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HWA planning hydrogen racing series


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#1 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:34

HWA AG Official @hwaag_official
Are you ready for the HYRAZE League? Together with renowned partners we presented a concept for a brand-new series with zero-emission high-performance cars. Let's make the world a better race!

 

200814_HWA_HYRAZE_Outdoor_SideHeck_A006.
 

Thanks to state-of-the-art technology, action-packed motorsport, resource conservation and safety are not contradictory in the HYRAZE League. The races are held with 800 hp hydrogen cars. The energy for the emission-free drive is supplied by green hydrogen, which is converted into electricity for the 4 electric motors in the two fuel cells of the racing cars. The new technology also has a significant advantage for the racing drivers: thanks to the energy concept optimized for sprint races, they can use the full performance of the vehicle without restrictions over the entire race distance. Thanks to the possibility of filling the two tanks quickly during a race - a fundamental advantage that hydrogen technology offers compared to purely battery electric vehicles - the races can be extended at any time, even over long distances.

 

https://www.sharesma...n-with-E-Sports



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#2 Muppetmad

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:37

Sounds fun - and relevant too.



#3 Hyatt

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:40

Hydrogen is bs from energy pov, but maybe it makes good racing. Lets see ....



#4 Risil

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:41

HYRAZE? I suppose if they called it Formula H it would sound a bit like a haemorrhoid cream.



#5 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:45

Just realised that DMSB/ADAC is the involved sanctioning body, which is interesting.
 

ADAC e.V., DEKRA SE, DMSB e.V., HWA AG, Schaeffler AG and WESA joined forces today to present a future-oriented concept for sustainable motorsport at a project presentation in Stuttgart.
 
https://www.automobi...e---211027.html


ITR revealed their 'DTM 2030 Vision' at the end of last year which included hydrogen as an option in really not disimilar a concept from this.


Edited by Vielleicht, 18 August 2020 - 13:55.


#6 Risil

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:47

BMW have been interested in hydrogen racing cars for ages, haven't they?



#7 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 13:49

BMW have been interested in hydrogen racing cars for ages, haven't they?

Couple of years ago they were pushing for hydrogen to be allowed at Le Mans by 2024

 

https://www.autospor...th-hydrogen-car

 

edit: used the correct link this time


Edited by Vielleicht, 18 August 2020 - 13:54.


#8 Ben1445

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 14:09

Sounds like a bold initial vision that would probably end up watered down if it makes it to active competition. But it all fits with what I'd expect from a high tech race series start up for the 2020s. 

 

This is the kind of thing the DTM should have been actively pursuing. 



#9 Ben1445

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 14:19

Hydrogen is bs from energy pov, but maybe it makes good racing. Lets see ....

I don't think it is necessarily so from a general energy perspective, but it doesn't really seem to be something that private ownership car manufacturers are pursuing as avidly as battery electric right now.

 

That could certainly shape the kind of competitors/suppliers you might get. 



#10 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 14:35

Just to summarise the concept:
 
HYRAZE League
- Green hydrogen energy source, used in fuel cells
- 800 hp, 4 wheel drive by electric motors
- Brake dust evacuation and storage (...ok...)
- Tyres from renewable raw material and highly limted allocation (a la Formula E)
- Sprint race optimised, endurance capable

- Steer-by-wire with possible torque vectoring
- Open chassis design from natural-fibre composites (I doubt this for the safety cell but ok) free from production model reference
- Very limited aerodynamic downforce, avoiding aerodynamic competition and extending braking zones for better racing/energy recovery

- Full eSports integration with teams fielding both a real world and an eSports racer, both of which count towards teams points
- Technology of the first generation of cars is based largely on standard cars/parts (pretty common launch startegy for such things)

 

 

So...very bold and ambitious really.


Edited by Vielleicht, 18 August 2020 - 14:37.


#11 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 14:44

Official Website



#12 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 15:16

Sounds like a bold initial vision that would probably end up watered down if it makes it to active competition. But it all fits with what I'd expect from a high tech race series start up for the 2020s. 

 

This is the kind of thing the DTM should have been actively pursuing. 

 

Shouldn't that be watered up in this context?  :rotfl:



#13 Myrvold

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 15:32

Well, BWT is an obvious sponsor here

#14 Jovanotti

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 15:33

Imo Hydrogen is the way that F1 should have taken from 2026 onwards.

Edited by Jovanotti, 18 August 2020 - 15:33.


