1589 replies to this topic

[sennamaster]

Marko’s team won the race. If Merc were so quick, why was Bottas constantly going backwards on the first lap?

 

Maybe the same reason Albon and Kyvatt have also been going backwards compared to their team mates 

[Kao18]

Yeah, although I'm not sure if Mugello is a good track to judge it either xD

Based on Monza little has changed, except that overtaking might be harder for everyone, but many of us predicted that.

Open questions are who will be hit hardest reliability-wise. And who gained race pace. The former is always only judgeable over a longer period. It seems that Mercedes are the winner of the latter, but we probably need Max in clean air to judge that.

I think the latter is not clear at all either. Not sure how you conc!ude Mercedes are the winners? Very premature imo.

Compared to the rest of the field Williams certain!y doesnt seem to have gained performance, RP"s gains compared to the competition were also questionable and for the main team we have Bottas who was nowhere and called the engine mode 'a joke' and Lewis who didnt really show anything we havent seen before from him pacewise.

Everything is very much in the open still and you could definitely make a case for Toto's boasting pre TD not exactly materializing yet.

Yes RB had their own issues but lets not forget a Honda did win the race.

Edited by Kao18, 07 September 2020 - 08:10.

[Jordan44]

Marko’s team won the race. If Merc were so quick, why was Bottas constantly going backwards on the first lap?

Come on, you've watched F1 long enough to answer this question yourself.

[Ali623]

I guess non Mercedes PU teams could be satisfied with the result of party mode ban. Mercedes weren't able to complete their overtakes like before and more often than not they needed the whole long straight to complete an overtake while before the party mode ban, Mercedes were able to easily overtake other cars even in short straights. The way I saw it, Mercedes and Racing point were wounded at the Italian GP.

 

Hamilton was able to make overtakes with ease seemingly, no?

[dissident]

Lewis was going about 2sec faster after the red flag, trying to catchup with the pack

 

*1.3 on his best lap in clean air vs Gasly

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...r2=Pierre Gasly

[Goron3]

Hamilton was able to make overtakes with ease seemingly, no?

He was able to overtake the significantly slower cars like the Williams, yes. Tbh I doubt he would have been able to do much against a Mclaren, for example.

[Marklar]

I think the latter is not clear at all either. Not sure how you conc!ude Mercedes are the winners? Very premature imo.

Where did I say that it was "clear"? I said it seems and that its still too early to say because the best benchmark, the leading Red Bull, was stuck in traffic.

It's true that on peak performance Hamilton didnt show anything new. But he was able to do it consistently, which they didnt do before, all while maintaining their quali advantage.

As said the questionmark is reliability. It's certainly stressing the engine more. We will probably be only able to tell at the end of this engines lifecycle who managed it better. But even then I assume that by fine-tuning it next season everyone will be fine by then.

Btw a Honda powered car didnt won because they were quick but because of strategy luck and because overtaking was difficult. You are not doing yourself a favor by ignoring context.

He was able to overtake the significantly slower cars like the Williams, yes. Tbh I doubt he would have been able to do much against a Mclaren, for example.

Renault and Alpha Tauri who were both quick on the straights too.

Edited by Marklar, 07 September 2020 - 08:15.

[kernel]

*1.3 on his best lap in clean air vs Gasly

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...r2=Pierre Gasly

 

But then he pulled another 1:22s late in the race and low 1:23s, while GAS was firmly in the mid-high 1:24 and then dipped in the 1:25. Tyre delta was increasing as the race went on.

[SenorSjon]

Looks like the TD was a pretty bad idea. Both Hamilton and Bottas have noticed how much harder it is to overtake even clearly slower cars on track without the benefit of more flexible engine modes. 

 

So F1 just moved towards less overtaking on track.

 

It is called racecraft. Bottas is a Saturday man.

 

But then he pulled another 1:22s late in the race and low 1:23s, while GAS was firmly in the mid-high 1:24 and then dipped in the 1:25. Tyre delta was increasing as the race went on.

 

You act suprised that Mercedes is the fastest car?

[statman]

It is called racecraft. Bottas is a Saturday man.

 

 

You act suprised that Mercedes is the fastest car?

 

We finally have confirmation that the Merc is a faster car than the AlphaTauri!! 

 

 

[Rinehart]

Marko’s team won the race. If Merc were so quick, why was Bottas constantly going backwards on the first lap?

 

Because Mercedes were expecting to run at the front they ran more downforce than everyone else. That gave a much faster lap time and better tyre life (so a much faster total stint time) but it compromised straight line speed. Elementary stuff.

