68 replies to this topic

[absinthedude]

Nobody knew how much McLaren would steamroller the entire field in 1988. While it was clear that Senna was the centre of attention at Lotus, it wasn't clear how far behind they were. Senna had finished a good 3rd in the tables in 87 and was never far off the pace in 86 or 87. With Williams relegated to the Judd V8 they were destined to be noncompetitive in 1988. McLaren had been using the TAG engine for some years and nobody could have known that switching to Honda would work so well in their first year together. They had also gone off the boil in 1987. So it was logical for Piquet to assume that Lotus Honda would give him a good chance. He'd have the undisputed best engine, a clear #2 as a team mate, in a team which had experience with Honda and perhaps some favours for running a Japanese driver.

 

As it turned out, Senna had been flattering poor Lotus cars, and the team was in terminal decline. But at the time that was far from clear. The 1988 car had many problems, which Piquet and Nakajima kept telling the team about but they were unable to solve them. IIRC Jackie Stewart tested it after the season ended and agreed with Messrs Piquet and Nakajima. 

Edited by absinthedude, 06 August 2020 - 15:36.

[garoidb]

Nobody knew how much McLaren would steamroller the entire field in 1988. While it was clear that Senna was the centre of attention at Lotus, it wasn't clear how far behind they were. Senna had finished a good 3rd in the tables in 87 and was never far off the pace in 86 or 87. With Williams relegated to the Judd V8 they were destined to be noncompetitive in 1988. McLaren had been using the TAG engine for some years and nobody could have known that switching to Honda would work so well in their first year together. They had also gone off the boil in 1987. So it was logical for Piquet to assume that Lotus Honda would give him a good chance. He'd have the undisputed best engine, a clear #2 as a team mate, in a team which had experience with Honda and perhaps some favours for running a Japanese driver.

 

As it turned out, Senna had been flattering poor Lotus cars, and the team was in terminal decline. But at the time that was far from clear. The 1988 car had many problems, which Piquet and Nakajima kept telling the team about but they were unable to solve them. IIRC Jackie Stewart tested it after the season ended and agreed with Messrs Piquet and Nakajima. 

 

They discontinued active suspension too, so the 1988 car was not really the natural successor to the 1987 one. 

[airbox]

Most of the motivation Nelson had for developing an uncompetitive car into a winner and to push his comfort zone left at the same time he departed Brabham. 

 

Contrast his pretty spirited drives against the odds in a Pirelli-shod BT54 through the 1985 season against Monaco 1986 where he qualified what was probably the fastest car on the grid in 11th and pretty much toured around to finish 7th and a lap down.

 

After his Imola accident this became even more pronounced. From then on you got the impression he was happy to stick to his own pace and take what came his way. Unfortunately this tends to be what he is remembered for today which overlooks how good he was in the early to mid 1980's.

 

Not sure he could have done much with the 100T which was a fundamentally flawed car, but don't think he had the desire to try too much either. 

[George Costanza]

What made Nelson go to Lotus in '88? Surely McLaren wasn't an option or was it? and Williams were clearly better than Lotus. I have to imagine if Nelson in those super quick Williams of 91 or 92 would have won a title.
I guess money was his only motivation after 1988...

Edited by George Costanza, 06 August 2020 - 19:45.

[F1matt]

The 100T was just an updated 99T without the active suspension, It would be interesting to know if the handling issues of the 100T were also in the 99T and were masked by the active suspension and Senna overcoming the issue. 

[airbox]

What made Nelson go to Lotus in '88? Surely McLaren wasn't an option or was it? and Williams were clearly better than Lotus. I have to imagine if Nelson in those super quick Williams of 91 or 92 would have won a title.
I guess money was his only motivation after 1988...

 

Piquet was highly regarded by Honda, and both parties were upset at Williams not enforcing his No 1 status during his time with the team, the deal was announced fairly early on in the 87 season before the Italian Grand Prix, Senna had apparently already activated a break clause in his Lotus contract. 

 

I imagine Piquet felt going back to having a clear No 2 team mate would help him as it had at Brabham (Patrese excepted) and that they could resolve the issues with the 99T with its evolution into the 100T. 

[absinthedude]

Additionally it was known that Williams would lose the Honda engines for 1988 and be using the Judd V8 normally aspirated motor. Williams tried to spin this as getting ahead of the game with regard to the new rules in 1989, but in reality it was taking a mid grid customer engine in place of the best turbo in the field. It was known they'd be uncompetitive in 1988. Nelson didn't want to stick around due to this and the reasons stated above, plus it was entirely logical to want to drive a Honda-engined car with a strict #1 status. 

 

From what I remember, Piquet and Nakajima both complained throughout the season that the car's floor flexed. It wasn't rigid enough. Peter Warr didn't listen and no work was done towards solving the problem. After the season ended Jackie Stewart was invited to test the car for publicity reasons and said exactly the same. He also found the cockpit very unergonomic. 