#15 Vielleicht

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 15:34

BWT do indeed sponsor TU Delft's LMP3 based Hydrogen racer already

 

1024px-Forze_VIII_at_Gamma_Racing_Day_20



#16 maximilian

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 15:37

Stupid name, but good to see hydrogen get some love (or I should say fuel cells, as questions remain about just how "green" hydrogen really is during its manufacturing process).



#17 BobbyRicky

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 16:18

Sounds like a bold initial vision that would probably end up watered down if it makes it to active competition. But it all fits with what I'd expect from a high tech race series start up for the 2020s. 

 

This is the kind of thing the DTM should have been actively pursuing. 

 

I see what you did there.



#18 jcbc3

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 19:04

Stupid name, but good to see hydrogen get some love (or I should say fuel cells, as questions remain about just how "green" hydrogen really is during its manufacturing process).

 

If produced through electrolysis through windmills it's the greenest thing imaginable.



#19 Capeta

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 19:17

Hydrogen is the future of automotive, it's already decided, China said it. First relevant serie to come, and real power, unlike FE.



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#20 Ben1445

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 19:49

Hydrogen is the future of automotive, it's already decided, China said it. First relevant serie to come, and real power, unlike FE.

Please, do elaborate? 



#21 Capeta

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 20:03

Well, it's no secret they push it and want more than a million car powered by hydrogen by 2030.

You can find many news from late 2019 to lately that will confirm that.

And as the electric isn't viable long terme because, well, we can only produce so much electricity by nuclear, but nobody want nuclear (bar India who's making the biggest nuclear powerplant ever), and it's not cheaper (when it's the case, that's because less tax, but if everybody goes that way, full tax come and then it's way less economical than petrol produced fuel, wich is in turn and that's hilarious, way less coslty to produce than ethanol, wich also take ressource that we can use for food).

But I'm just a reader and my opinion is certainly flawed at some point, so, don't take it too seriously.

Appart from the hydrogen will be the future, that's going to happen.



#22 MikeV1987

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 20:09

This is the kind of green energy I can get behind. I don’t buy that batteries are the future, they seem pretty wasteful to me.

#23 Ben1445

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 20:31

Well, it's no secret they push it and want more than a million car powered by hydrogen by 2030.

You can find many news from late 2019 to lately that will confirm that.

And as the electric isn't viable long terme because, well, we can only produce so much electricity by nuclear, but nobody want nuclear (bar India who's making the biggest nuclear powerplant ever), and it's not cheaper (when it's the case, that's because less tax, but if everybody goes that way, full tax come and then it's way less economical than petrol produced fuel, wich is in turn and that's hilarious, way less coslty to produce than ethanol, wich also take ressource that we can use for food).

But I'm just a reader and my opinion is certainly flawed at some point, so, don't take it too seriously.

Appart from the hydrogen will be the future, that's going to happen.

See, I don't doubt that hydrogen will be a part of the energy mix in the future. I just doubt it is the sole future of the automotive sector. I'm pretty sure it will play a strong part in transportation (rail, heavy goods, shipping etc.) but I reckon less far so in privately owned cars. 

 

Interesting that you mention generation capacity as a reason as to why. Most of today's hydrogen supply (~95%) comes from fossil fuels. Green hydrogen (like this series plans to use) produced through processes such as electrolysis use electricity which would need to be generated from a renewable source. The efficiency of that electrolysis process and converting it back into electricity through a fuel cell is not great compared to that of storing the electricity in a battery. The net result is you might well need more renewable generation capacity to make green hydrogen work than you would a battery electric car. 

 

To reach the speed and endurance that this series is proposing to do cleanly, yeah, you probably do need hydrogen in the near term. I don't think there's too much to complain about if they pull it off. For me this would be almost more about the racing and the technology to achieve that level of performance than it is about selling cars. In many people's books that should be a very good thing indeed. 



#24 Ben1445

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 21:28

Found the launch event livestream video 



#25 GlenWatkins

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 22:57

If produced through electrolysis through windmills it's the greenest thing imaginable.

 

Yeah, but with the amount of electricity needed to break the hydrogen - oxygen bond you would need an impossible amount of windmills to attempt a commercial venture, and no one yet has been willing to put up that kind of dough to bet that the wind will blow enough (or a steady amount of sunlight in the case of solar power) to produce a commercially viable quantity.of H2.



#26 Albertino

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 02:32

The issue with any renewable is that it's not a great solution by itself. I was an engineer for a company that designed and manufactured Hydrogen generators that operated via electrolysis.

