158 replies to this topic

[Muppetmad]

Sean Gelael suffered a vertebral fracture in yesterday's F2 race, and it is reported that he will be out of racing for at least two weeks. Alex Brundle and others in the paddock report he suffered the injury on a sausage kerb.

 

We have seen some shocking accidents in the past decade because of sausage kerbs: Tereschenko at Spa in 2014; Heidfeld in Beijing in 2014; Peroni at Monza last year; these are just off the top of my head. Peroni had to sit the rest of the year out as a result of his injuries.

 

My questions are simple: why were kerbs which intentionally launch a car into the air introduced in the first place? What possible logic could justify the removal of grass and gravel from circuits on safety grounds, but deem sausage kerbs a suitable and safe solution? And, most pressingly, why have they not yet been removed?

Edited by Muppetmad, 16 August 2020 - 06:14.

[pitlanepalpatine]

At the risk of sounding like Ron Swanson another benefit to sausages.

 

On topic, most fans prefer gravel or grass right up to the point that there's a 10 lap safety car to get the beached whale out of there. Considering I don't think Sean Gelael has the capacity for professional racing and has now hurt himself doing something he's incapable of he's not getting any sympathies from me. This really isn't the hill for a last stand...if you wanted to complain about sausage kerbs you should have done it when Sophia Floersch flew into a trackside building. I'd unfortunately log this under "Some times bad **** happens when you drive motor vehicles at unsafe speeds".

[Muppetmad]

This really isn't the hill for a last stand...if you wanted to complain about sausage kerbs you should have done it when Sophia Floersch flew into a trackside building.

I did. Sadly, I think we have to have this conversation every time something like this happens, or else we become desensitised to it and assume that the sausage kerbs are a necessary feature rather than a conscious policy choice on the part of the FIA.

Edited by Muppetmad, 16 August 2020 - 06:50.

[Kalmake]

Grass and gravel doesn't deter cutting in slow corner apexes.

[Lights]

Why sausage kerbs? Because the FIA is run by a bunch of idiots that apply knee-jerk modifications to everything.

 

They ruined the circuits to an extent where we not only have to deal with track limit madness on a weekly basis, but drivers still get injured through their 'solutions'.

[jee]

Grass and gravel doesn't deter cutting in slow corner apexes.

Tyre stacks do

[Kalmake]

Tyre stacks do

But they are not safer.

[Lights]

Grass and gravel doesn't deter cutting in slow corner apexes.

 

What a silly thing to say. Of course they do.

 

T12 Hungary

 

T15 Melbourne

 

 

In fact, look at an onboard from Melbourne. It's full of slow corners with grass. And where does Hamilton cut slow corner apexes? Nowhere.

[PayasYouRace]

Is there a place to see what happened to Sean? I'd like to see the context before making a judgement on all sausage kerbs.

 

However, they do seem to go against the reasoning for removing the high kerbs that circuits used to have which caused crashes like Barrichello's at Imola because they were effectively launch ramps for out of control cars.

[milestone 11]

At the risk of sounding like Ron Swanson another benefit to sausages.
 
On topic, most fans prefer gravel or grass right up to the point that there's a 10 lap safety car to get the beached whale out of there. Considering I don't think Sean Gelael has the capacity for professional racing and has now hurt himself doing something he's incapable of he's not getting any sympathies from me. This really isn't the hill for a last stand...if you wanted to complain about sausage kerbs you should have done it when Sophia Floersch flew into a trackside building. I'd unfortunately log this under "Some times bad **** happens when you drive motor vehicles at unsafe speeds".

Sophia Floersch at Macau and Alex Peroni at Monza could so very easily ended in fatalities. These bloody things still remain. They're lethal for bikes too. Get rid of them ASAP.

[Stephane]

THey use Sausage kerb because it is removable easily for the moto races.

[Kalmake]

What a silly thing to say. Of course they do.

 

T12 Hungary

 

 

T15 Melbourne

 

 

 

In fact, look at an onboard from Melbourne. It's full of slow corners with grass. And where does Hamilton cut slow corner apexes? Nowhere.

Sure. I was thinking slower sharp turns like two of the videos in OP. It would be faster to just run inside wheels over grass/gravel on those than go around.

[jee]

But they are not safer.

It should be hell lot safer to be stopped by a tyre stack than being launched into the air by a sausage curb

[PayasYouRace]

It should be hell lot safer to be stopped by a tyre stack than being launched into the air by a sausage curb

We learned in 1996 that tyre stacks are useless. They don’t stop cars, but they do break wings and suspension with the slightest touch and if you do hit them hard then you have tyres flying around.

[ExFlagMan]

It should be hell lot safer to be stopped by a tyre stack than being launched into the air by a sausage curb

 

In both cases it would be a lot safer to just drive on the black bit, unless of course some twonk punts the tyre stack onto the black bit.