[George Costanza]

Did McLaren ever consider Nelson for 1988?

[airbox]

According to Jo Ramirez Prost was pushing for Senna to join, but McLaren went as far as showing Nelson around their new factory on Albert Drive to demonstrate their facilities and to outline their plans. Piquet was apparently more interested in how much he would be paid which didn't impress Ron Dennis. After that Senna became the target for 1988. 

[garoidb]

According to Jo Ramirez Prost was pushing for Senna to join, but McLaren went as far as showing Nelson around their new factory on Albert Drive to demonstrate their facilities and to outline their plans. Piquet was apparently more interested in how much he would be paid which didn't impress Ron Dennis. After that Senna became the target for 1988. 

 

I think Ayrton took Ron to the cleaners too (but maybe not for the first contract)   . 

 

It would be interesting to know the relative levels of sponsorship from Marlboro and Camel in 1987 and 1988. Camel were making a big splash in motorsports sponsorship around that time, often sponsoring the sons or brothers of famous drivers in junior categories (e.g. Jacques Villeneuve in Italian F3, Paul Stewart in British F3 etc). Did they come to the table with comparable funding to what Marlboro were giving McLaren?

[Updraught]

I believe Piquet was the highest paid F1 driver in 1988 @ $5M+

 

Below is a link to a copy of his 88-89 Lotus/RJR contract :

 

https://www.industry...cs/#id=zlpg0065

 

(this info came from another TNF thread)

[garoidb]

I believe Piquet was the highest paid F1 driver in 1988 @ $5M+

 

Below is a link to a copy of his 88-89 Lotus/RJR contract :

 

https://www.industry...cs/#id=zlpg0065

 

(this info came from another TNF thread)

 

That is really interesting, thanks. I believe this was Nelson's first time to drive a car with tobacco sponsorship since 1978. It is interesting that there is a statement that he will not be personally required to endorse tobacco products. I wonder if all drivers had that?

[Rediscoveryx]

Did McLaren ever consider Nelson for 1988?

Well, Prost has at least mentioned that Ron Dennis was interested in hiring Piquet but that Prost had recommended he'd go for Senna instead.

This was the first source I found:

https://historseye.w...laren-1988/amp/

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 11 August 2020 - 11:28.

[blackmme]

That is really interesting, thanks. I believe this was Nelson's first time to drive a car with tobacco sponsorship since 1978. It is interesting that there is a statement that he will not be personally required to endorse tobacco products. I wonder if all drivers had that?

 

Williams had RJ Reynolds brand Barclay as a sponsor in 1987.

 

Regards Mike

[garoidb]

Williams had RJ Reynolds brand Barclay as a sponsor in 1987.

 

Regards Mike

 

Thanks. Yes, that is right of course. It was really Brabham who eschewed tobacco sponsorship, whether deliberately or not I don't know. Nelson was also reunited with Camel in his last season at Benetton too. 

[ensign14]

I believe Piquet was the highest paid F1 driver in 1988 @ $5M+

 

Below is a link to a copy of his 88-89 Lotus/RJR contract :

 

https://www.industry...cs/#id=zlpg0065

 

(this info came from another TNF thread)

Makes up from being underpaid at Brabham.  Wasn't he on a comparatively low wage (especially for a world champ) and Lauda basically smartened him up?

[Michael Ferner]

I believe Piquet was the highest paid F1 driver in 1988 @ $5M+
 
Below is a link to a copy of his 88-89 Lotus/RJR contract :
 
https://www.industry...cs/#id=zlpg0065
 
(this info came from another TNF thread)

Yes, very interesting! Also includes a per-point payment, which I thought Benetton always claimed as their own stroke of genius!?!

[F1matt]

Lotus also paid the travel expenses which I don’t think happens in modern F1. 

[garoidb]

Yes, very interesting! Also includes a per-point payment, which I thought Benetton always claimed as their own stroke of genius!?!

 

The fee appears to have been split (at least initially) into $1.5 million for driving the car and $3.5 million for "the right to exploit the name, fame and image, personal endorsement and personal services of Nelson Piquet ...". The $1.5 million was further broken down into €900,000 as a racing driver, €200,000 for testing cars and €400,000 for the right to exploit name fame etc for promotional purposes. The points bonus was small compared to this ($4,000 per point), and would have given him €88,000.

 

He was also due a bonus of €500,000 if he won the 1987 WDC, which he had just gained the lead in by 4 points from Senna at the time of signing so not a foregone conclusion, but only €250,000 if he won the 1988 WDC (and the same for 1989).

 

What strikes me is that Honda don't seem to have been paying any of this (at least not directly) and that he was not recruited specifically because he had won the 1987 WDC (or had a large lead in it). He didn't. Lotus and Honda could easily have still hoped to win with Senna (or Mansell). Honda were very unlikely to lose it by this stage (although 1986 might have still haunted them   ).

Edited by garoidb, 11 August 2020 - 20:26.