1982 replies to this topic

[JeePee]

This is quite misleading. You conveniently omit the fact that Hamilton was stuck behind Rosberg for the first 15 laps of the race. Once Rosberg let Hamilton through his pace increased by 2 seconds per lap and Hamilton began catching Ricciardo. 

That whole post is misleading.

 

Hungary 2016 Ricciardo and Max qualifed 11th and 12th in the wet (Q1). Session was red flagged for a long time and Q3 was practically dry.

USA 2015 in the wet Ricciardo was trailing Kvyat in 4th, but he came alive when a dry line came up (Kvyat was then also quicker than the Mercs, who were eating Inters). Later that race RIC was also overtaken by Verstappen (in a Toro Rosso).

Hungary 2014 Ricciardo fell back from P2 to P6 in the wet. When it got dryer he went on to win the race.

Monaco 2016 Verstappen ruined his weekend a day earlier. In the race he was lappen a lot quicker than Ricciardo when in free air.

Edited by JeePee, 04 August 2020 - 15:32.

[Gambelli]

That whole post is misleading.

 

Hungary 2016 Ricciardo and Max qualifed 11th and 12th in the wet (Q1). Session was red flagged for a long time and Q3 was practically dry.

USA 2015 in the wet Ricciardo was trailing Kvyat in 4th, but he came alive when a dry line came up (Kvyat was then also quicker than the Mercs, who were eating Inters). Later that race RIC was also overtaken by Verstappen (in a Toro Rosso).

Hungary 2014 Ricciardo fell back from P2 to P6 in the wet. When it got dryer he went on to win the race.

Monaco 2016 Verstappen ruined his weekend a day earlier. In the race he was lappen a lot quicker than Ricciardo when in free air.

 

Oh god.....

 

And where, prey tell, did Max finish that day?

 

You can't possibly call someone out on writing a manipulative post, then use an example of where Max was marginally quicker, and yes, thats all it was, for a few laps, and yes, thats all it was, before he then went on to, yet again, fence the car.

 

I'm a big fan of Max, I think he's the best out there, but come on, that was a very poor example....

[THEWALL]

Is Lewis the GOAT 3 wheel driver?

[Clatter]

Is Lewis the GOAT 3 wheel driver?

 

No, Bottas was quicker.

[absinthedude]

Is Lewis the GOAT 3 wheel driver?

 

No, you need to look at Morgan three-wheeler racers for that. Racing in 1930s machines with three wheels, powerful engines, no seat belts or other safety equipment....

[Loosenut]

Gilles Villeneuve was the greatest 3 wheel driver.. 

[Requiem84]

https://streamable.com/s3x2lg

Very painful.

[Ivanhoe]

Gilles Villeneuve was the greatest 3 wheel driver.. 

That was even on two wheels!

[kernel]

No, Bottas was quicker.

Too bad he’s not quicker when it matters, ie., on 4 wheels!

[milestone 11]

Schumi at Spa '98 has to be at No:1

[JG]

My vote goes to Christian Fittipaldi at Monza 1993 for GOAT. 3 Wheeler.

[ExEd]

VRossi did more and all in two wheels . GOATer!

[Clatter]

VRossi did more and all in two wheels . GOATer!

 

That's meaningless as the vehicle was designed that way. If one of his wheels had fallen off and he still managed to get to the end of the race then you would be onto something. Especially if it was the rear wheel that was missing.

[Ivanhoe]

Rossi raced one wheel many times 

[PlayboyRacer]

I do. Leclerc is still on his learning curve.

Sarcasm isn't your strong point.

[P123]

That was even on two wheels!

 

Buemi tried that.  Didn't work out.

[Garndell]

Bottas might have been faster on 3 tyres but he couldn't make it to the last lap before he had to try.  Honourable mention for Seb Buemi, China 2010. Two wheels on his wagon.

 

[Atreiu]

Sarcasm isn't your strong point.

Oh, really?

[theblackangus]

 

1. You had drivers like Schuey and Alonso who could easily do the championship calculus, and rather than take the risk of attempting an overtake for the lead, they'd ride home for a 2nd. Both drivers had more than enough talent to attempt the brilliant overtake, but when you're also fighting for a title, safe is better. If you watched prior to the 1st place points boost, you should have seen this yourself. It disincentivizes risk.
2. One failure weighs much more heavily in a situation where there is no benefit to finishing higher, because it now takes you that much longer to claw back the points. Bottas is 30 points out of it, but he can claw that back in 4 races, even if Lewis is 2nd, by winning and getting FL. If you shrink the winner bonus back to the proportions of 2003-2009, then it would only be a 5 pt bonus for winning, and would take Bottas 5 races with FLs to recoup. The current points system actually makes it easier to close ground through personal brilliance, than what we had in the 2000s. There's a reason the point system was changed, and it was for the better. The FL bonus also helps this further.