 

Hydrogen Cars - Requires massive amounts of electricity to split water, easy to compress, easy to refuel. We had a station that could fuel tanks at 15kpsi

Pure Electric Cars  - Batteries are still inhibitive, slow charging, depends where the electricity comes from (Nuclear is actually the best solution, but hey.)

Solar - "Free electricity," weak production

 

A hydrogen series would be cool, though I probably couldn't care to watch. There's so many racing series out there, what kind of market do they think they can capture? 



#27 Hyatt

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 06:08

btw are fuelcell already that powerful so they don't need big buffer-batteries anymore? how big/heavy would a fuelcell be in order to provide 800hp?



#28 jcbc3

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 07:01



btw are fuelcell already that powerful so they don't need big buffer-batteries anymore? how big/heavy would a fuelcell be in order to provide 800hp?

 

I believe, they will always need a intermediary battery to modulate power output (or rather input to the electric engine).

 

There are several different kinds of Fuel Cell. https://www.energy.g...ll-technologies

From that table it seems that the best for transportation are AFC and PEM. Size wise I don't know, but HWA apparently believe they can manage the packaging into the car and get the desired power.



#29 Beri

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 07:48

This is the kind of green energy I can get behind. I don’t buy that batteries are the future, they seem pretty wasteful to me.


This, exactly this is what I've been saying all along.

I'm happy that a (potentially) strong racing series is being put on the tables. Now, the fact that hydrogen doesn't really make sense (not yet) energy wise seen, hopefully isn't slowing this idea down. They will have to start somewhere and sometime, better do it now.

#30 Ben1445

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 08:13

These cars will still have a not insignificant battery as a necessary part of the system. 

 

Main interest for me right now is that this is an ADAC initiative for a 2023 timescale. The parallels between this and the floated DTM 2030 vision for a 'concept for a 1000bhp electric or hydrogen support series to the DTM' of late last year (sooo out of touch) is not unnoticed. Also that DTM is in deep trouble because ADAC already runs GT3 and TCR categories that they could potentially have called back on when Audi leaves at the end of the year and Class One in Europe collapses. 

 

Feels like the ADAC is running to take the opportunity that the DTM has left wide open for them... 


Edited by Ben1445, 19 August 2020 - 08:17.


#31 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 15:54

HYRAZE?

Apparnetly it comes from Hydrogen Racing Zero Emissions.

 

Which is not obvious at all.



#32 Risil

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 16:10

Oh, we can all play that game.

 

Vielectrification, low emissions? I can't hate that!



#33 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 18:07

Screenshot-2020-08-19-at-19-06-06.png



#34 jcbc3

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 20:31

Speaking of making Hydrogen from electrolysis. There's a large scale project being planned in Denmark for this purpose: https://www.maersk.c...le-fuel-project

 

The company I work for joined the consortium yesterday, so isn't mentioned in the linked article.



#35 Sash1

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 22:27

If produced through electrolysis through windmills it's the greenest thing imaginable.


Only problem is that windmills currently provide less than 5% of Western energy demand. There is not enough room to even provide 50. And they want to electrify the transport? Doesn't matter if you fill batteries or use it to extract hydrogen, you need to go nuclear or fusion.
Solar panel waste will become a huge problem. Not a real option either.

#36 Ben1445

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 22:48

Only problem is that windmills currently provide less than 5% of Western energy demand. There is not enough room to even provide 50. And they want to electrify the transport? Doesn't matter if you fill batteries or use it to extract hydrogen, you need to go nuclear or fusion.
Solar panel waste will become a huge problem. Not a real option either.

Well, I think we can all quite easily manage the logical leap that we're not going to only use wind farms alone to meet our global energy demands. So why talk about it as though that is what we are trying to do here? 

 

Just by objective practical thinking and observation of trends, what we will see in coming years is an increasingly renewable energy mix from multiple methods alongside introduction of other net-zero processes to phase out carbon emissions. There is no magic bullet - just loads of practical steps we can and should take to reduce the impact of our energy demand. Hydrogen produced by electricity from wind turbine will be a part of that. 

 

Edit: also, what leads you to say that solar panel waste would be a huge problem? The materials used to make them are readily available, non-hazardous and around 95% of a panel can be recycled at the end of life. 


Edited by Ben1445, 19 August 2020 - 22:57.


#37 jcbc3

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 06:58

Only problem is that windmills currently provide less than 5% of Western energy demand. There is not enough room to even provide 50. And they want to electrify the transport? Doesn't matter if you fill batteries or use it to extract hydrogen, you need to go nuclear or fusion.
Solar panel waste will become a huge problem. Not a real option either.