[Ali623]

He was able to overtake the significantly slower cars like the Williams, yes. Tbh I doubt he would have been able to do much against a Mclaren, for example.

 

Also overtook a RP, AT and Renault which were all similarly paced to the McLarens. I have no doubt if Hamilton was behind Norris, he would have got the job done without much trouble, definitely wouldn't have been stuck behind for most of the race anyway. 

Edited by Ali623, 07 September 2020 - 11:01.

[Marklar]

departing from the childish bickering I just watched out of curiosity Hamilton's final laps and noticed that he did change his engine mode after passing Ocon (to Strat 5)

I guess they remapped the engine modes in a way that it's only changing the parameters that arent regulated, so they are probably still able to manage the engine to some extent.

[Augurk]

departing from the childish bickering I just watched out of curiosity Hamilton's final laps and noticed that he did change his engine mode after passing Ocon (to Strat 5)

I guess they remapped the engine modes in a way that it's only changing the parameters that arent regulated, so they are probably still able to manage the engine to some extent.

I did notice a few more mode changes happening, which I thought was odd. But surely they must operate within the still allowed parameters. Possibly only changes to the interaction of the ICE with the energy system. 

 

So I guess the jury's still out on the effects of this TD. Obviously it didn't stop Merc from running away with it in quali (if it had an effect on the gap who knows after 1 race), but it did stop at least one of their drivers from easily moving forward when stuck in the midfield. 

We'll have to see a couple of more races to see how this really plays out.

[nookie]

Watching dominant cars do DRS drivebys on midfield teams was never exciting.

neither was watching trulli-trains.

[nookie]

He was able to overtake the significantly slower cars like the Williams, yes. Tbh I doubt he would have been able to do much against a Mclaren, for example.

neither sergio nor alex sit in 'significantly' slower cars, in fact, they top the best of the rest together with mclaren. and daniil was a sitting duck to lewis, you know, the car that won the race - ahead of that mclaren you mentioned couldn't be passed..

Edited by nookie, 07 September 2020 - 13:24.

[Timstr11]

departing from the childish bickering I just watched out of curiosity Hamilton's final laps and noticed that he did change his engine mode after passing Ocon (to Strat 5)

I guess they remapped the engine modes in a way that it's only changing the parameters that arent regulated, so they are probably still able to manage the engine to some extent.

 

They're still allowed to maximize battery charge to prepare for an overtaking event.

Edited by Timstr11, 07 September 2020 - 13:31.

[Quickshifter]

I am happy with this directive. Sick and tired of those ''recovery'' drives where drivers could just  breeze past by turning up the engine. The top team drivers have had it a bit too easy. Now they would be wary of dropping into the midfield.  Let them also earn their bread. If they qualify poorly they would be made to work hard to get through the field and that is a good thing. We always heard as to how driver XYZ would be in top 6 from the back of the grid in no time, those days are over. It is nice to see the top drivers actually having to earn their overtake.

 

This is a learning process for every manufacturer. Overtaking difficulty at a particular track will be taken in to consideration henceforth imho  for deciding the ICE mode. Drivers will be asked to do lift n coast or short shift to save the engine when the manufacturer chooses an aggressive ICE mode for the qualifying and race.

Edited by Quickshifter, 07 September 2020 - 17:58.

[OO7]

I do wonder about what the F.I.A found difficult to monitor.  The ERS side remains relatively free, but the ICE is now quite restricted.  So does the difficulty stem from the ICE or the complex interaction between the ICE and the ERS.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I do wonder about what the F.I.A found difficult to monitor. The ERS side remains relatively free, but the ICE is now quite restricted. So does the difficulty stem from the ICE or the complex interaction between the ICE and the ERS.

My guess would be the interaction between the MGU-H, ES and the MGU-K...

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Well, some of us acknowledged that as well but some still don't.

"Wolff says lack of engine modes hindered Monza fightback"

https://www.motorspo...htback/4870757/

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Well, some of us acknowledged that as well but some still don't.

"Wolff says lack of engine modes hindered Monza fightback"

https://www.motorspo...htback/4870757/

Only because they probably turned it down as wasn’t expecting a penalty...

[Mrlarsen]

So what have we learned about the Party mode ban?

Mercedes strength seems to be almost the same at least in the races and still ahead in Qualifying. 

But RB seems to be strugling, first they where no where in Monza Qaulifying and Max has now had 2 DNFs directly after the Party Mode ban, coincidence? i dont think so

Im betting they are trying to push the engine way to much during the races.

Edited by Mrlarsen, 13 September 2020 - 16:06.