 

Changing the points system won't stop Mercedes from winning. It would just drag out the inevitable. Big budgets have little to do with reliability. It's more down to the regulations, and how much the teams can manage their engines. Midfield cars will have less margin than top team. Mercedes has had great reliability due in part to their ability to build a lead and then manage the pace by turning down the engine. They manufacture their reliability through efficiencies elsewhere in the car. Would it really be better if Max won a title by getting podiums in every race, and winning 2-3, while Lewis and Bottas dominated the season with 15+ wins combined, and only 1-2 unforced retirements? Is that a championship anyone wants? Kimi got one like that in 2007. We can forgive it because (a) Kimi is awesome and was due a title, and (b) the McLarens ended up being cheaters anyway, so didn't deserve to win. But the McLaren was the better car in 2007, and if we had the points system of today, I believe both Lewis and Alonso would've finished ahead of Kimi in the WDC.

 

Many people look back at Kimi's 1 WDC, and have valid reason to find fault in it. He wasn't the best driver that season, and the Ferrari wasn't the best car. Champions should be the best, and there shouldn't be questions about worthiness when the deal is done. In 2016, there was unreliability for Lewis, but you couldn't question Nico's title because he earned it. His stats that season were a match for Lewis, and he didn't suffer the same early-season race start woes that inevitably played a big role in Lewis losing out. The points were close, but not because of the point system, but because Lewis was almost able to overcome early gaffes through personal brilliance. If you want a watered-down point system, look at NASCAR where a driver's championship is so meaningless they had to add a playoff system to try to add value. I say no thanks to champion by attrition.

 

1. Nothing wrong with winning by strategy. People don't take much risk now either because of the greater detriment caused by a single failure. Notice the aggressiveness goes up as you go down the field and the points gaps decrease.

2. It only makes it easier when you are in the exact same equipment, on the flip side there is a much smaller possibility of anyone winning who is not in the best car because of the points gap. Ill take more people with a chance to win the WDC every day.

 

This isn't about a particular team or driver as such, as I have alot of respect for Ham (less for Merc because they just outspent everyone to win) and think he is certainly one of the best ever. Its more about rules that enable people to challenge the top driver, we don't really know how good Lewis is because only his teammate can challenge him.  He needs to be able show that he is better than Max, Lec, Vettel, etc over the years wth close fighting for his legacy and our entertainment!

The points system, the car rules, the race format, etc combined have all contributed to a very poor formula for over a decade and it needs to stop.

 

I think the 2022 car format and spending cap will be great....except they already let the top teams spend for years on the 2022 format so we will have this same problem over again and with the cost cap (good) it will result in the same as today or worse.

 

The cost cap needed to start this year, and then the 2022 formula should have been announced to give everyone a more equal footing.

Also a formula should only last 3-4 years max. Let the formula change a lot to enable the drivers to show they are really the best and can drive anything thrown at them!

[ExEd]

https://streamable.com/s3x2lg

Very painful.

 

Ouch...the silence is deafening.

[rattymouse]

No, Bottas was quicker.

 

He finished out of the points.

[Clatter]

 

He finished out of the points.

 

And was that his fault?

[GlenWatkins]

VRossi did more and all in two wheels . GOATer!

 

 

Let's not for get Alonso in Azerbaijan 2018

[CountDooku]

You mean like in Hockenheim last year? And wet weather is an equalizer in terms of engine power, not in terms of downforce and mechanical grip, in which the W11 also seems to excel.

Edit: if your assumption of wet weather being an equalizer was right, Verstappen would be way ahead of Bottas, Ricciardo and Leclerc. With saying he's on their level you're contradicting yourself. You're obviouslly not a fan, should really try to hide it a bit better in your posts or just outright admit it. It's clearly full of bias and pre-assumptions.

Highly misleading. When it was actually wet Hamilton was a second a lap faster than anyone and dominating the race. Both he and Max went too early on the tyres and both spun off. Max just happened to have gone off where he could recover.
F1 is often random, and people lose out through no fault of their own as we saw with Bottas last weekend. Could just have easily happened to Lewis.

[sennamaster]

No, Bottas was quicker.

 

Apparently Bottas cut Stowe into pit,  it was apparent on the driver tracker

[Atreiu]

Let's not for get Alonso in Azerbaijan 2018

True.

[gowebber]

This is quite misleading. You conveniently omit the fact that Hamilton was stuck behind Rosberg for the first 15 laps of the race. Once Rosberg let Hamilton through his pace increased by 2 seconds per lap and Hamilton began catching Ricciardo. 