 

In fact I agree. If we are really serious about reducing CO2 levels on a global scale, there is no way around nuclear.

 

But for this developed world Denmark is already around 45% coverage through wind mills. We, of course, also have the climate for it and an immense coastline compared to our size, so can make off shore mill parks much easier.



#38 Vielleicht

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 08:50

Main interest for me right now is that this is an ADAC initiative for a 2023 timescale. The parallels between this and the floated DTM 2030 vision for a 'concept for a 1000bhp electric or hydrogen support series to the DTM' of late last year (sooo out of touch) is not unnoticed. Also that DTM is in deep trouble because ADAC already runs GT3 and TCR categories that they could potentially have called back on when Audi leaves at the end of the year and Class One in Europe collapses. 

 

Feels like the ADAC is running to take the opportunity that the DTM has left wide open for them...

I suppoose the DTM 2030 thing was from before Audi's involvement was thrown into immediate doubt, so they weren't really expecting the series to collapse within a year of revealing it. They probably should have been far more aware of the shifting sands in the industry... but here we are.

 

If ADAC crack hydrogen racing with HYRAZE and it becomes a sort of DTM replacement (bespoke composite chassis, GT/Touring style bodywork) there would be other options for DTM in my view. Modififed racing versions of production flagship EVs for example. I think it would be befitting of the DTM's history to race things like the Mercedes EQS, Porsche Taycan, BMW i4, Audi e-tron GT, VW ID.5, Opel Insigna-E (or whetever they might call it)...  could even get the tuning groups in (in-house and independants) to do it and mature/prove their EV expertise. The collapse of DTM as we know it basically opens the door for a more fundamental change like this.

 

HYRAZE isn't a guarenteed success though, and there's a lot of work to go to take this from concept reveal today to a race-ready series by 2023 and international expansion in 2025.



#39 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 18:09

Hydrogen power is perhaps the best way forward for passenger cars, but I can’t imagine a lot of people following a racing series with cars that sound like vacuum cleaners and the crap gimmicks these guys are proposing.

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#40 SagemX

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 18:20

Hydrogen power is perhaps the best way forward for passenger cars, but I can’t imagine a lot of people following a racing series with cars that sound like vacuum cleaners and the crap gimmicks these guys are proposing.

Only if people don't want to change from the 'traditional' way of using a car, refueling it when it runs low from a station, whereas if people change to top up charging with an electric car, that works better, topping it up every day at home and at work etc, pretty much always having full batteries/range when they go into the vehicle.



#41 Ben1445

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 18:23

Hydrogen power is perhaps the best way forward for passenger cars, but I can’t imagine a lot of people following a racing series with cars that sound like vacuum cleaners and the crap gimmicks these guys are proposing.

How do you define 'a lot of people'? 



#42 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 01:29

How do you define 'a lot of people'?


Enough for the series to stay afloat.

#43 Vielleicht

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Posted 24 August 2020 - 16:26

Gerhard Berger weighs in...
 
Gerhard Berger “curious about new hydrogen car”
https://www.touringc...e-hydrogen-car/
 

“I am following all innovations and concepts related to the future of motorsport with great interest,” Berger told TouringCarTimes.

“To me, it is perfectly clear that motorsport has to go through a serious transition in order to better demonstrate its aim for sustainability and for professional racing in particular to become the pioneer in terms of development and technology for production cars again.”

 

[...]

 

“To me, the time frame [for HYRAZE] is an extremely ambitious one, but I think that the project makes sense,” he said. “I am convinced that hydrogen technology will be playing a role in the future.”

 

[...]

“Which drive technology eventually makes its breakthrough and is suited to providing attractive racing for the fans, we will see in a few years from now,” continued Berger.

“Whoever succeeds in turning such a project into reality will be setting an example. From my perspective, the fact that the partners who have now presented the [HYRAZE] project have been significantly involved in motorsport for a very long time already is a good place to start from. I am curious to see the hydrogen car in a race for the first time.”


Edited by Vielleicht, 24 August 2020 - 16:26.


#44 Ben1445

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 09:20

That's actually some encouraging words from Berger. 

 

Shame it took the collapse of Class One and potentially the DTM altogether for him to realise. 



#45 ATM

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 19:01

Curious, says Gerhard. Well, aren’t we all. It will take a lot more than an acronim, some CGI renders and “brake dust collectors” ideas to actually make it work. Honest opinion- not in 2023.