[FrontWing]

Tumbleweed

[shure]

I like the ban.  I think it has closed things down a bit and has made some drivers - *cough* Bottas *cough* - work harder for their results.  Max was the closest he's been in qualifying for a while.  I think expecting there to be a major upset in the pecking order is a bit unrealistic, but at least now we get a little less of the sense of the car doing everything for them.  

[Requiem84]

What I appreciate about the ban on PU modes is that Mercedes doesn't suddenly make a 0.5 jump in Q3. 

 

It always was unclear to me whether it was just 'Strat 2' or an amazing lap of Bottas/Hamilton. It feels more like a fight mano-a-mano now. And RB definitely did close up in Mugello. It feels like there is less emphasis on the outright PU performance and more on the driver performance.

 

Which is a good thing in general for F1. 

[Marklar]

yeah, you can judge driver performance of the top teams much better now, since you have 4-5 representative laps instead of 2.

Edited by Marklar, 14 September 2020 - 09:24.

[Requiem84]

Exactly. 

 

Q2 = Q3. 

 

Both Mercedes guys did make a small jump in Q3. Why couldn't RB / the other teams? 

 

Does Mercedes run Q2 with a less aggressive ERS setting, or with more fuel in the tank? I thought it was interesting to see that difference. 

[DeKnyff]

Exactly. 

 

Q2 = Q3. 

 

Both Mercedes guys did make a small jump in Q3. Why couldn't RB / the other teams? 

 

Does Mercedes run Q2 with a less aggressive ERS setting, or with more fuel in the tank? I thought it was interesting to see that difference. 

I'm not sure that Mercedes drivers and team go all out in Q2.

[MinardiCrashDummy]

Probably not pushing as much as you have to start on those tires

[MikeTekRacing]

Exactly. 

 

Q2 = Q3. 

 

Both Mercedes guys did make a small jump in Q3. Why couldn't RB / the other teams? 

 

Does Mercedes run Q2 with a less aggressive ERS setting, or with more fuel in the tank? I thought it was interesting to see that difference. 

 

they still need the q2 tyres in the first stint....maybe they take a bit of care?

[shure]

So we've had a few races now and I think it's fair to say the ban on special modes has hurt Merc a bit.  In the past a 10s penalty would have been an irritation but today Lewis couldn't regain the lost time to Max.  A little more level than pre-ban

[Huffer]

So we've had a few races now and I think it's fair to say the ban on special modes has hurt Merc a bit.  In the past a 10s penalty would have been an irritation but today Lewis couldn't regain the lost time to Max.  A little more level than pre-ban

 

10 seconds + traffic on hard tires that needed to last 10 laps longer than the other front runners. Tires played a larger role here. 

[Timstr11]

So we've had a few races now and I think it's fair to say the ban on special modes has hurt Merc a bit.  In the past a 10s penalty would have been an irritation but today Lewis couldn't regain the lost time to Max.  A little more level than pre-ban

 

Lewis was looking after his tyres. An attack on Max would have taken a lot out of his very old tyres.

 

You need to look at the gap Bottas was pulling to Verstappen.

That's where you can see that the mode ban has not changed anything in the pecking order. I'd say Mercedes has even gained a bit of race pace relative to Redbull.

Edited by Timstr11, 27 September 2020 - 13:17.

[smitten]

So we've had a few races now and I think it's fair to say the ban on special modes has hurt Merc a bit.  In the past a 10s penalty would have been an irritation but today Lewis couldn't regain the lost time to Max.  A little more level than pre-ban

 

I would say I find it hard to attribute any perceptible difference to the ban.

[shure]

I still think "in the olden days" Lewis would have just whacked up the mode and closed up pretty quickly.  Not convinced that the Merc gap has increased

[ARTGP]

I still think "in the olden days" Lewis would have just whacked up the mode and closed up pretty quickly.  Not convinced that the Merc gap has increased

 

 

He pitted too early. I really think it's as simple as that.

Edited by ARTGP, 28 September 2020 - 01:23.

[shure]

Lewis was looking after his tyres. An attack on Max would have taken a lot out of his very old tyres.

 

You need to look at the gap Bottas was pulling to Verstappen.

That's where you can see that the mode ban has not changed anything in the pecking order. I'd say Mercedes has even gained a bit of race pace relative to Redbull.

I agree the overall pecking order hasn't changed (nor was I expecting it to, tbh), but feel that before the ban Mercedes would have still had a second place finish at least

[shure]

He pitted too early. I really think it's as simple as that.

yes, because he couldn't engage higher modes to build up a sufficient gap to comfortably clear all the traffic.

[f1paul]

The engine modes haven't been as bas as I first thought to be honest.

 

Racing hasn't been any worse imo which is what I feared.