I took the times of the last session where both teamates competed at least one lap. With no correction.

 

I capped the gaps at 2s (There were larger gaps at wet quali in Turkey)

 

 

[Kalmake]

Graph doesn't show Stroll and Grosjean missing events.

[Mebene]

Graph doesn't show Stroll and Grosjean missing events.

yes I missed those

 

so it's GRO/FIT with FIT on the last two races. I will check for STROLL

[tourister46a]

Here are the qualifying gaps after the first 3 races of 2021. I tried to use a similar method to tyker, so all your ire should be directed to said user . Since I don't really know what I am doing, I didn't want to create a separate topic.

 

1. Gasly - Tsunoda: 0.607s

2. Schumacher - Mazepin: 0.601s

3. Russell - Latifi: 0.480s

4. Norris - Ricciardo: 0.316s

5. Giovinazzi - Raikkonen: 0.305s

6. Hamilton - Bottas: 0.281s

7. Leclerc - Sainz: 0.255s

8. Stroll - Vettel: 0.184s

9. Ocon - Alonso: 0.162s

10. Verstappen - Perez: 0.161s

 

Bahrain notes:

- Used Sainz's Q2 lap which was 2 tenths faster than his Q3

- Used Tsunoda's Q1 lap and Gasly's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps (though Tsunoda was out in Q2)

 

Imola notes:

- Bottas's Q1 lap was used against Lewis's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps. Bottas was slower in Q3 on the same type of tyre.

- Leclerc's Q2 lap was used. He was about 0.07 faster in Q3. Sainz was out in Q2

- No lap by Tsunoda. Not counted in the averages

 

Portugal notes:

- Bottas's Q3 lap on softs was compared with Lewis's Q2 lap on mediums, giving Lewis a win. Bottas's Q2 lap on mediums was about 0.11 slower than his Q3 effort. 

- Sainz's and Leclerc's Q2 efforts were used, giving Leclerc a win

- Max and Perez's Q2 efforts were used, their respective fastest laps set on the mediums

[shure]

Here are the qualifying gaps after the first 3 races of 2021. I tried to use a similar method to tyker, so all your ire should be directed to said user . Since I don't really know what I am doing, I didn't want to create a separate topic.

 

1. Gasly - Tsunoda: 0.607s

2. Schumacher - Mazepin: 0.601s

3. Russell - Latifi: 0.480s

4. Norris - Ricciardo: 0.316s

5. Giovinazzi - Raikkonen: 0.305s

6. Hamilton - Bottas: 0.281s

7. Leclerc - Sainz: 0.255s

8. Stroll - Vettel: 0.184s

9. Ocon - Alonso: 0.162s

10. Verstappen - Perez: 0.161s

 

Bahrain notes:

- Used Sainz's Q2 lap which was 2 tenths faster than his Q3

- Used Tsunoda's Q1 lap and Gasly's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps (though Tsunoda was out in Q2)

 

Imola notes:

- Bottas's Q1 lap was used against Lewis's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps. Bottas was slower in Q3 on the same type of tyre.

- Leclerc's Q2 lap was used. He was about 0.07 faster in Q3. Sainz was out in Q2

- No lap by Tsunoda. Not counted in the averages

 

Portugal notes:

- Bottas's Q3 lap on softs was compared with Lewis's Q2 lap on mediums, giving Lewis a win. Bottas's Q2 lap on mediums was about 0.11 slower than his Q3 effort. 

- Sainz's and Leclerc's Q2 efforts were used, giving Leclerc a win

- Max and Perez's Q2 efforts were used, their respective fastest laps set on the mediums

I may have missed in earlier explanations, but why use different qualifying sessions between team mates (eg BOT/HAM Imola, Portimao; SAI/LEC Bahrein, GAS/TSU Bahrein)?  They're generally going to approach eg Q1 differently to Q3, so not really representative to compare across different sessions I should have thought?

[Dan333SP]

Here are the qualifying gaps after the first 3 races of 2021. I tried to use a similar method to tyker, so all your ire should be directed to said user . Since I don't really know what I am doing, I didn't want to create a separate topic.

 

1. Gasly - Tsunoda: 0.607s

2. Schumacher - Mazepin: 0.601s

3. Russell - Latifi: 0.480s

4. Norris - Ricciardo: 0.316s

5. Giovinazzi - Raikkonen: 0.305s

6. Hamilton - Bottas: 0.281s

7. Leclerc - Sainz: 0.255s

8. Stroll - Vettel: 0.184s

9. Ocon - Alonso: 0.162s

10. Verstappen - Perez: 0.161s

 

Bahrain notes:

- Used Sainz's Q2 lap which was 2 tenths faster than his Q3

- Used Tsunoda's Q1 lap and Gasly's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps (though Tsunoda was out in Q2)

 

Imola notes:

- Bottas's Q1 lap was used against Lewis's Q3 lap, their respective fastest laps. Bottas was slower in Q3 on the same type of tyre.

- Leclerc's Q2 lap was used. He was about 0.07 faster in Q3. Sainz was out in Q2

- No lap by Tsunoda. Not counted in the averages

 

Portugal notes:

- Bottas's Q3 lap on softs was compared with Lewis's Q2 lap on mediums, giving Lewis a win. Bottas's Q2 lap on mediums was about 0.11 slower than his Q3 effort. 

- Sainz's and Leclerc's Q2 efforts were used, giving Leclerc a win

- Max and Perez's Q2 efforts were used, their respective fastest laps set on the mediums

 

I know the sample size is tiny, but it's amusing to me how a number of people were groaning about how Perez was no real upgrade from Albon, and that Yuki is the most exciting rookie since Verstappen. I know it's early days for both, but Perez has done quite well IMO and Yuki remains a long way off the pace of Gasly. 