 

Not really. Lewis cleared Rosberg on lap 16. The gap to Ricciardo was 13.4 secs,. In the next four laps the most he took out of Ricciardo's lead on one lap was half a second which was barely a tenth after the fourth lap. 2 secs per lap?? Nice try and you are calling me out for being misleading.

 

Look on lap 21 Ricciardo is still 12.4 ahead

 

 

On lap 22 Ricciardo was still 11.2 secs ahead before he pitted. Thats 6 laps since Lewis cleared Rosberg and nowhere near equals 2 secs a lap.Looks more like he was managing the gap to Lewis. Its clear here

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...=Lewis Hamilton

 

We all know what happened to Ricciardo after that with RBR stuffing his pitstop. He was all over the back of Hamilton for the rest of that race and close to making a repass on him in the wet/mixed conditions. In those conditions at the most difficult track there is he was great pretty much maintaining that big gap to Lewis (before the pitstops) and also while others like Max and Kimi binned it.

 

That whole post is misleading.

 

Hungary 2016 Ricciardo and Max qualifed 11th and 12th in the wet (Q1). Session was red flagged for a long time and Q3 was practically dry.

USA 2015 in the wet Ricciardo was trailing Kvyat in 4th, but he came alive when a dry line came up (Kvyat was then also quicker than the Mercs, who were eating Inters). Later that race RIC was also overtaken by Verstappen (in a Toro Rosso).

Hungary 2014 Ricciardo fell back from P2 to P6 in the wet. When it got dryer he went on to win the race.

Monaco 2016 Verstappen ruined his weekend a day earlier. In the race he was lappen a lot quicker than Ricciardo when in free air.

 

Hows it it misleading? I was stating that Ricciardo has driven well before in wet/mixed conditions. Hungary was super wet in Q1 and still very wet in places in Q2 and Q3. Others like Alonso binned it there and he still beat Max.

 

USA 2015 he still passed Lewis in damp conditions on lap 15. Dan got boxed in behind the squabbling Mercs into T1 which is why Kvyat got a run on him and was able to pass. Whos not to say better tyre management helped Ricciardo pass Lewis. Your downplaying. Verstappen is irrelevant here, we are discussing Ricciardos wet weather driving.

 

Nice downplay of his 2014 win too. It was still wet at the start and damp near the end yet he still made some very good passes and went on to win.

 

Verstappen binned it at Monaco 2016 and not for the first time either. You are trying to call me out when your stating stuff like that??

Edited by gowebber, 05 August 2020 - 02:05.

[noikeee]

I'm a bit confused by any discussion about wet weather driving that tries to prove Max is great and Lewis is rubbish or viceversa. They've both had unreal wet drives that nobody in this field has matched.

I do agree that wet weather driving is slightly overrated as a skill though. It's a great equaliser of cars therefore driver talent shows more, yes, but there's average drivers that do better in the wet, and there's great drivers that do worse in the wet. And sometimes you get random results, all it takes is being on the wrong or right tyres at the wrong/right time, or being the only one in the field that gambled on a wet setup etc. Oh and it's a skill that you only really need once or twice per season...

[SilverArrow31]

Me thinks this thread has run its course, where is the 70A build up?

[gowebber]

I'm a bit confused by any discussion about wet weather driving that tries to prove Max is great and Lewis is rubbish or viceversa. They've both had unreal wet drives that nobody in this field has matched.

I do agree that wet weather driving is slightly overrated as a skill though. It's a great equaliser of cars therefore driver talent shows more, yes, but there's average drivers that do better in the wet, and there's great drivers that do worse in the wet. And sometimes you get random results, all it takes is being on the wrong or right tyres at the wrong/right time, or being the only one in the field that gambled on a wet setup etc. Oh and it's a skill that you only really need once or twice per season...

 

Probably best to move on but I'd argue Monaco in the wet is the ultimate test, there is no room for error there and Ricciardo was flying in 2016 in those conditions before he got shafted in that last pitstop. That was a great wet weather drive. But yeah its not needed that often and possibly slighty overrated as you say in the grand scheme of being an F1 driver.

Edited by gowebber, 05 August 2020 - 00:18.

[w1Y]

Does anyone have a link to both lewis and maxs radios over that last lap?

[kernel]

I'm a bit confused by any discussion about wet weather driving that tries to prove Max is great and Lewis is rubbish or viceversa. They've both had unreal wet drives that nobody in this field has matched.

Big difference in magnitude there. Max’s only had like 2 brilliant wet drives (whether race or qualifying). You’d need 2 hands or 3 to count Hamilton’s.

[PayasYouRace]

Comparing Hamilton and Verstappen in the wet has nothing to do with the 2020 British Grand Prix.