[Lights]

Sure. I was thinking slower sharp turns like two of the videos in OP. It would be faster to just run inside wheels over grass/gravel on those than go around.

 

Yeah ok, I gave my two examples because they're similar to T13 in Spain where Gelael seems to have gotten injured.

 

The problem is that they started putting these wide dark green surfaces behind the kerbs. That meant drivers could easily run over them without losing much grip or getting their tires dirty. Then as a response to that cutting that they put a sausage kerb in between.

 

But there was nothing wrong with the grass to begin with. The only reasoning against grass I've ever heard if that it's hard to maintain. Well **** that, that shouldn't be a reason at this level of motorsport. Make it happen. Driver's vertebra's will be thankfull.

[pitlanepalpatine]

I did. Sadly, I think we have to have this conversation every time something like this happens, or else we become desensitised to it and assume that the sausage kerbs are a necessary feature rather than a conscious policy choice on the part of the FIA.

 

Apologies, I let my deep seated dislike of Sean Gelael cloud my judgement. 

[Ijsman]

The detection technology in asphalt is there, the FIA should start using that instead of the “ramp” kerbs.

[jee]

We learned in 1996 that tyre stacks are useless. They don’t stop cars, but they do break wings and suspension with the slightest touch and if you do hit them hard then you have tyres flying around.

 

 

In both cases it would be a lot safer to just drive on the black bit, unless of course some twonk punts the tyre stack onto the black bit.

 

I am sure if they want to they can fix the tyre stack to the track just as the sausage curbs so they do not move and some broken carbon is not a safety issue.

[PayasYouRace]

I am sure if they want to they can fix the tyre stack to the track just as the sausage curbs so they do not move and some broken carbon is not a safety issue.

Sust how solid do you expect a stack of tyres to be if fixed to the track? The whole point of something like that is to absorb some energy when hit. If not we’d go back to lamp posts and trees on the sides of the track.

 

Broken carbon has a habit of puncturing tyres, and is enough of a safety issue to require a safety car to clean it up.

[Kalmake]

Yeah ok, I gave my two examples because they're similar to T13 in Spain where Gelael seems to have gotten injured.

 

The problem is that they started putting these wide dark green surfaces behind the kerbs. That meant drivers could easily run over them without losing much grip or getting their tires dirty. Then as a response to that cutting that they put a sausage kerb in between.

 

But there was nothing wrong with the grass to begin with. The only reasoning against grass I've ever heard if that it's hard to maintain. Well **** that, that shouldn't be a reason at this level of motorsport. Make it happen. Driver's vertebra's will be thankfull.

I'd put the blame on FIM again.

[ExFlagMan]

Yeah ok, I gave my two examples because they're similar to T13 in Spain where Gelael seems to have gotten injured.

 

The problem is that they started putting these wide dark green surfaces behind the kerbs. That meant drivers could easily run over them without losing much grip or getting their tires dirty. Then as a response to that cutting that they put a sausage kerb in between.

 

But there was nothing wrong with the grass to begin with. The only reasoning against grass I've ever heard if that it's hard to maintain. Well **** that, that shouldn't be a reason at this level of motorsport. Make it happen. Driver's vertebra's will be thankfull.

 

 

Imagine that yellow kerb being replaced by grass - how long do you think the grass would last - doesn.t take long for a Weaver's Trench to develop and the red/white kerb then becomes something akin to the yellow kerb.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 16 August 2020 - 08:39.

[Widefoot2]

The detection technology in asphalt is there, the FIA should start using that instead of the “ramp” kerbs.

Yes, at the delineation between track/curb and "off track" use buried sensors that record who went off and add a five-second penalty to their time during pitting, or end of race if needed.  Perhaps have one or two mulligans, but no more. Won't take long for drivers to stay on the black bits...

 

I do agree that curbs that present a launch risk aren't the right solution.

[ArchieTech]

Imagine that yellow kerb being replaced by grass - how long do you think the grass would last - doesn.t take long for a Weaver's Trench to develop and the red/white kerb then becomes something akin to the yellow kerb.

I wonder if the grass immediately behind a kerb could be reinforced with that plastic lattice stuff that is sometimes seen around tracks. It might help keep the structural integrity of the vegetation behind the kerb and reduce the chance of a trench forming, whilst still offering some deterrent in terms of grip loss.

[ExFlagMan]

Those 'Grasscrete' style blocks have been tried at tracks for years, with varied levels of success.

 

I don't think they are designed to take heavy use, the grass soon dries out and gets pulled out by hot sticky tyres, leaving the concrete 'waffle' which then tends to get broken - I have seen big chunks of concrete thrown up from them.

 

Even the plastic ones have problems - I recall the maintenance guys at Oulton Park saying they are a pain to maintain, as it takes weeks for the grass to regrow and it is difficult to replace a broken block as they are designed to lock together.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 16 August 2020 - 09:19.