[Astandahl]

I know the sample size is tiny, but it's amusing to me how a number of people were groaning about how Perez was no real upgrade from Albon, and that Yuki is the most exciting rookie since Verstappen. I know it's early days for both, but Perez has done quite well IMO and Yuki remains a long way off the pace of Gasly. 

Tsunoda has been terrible in these 3 races but is too early. Leclerc also struggled at the beginning because of his oversteer set up.

[William Hunt]

Tsunoda had a good race on his debut with a point score, in Imola he made driver errors but his race pace was pretty good, in Portimao however his race pas was not good and he was too far behind Gasly in the race: that was really dissapointing but let's not forget how young he is, how good Pierre's form currently is and that he is a rookie.

[William Hunt]

 

"Portugal notes:

- Bottas's Q3 lap on softs was compared with Lewis's Q2 lap on mediums, giving Lewis a win. Bottas's Q2 lap on mediums was about 0.11 slower than his Q3 effort. 

- Sainz's and Leclerc's Q2 efforts were used, giving Leclerc a win

- Max and Perez's Q2 efforts were used, their respective fastest laps set on the mediums"

 

Remark: in Portugal qualifying the mediums worked better as the softs because it took too long / was too difficult to get the temperature in the softs, that is why so many (even most) drivers decided to do their last Q3 (or Q2) run on mediums and not on sodts. So I totally disagree that Lewis scored a 'win' against Bottas here because the mediums were the better choice because it was easier to get them up to temperature!

Bottas scored that pole fairly, it wasn't a win for Lewis: both raced on the same track in the same conditions and both were free to choose their tyres. Bottas scored a win, not Lewis!

That some drivers were slower in Q3 or as a previous run was also caused by the strong wind that sometimes suddenly changed direction.

[tourister46a]

I may have missed in earlier explanations, but why use different qualifying sessions between team mates (eg BOT/HAM Imola, Portimao; SAI/LEC Bahrein, GAS/TSU Bahrein)?  They're generally going to approach eg Q1 differently to Q3, so not really representative to compare across different sessions I should have thought?

 

 

Yeah, they don't approach the sessions the same, but since I am picking a time from earlier sessions (Q1 or Q2) only if that time is the fastest lap, it should be fine.  It might be unfair to compare a driver who got expelled in Q1 with their teammate's time in Q3, for example. I avoided this in many cases. For example, Dany Ric vs Lando in Portugal, Ocon v Alonso, Vettel vs Stroll etc.

 

Gasly vs Tsunoda in Bahrain seemed like a special case. Q1 times: GAS 1:30.8, TSU: 1:30.6. Q2: GAS 1:30.5, TSU: 1:31.2, Q3: GAS: 1:29.8. 

 

Tsunoda set his fastest lap in Q1, but using Gasly's slower time would be unfair. Gasly destroyed him in Q2 (was Tsunoda also on Mediums?). Gasly was pretty fast on the softs in Q3. I could have compared their Q2 times but we generally want to compare their ultimate speeds, so I used Tsunoda's Q1 time of 1:30.6 vs Gasly's Q3 time of 1:29.8. The difference of 0.8 seconds was similar to their Q2 difference of 0.7seconds

 

 

Tyker's OP explains the rules:

 

- Dry qualifying sessions only

 

- Use the fastest time of a driver whether it is from Q1, Q2 or Q3

 

- Teammates should have driven in the same qualifying segments: If I use a driver's lap from Q1, does it mean I should also use their teammate's lap from Q1, even if they drove together in other sessions? Probably not. So, it is fine to use Hamilton's fastest lap from Q3 vs Bottas's lap in Q1 in Imola because Bottas also competed in Q3. Sainz's Q2 lap vs Leclerc's Q3 lap in Bahrain also falls in this bracket. For Sainz vs Leclerc in Imola, I didn't use Leclerc's slightly faster lap from Q3 because Sainz didn't take part in it, but mostly because I was trying to be biased towards Sainz Remember that I could see the future where poor Sainz ended up "losing" to Leclerc in Portugal despite outqualifying him.

 

- Should be representative i.e the driver should be pushing: This one is a little subjective but I did the best I could.

Edited by tourister46a, 03 May 2021 - 14:23.

[tourister46a]

 

 

"Portugal notes:

- Bottas's Q3 lap on softs was compared with Lewis's Q2 lap on mediums, giving Lewis a win. Bottas's Q2 lap on mediums was about 0.11 slower than his Q3 effort. 

- Sainz's and Leclerc's Q2 efforts were used, giving Leclerc a win

- Max and Perez's Q2 efforts were used, their respective fastest laps set on the mediums"

 

Remark: in Portugal qualifying the mediums worked better as the softs because it took too long / was too difficult to get the temperature in the softs, that is why so many (even most) drivers decided to do their last Q3 (or Q2) run on mediums and not on sodts. So I totally disagree that Lewis scored a 'win' against Bottas here because the mediums were the better choice because it was easier to get them up to temperature!

Bottas scored that pole fairly, it wasn't a win for Lewis: both raced on the same track in the same conditions and both were free to choose their tyres. Bottas scored a win, not Lewis!

That some drivers were slower in Q3 or as a previous run was also caused by the strong wind that sometimes suddenly changed direction.

 

 

Generally agree with you, but it has been the case in earlier versions of this thread that a driver who has been outqualified fair and square gets marked with a positive, because their ultimate lap time was faster. Rarely happened with the Mercs because of their party mode deployment in Q3, but fairly common from those giving it their all in Q2, e.g.

Edited by tourister46a, 03 May 2021 - 17:31.

[Nigol]

It makes more sense to compare the last session both drivers competed in. So in case of Mercedes and the Last Race, Q3 only.