#46 balage06

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 19:58

I've been thinking about why my excitement for car racing started to slowly fade away nowadays and I think the problem is that the original concept of racing was fairly simple: finding the limits of human and machine with the least possible amount of compromise. But this idea alone doesn't sell well in the 21st century, because nowadays reliability, consistency and sustainability are valued much more than uncompromised performance. And that's my problem with these new concepts, they are not solely about competing anymore, there has to be some sort of idea/agenda to sell behind them, which is more important than the quality of the racing product itself. And if I take those formulas which are considered popular today amongst manufacturers, like GT3, TCR or even FE, from a pure racing perspective they all give me a bitter feeling of something is missing compared to their predecessors (despite being curious about new technology). I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy.


Edited by balage06, 25 August 2020 - 20:00.


#47 Ben1445

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 21:56

And that is basically why the future of pure combustion racing at the professional levels is as good as dead. 

 

Chasing the absolute limits of performance costs a lot of money. The money pay for pure combustion cars to perform at the very limits of man and machine won't be there because industry is having to phase out their focus the technology and sponsors won't want to be associated with it as much because of the impact of the climate crisis. Because of that, pure combustion racing will have to become less complex and hence not as fast or as boundary pushing as it was and the quality of the drivers racing there will decrease. They will become increasingly like GT3 or TCR, with measures such as Balance of Performance in order to keep competition interesting as it can't rely on being at the technological fringe anymore as its key draw. The racing becomes hollow and people lose interest and excitement for it. That means it becomes less valuable for sponsors and only compounds the issue further. Those who only care about sporting side of things and are technology ambivalent will seek out the places with the best drivers which will increasingly be the series adopting new technologies. Those who want to see racing pushing boundaries of man and machine either move on to watch technological boundaries being pushed in new, relevant areas for the 21st century... or they stop watching entirely because the aspects of the sport that drew them in no longer exist for them anymore. 

 

Of course, I could be wrong about all that... I just really don't think I am. 



#48 Ben1445

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 11:58

Thought this one was dead in the water? Well, maybe not! but also probably still is. However, there is a prototype with the base technology which is running around at Hockenheim. 
 
ZEDU-1-Hockenheimring-Demofahrt-Hyraze-L
 
First off, the thing has no conventional disc brakes. One aim is to remove brake dust emissions into the air, and it sets to achieve this through a combination of regenerative braking and lamella friction brakes (similar to a clutch) which can remove ablated material via an oil circuit and later filtered out. 
 
Another aim was to heavily reduce tyre particulate emissions, hence the enclosed wheels. Apparently they have fitted a fan unit which sucks out the particles within the wheel arch and passes it through a filter.
 
"After first tests of the ZEDU-1 were completed, the DLR reported that is was able to capture and sequester 100% of fine particulates and microplastics caused by brake wear and by tire wear up to 50 km/h. Above that speed, the system was able to reduce FPM pollution from tire wear by 70 to 80%."
https://cleantechnic...ver-knew-about/
 
Will a follow on racing version of this prototype ever race as intended? Errrr still maybe not.

"As ADAC, we are absolutely open to technology," describes sports president Dr. Gerd Ennser. "We will race for the vehicles that the manufacturers want. What we know: That it makes sense, that we are open to all possibilities that are offered technically." If the Hyraze League came with its hydrogen-powered vehicles, "it's okay for us. If not, we have possibilities and formats for other types of drives. Whatever comes, we'll take it."

https://e-formel.de/...heim-15241.html

 

So yeah. Interesting. 



#49 Muppetmad

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 12:26

As renewables become cheaper and cheaper, the prospects for green hydrogen will only increase. Various obstacles remain, but I think a hydrogen racing series could be precisely what is needed to try to overcome some of those obstacles.



#50 highdownforce

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 19:49

Yeah, but with the amount of electricity needed to break the hydrogen - oxygen bond you would need an impossible amount of windmills to attempt a commercial venture, and no one yet has been willing to put up that kind of dough to bet that the wind will blow enough (or a steady amount of sunlight in the case of solar power) to produce a commercially viable quantity.of H2.


Green hydrogen plants are under board approval right now on some energy companies.
Countries that already have a more cleaner and renewable energy grid can benefit from that earlier.

Think in hydrogen not as a energy source, what it isn't, but rather as an energy transportation device.

Fuel cells can be pretty hand in countries with electric recharge infrastructure lagging behind.