[milestone 11]

THey use Sausage kerb because it is removable easily for the moto races.

Not always, though I 100% agree that they should.

[Clatter]

Yeah ok, I gave my two examples because they're similar to T13 in Spain where Gelael seems to have gotten injured.

 

The problem is that they started putting these wide dark green surfaces behind the kerbs. That meant drivers could easily run over them without losing much grip or getting their tires dirty. Then as a response to that cutting that they put a sausage kerb in between.

 

But there was nothing wrong with the grass to begin with. The only reasoning against grass I've ever heard if that it's hard to maintain. Well **** that, that shouldn't be a reason at this level of motorsport. Make it happen. Driver's vertebra's will be thankfull.

 

It's a problem, and cost, for the circuits to have to maintain. F1 is not the only event they host, and they don't want to have to cancel other events because repairs are necessary.

[OvDrone]

'These cars are basically upside down airplanes.'

 

'Quick, make a ramp for them on the outside of the corners.'

[absinthedude]

Sausage kerbs on the outside of corners....I think we do now have sufficient evidence that they're more of a problem than drivers going outside the track limits. The tyre stacks present their own problems, not least before the halo there was the risk of tyres hitting drivers on the head. Plus they took a heck of a long time to clear up after being hit, and then rebuilt. 

 

There's no easy answer, but the sausage kerbs in certain positions are definitely a problem.

 

I bear Mr. Geleal no ill-will despite believing he's out of his depth in F2. I hope he recovers and am sad he was injured.

[Risil]

'These cars are basically upside down airplanes.'

 

'Quick, make a ramp for them on the outside of the corners.'

If they're upside down aeroplanes surely a ramp would push them further into the ground.

[Lights]

It's a problem, and cost, for the circuits to have to maintain. F1 is not the only event they host, and they don't want to have to cancel other events because repairs are necessary.

 

So instead we get damaged cars and injured drivers. More costs, just not for the circuit I suppose. But ti's not an ideal solution.

 

Plus as I wrote earlier, other tracks are able to do this, so why not Barcelona.

[ExFlagMan]

The answer is just to do what they have at the MSVR circuits in the UK - put sensors just behind the kerbs linked to video cameras at the places that track limits get abused and apply penalties.

 

It appears to work at club/national level - the drivers soon learn what the limits are and tend to modify their behaviour.

 

As an example, just watched the F3 races from the Oulton Park season opener.

 

I noticed that they had replaced the grasscrete areas on the outside of Deer Leap and Cascades with a wide strip of concrete behind the kerbing, I assume with sensors as the drivers were not using the new concrete, even though these two areas have probably been the most abused sections of the circuit for years.

 

Four F3 races over the weekend and I cannot recall anyone straying onto the new concrete.

 

I guess the real test will be next weekend when the BTCC 'rock apes' visit the venue!

 

As for the costs to the circuits - in the present zero/reduced spectator income circumstances, many circuits are having to rely on mid-week testing/track days for most of their income - and hence any days lost to circuit repairs is a double hit.

[ANF]

If they're upside down aeroplanes surely a ramp would push them further into the ground.

Only an upside down ramp would do that.

[ExFlagMan]

So instead we get damaged cars and injured drivers. More costs, just not for the circuit I suppose. But ti's not an ideal solution.

 

Plus as I wrote earlier, other tracks are able to do this, so why not Barcelona.

 

The drivers have a choice.

[Risil]

Only an upside down ramp would do that.

Let's sketch some non-Euclidean kerbs on a napkin and send them to the FIA

[ExFlagMan]

Just send them MSVR's address - I am sure Mr Palmer would be willing to supply them with the details of his sensor supplier.

[Risil]

But the issue isn't that the F1 stewards need help deciding whether a driver put the wheels outside the track, it's that they want the latitude to penalize or not penalize depending on what the show demands.

[Gambelli]

They should be investing in finding some sort of surface that is extremely low grip, and use it on the outside of corners, just for the first metre or so bordering the track beyond the ripple strip, something that when the car gets on it its limits traction, then beyond that, depending on track, wall proximity, corner profile etc have grass or tarmac beyond that.

 

Yes, people will argue that drivers could hit the slippery runoff and spin and be collected by other cars, but I'm mostly addressing slow speed corners here, something has to be down to punish going off the track after all, and it does seem that sausage kerbs aren't the answer.

 

This slippery surface could also be used at the apexes too.

[Kalmake]

The answer is just to do what they have at the MSVR circuits in the UK - put sensors just behind the kerbs linked to video cameras at the places that track limits get abused and apply penalties.

 

It appears to work at club/national level - the drivers soon learn what the limits are and tend to modify their behaviour.

 

As an example, just watched the F3 races from the Oulton Park season opener.

 

I noticed that they had replaced the grasscrete areas on the outside of Deer Leap and Cascades with a wide strip of concrete behind the kerbing, I assume with sensors as the drivers were not using the new concrete, even though these two areas have probably been the most abused sections of the circuit for years.

 

Four F3 races over the weekend and I cannot recall anyone straying onto the new concrete.

 

I guess the real test will be next weekend when the BTCC 'rock apes' visit the venue!

 

As for the costs to the circuits - in the present zero/reduced spectator income circumstances, many circuits are having to rely on mid-week testing/track days for most of their income - and hence any days lost to circuit repairs is a double hit.

This Oulton F3 race came up first in search https://www.youtube....h?v=8CMTR32EGSI

 

Concrete gets some love though not as the preferred line.

 

Chicanes have sausage kerbs.

 

Not a FIM track.

[Kalmake]

They should be investing in finding some sort of surface that is extremely low grip, and use it on the outside of corners, just for the first metre or so bordering the track beyond the ripple strip, something that when the car gets on it its limits traction, then beyond that, depending on track, wall proximity, corner profile etc have grass or tarmac beyond that.

 

Yes, people will argue that drivers could hit the slippery runoff and spin and be collected by other cars, but I'm mostly addressing slow speed corners here, something has to be down to punish going off the track after all, and it does seem that sausage kerbs aren't the answer.

 

This slippery surface could also be used at the apexes too.

In the Barcelona chicane for example it would be faster to coast through the low grip stuff than take the corner.

[Spillage]

Gravel traps are the answer to all of these problems - from track limit abuse to forgiving runoffs. We won't see much corner-cutting at Mugello.

[ExFlagMan]

Could see quite a lot of the SC though.

[Kalmake]

Gravel traps are the answer to all of these problems - from track limit abuse to forgiving runoffs. We won't see much corner-cutting at Mugello.

You sure? It's another FIM track. In this F3 race they regularly go outside white lines. Temporary sausage kerbs feature inside some slow corners.

 

https://eu.motorspor...lo-race-2/27972

[ANF]

I there a place to see what happened to Sean? I'd like to see the context before making a judgement on all sausage kerbs.
 
However, they do seem to go against the reasoning for removing the high kerbs that circuits used to have which caused crashes like Barrichello's at Imola because they were effectively launch ramps for out of control cars.

F2/F1/FIA haven't released any footage, but here's how commentator Alex Jacques described it: "On the final lap, Sean went airborne at Turn 13, went over the kerb and the front wheels came down hard."

[SenorSjon]

Could see quite a lot of the SC though.

 

If that is the only problem. Would give Albon a fighting chance to get closer to the front.

[Retrofly]

Could see quite a lot of the SC though.

Im fine with that, people should be punished more for spinning and going wide, not having acres of concrete to play with. I dont even think it would be too much of a problem, they could probably just add strips gravel then transition back to grass, so it stops people leaving the track but then there's nothing to get beached on from a full spin/crash.

[BRG]

If sausage kerbs are dangerous, how are the walls at Monaco and other tracks deemed to be safe?  I would rather run over a bit of a bump than cream the car into the wall.

[ArchieTech]

If sausage kerbs are dangerous, how are the walls at Monaco and other tracks deemed to be safe?  I would rather run over a bit of a bump than cream the car into the wall.

Have you seen the videos in the opening post? Cars can literally launch off these types of kerb, sometimes a very considerable height and distance with it being very unpredictable what they will hit and in which orientation. If a car comes straight down on its wheels for example, then there's not really any energy absorbing structures to cushion the landing, let alone the launch in the first place. In a number of cases they've launched a car that is already out of control as a result of another accident.

[BRG]

The point of those kerbs is to discourage drivers from driving over them.  Which isn't working.  The real answer is to ENFORCE THE DAMNED TRACK LIMITS RULES PROPERLY

[Myrvold]

You sure? It's another FIM track. In this F3 race they regularly go outside white lines. Temporary sausage kerbs feature inside some slow corners.

 

https://eu.motorspor...lo-race-2/27972

 

While the green area outside the kerbs are a bit to big for what I like, there is a difference between this and the F1 style runoff.

Here there are far more tarmac at turn in, and then it gradually gets less and less, and there are virtually no tarmac runoff when you come to the kerbs and green area. If I'm not totally wrong this is how motorcycle guys want, also, IIRC they don't want purely tarmac runoff, as they need something to throw the bike and rider apart/slow the bike down. Something that we saw was needed in Barcelona in 2016.

 

If sausage kerbs are dangerous, how are the walls at Monaco and other tracks deemed to be safe?  I would rather run over a bit of a bump than cream the car into the wall.

 

They are not. Not really. Monaco in terms of pure safety rating doesn't qualify for a grade 1. However, exceptions and so on.