28 replies to this topic

[jacko]

Looking through my stash of old magazines, I came across an article by Mauro Forghieri in an issue of "Cavallino" dated Feb/Mar 1998. In it he states, and I quote, "his (Bandini's) death at Monte Carlo was the reason that we lost to Ford in the 24 hour race that was held in June."

 

Checking back I find that his time in the P3/4 set at the April 1967 test session would have been joint 4th fastest in practice for the race, just over a second away from Bruce McLaren's pole. The car itsself was sitting quite handily until it was destroyed by fire caused when an attempt was made to limp to the pits following a puncture.

 

Given his two great wins that year at Daytona and Monza with Chris Amon and his charge up to a very close second behind Dan Gurney in the Race of Champions, I wonder whether Lorenzo might have been "best of the rest" that year behind the two very fast but fragile Lotus 49s had that dreadful accident not happened in Monaco.

 

I still remember Raymond Baxter, almost in tears, giving us the news of that awful afternoon. So sad.

 

 

[rl1856]

Excellent question.   I suspect a Bandini driven P4 would have been faster than the Parkes driven P4.   But the Ford MK-IVs and top spec MK-IIs were faster than either.  How much would have Bandini pushed the top Fords, and would have have forced Gurney/Foyt into a mistake ? Fords were running 1-2-3-6, with Ferraris 4-5 until the Andretti accident.  Would Bandini have pushed his car into the top 3, would his pace have forced Andretti et al to have driven faster/differently ?   If the later is possible then the accident that took out several Fords within a few min may not have occurred.  We are dealing with "what if" 53yrs later, so there are many additional variables to consider, if just one variable is changed.  Heck, what if Chapparal had a better transmission earlier in the season ?

[Myhinpaa]

The car used for that test by Bandini and Amon was the recently upgraded to P4 spec. 330 P3 0846, hence referred to as "P3/4"

 

https://www.racingsp...1967-04-09.html

 

https://sw-ke.facebo...?type=3

 

https://www.racingsp...46 [330P3].html

 

The car was broken up at Maranello and any usable parts was saved for spares, chassis cut up and scrapped.

 

http://www.barchetta.../0846.330P3.htm

 

However..., in 2002 Jim Glickenhaus casually claimed that he owned that car and had bought it from David Piper two years earlier.

This set off a most comprehensive debate thread on Ferrarichat : https://www.ferraric...-thread.423520/

 

During this (especially due to "MiuraSV") it was found out to be a replica built by various bits from David Piper's huge stock of P3 + 4 parts.

Amongst this was a replica chassis that Piper had remade in Italy many years ago. ("DP0003") and at no stage did Piper pass it off as 0846.

 

Glickenhaus managed to persuade many people that it was indeed the genuine chassis from 0846, including ex-SF mechanics + Mauro Forghieri!

This was well and truly proven not to be the case and the engine is originally a 3 litre F1 unit with some very improvised and suspect engine mounts.

 

This led to Jim Glickenhaus ("Napolis") quitting Ferraichat altogether.... He still claims that his 0846 is the original and genuine item.

 

https://youtu.be/gaut6pBx3mI?t=61

 

He himself have been very dismissive of people claiming originality of replica GT40s in the past.

He owns the genuine '67 Le Mans McLaren/Donohue GT40 Mk.IV #J6, and should be respected for his research and honesty about that car.

 

https://www.racingsp...to/J6__Mk4.html

 

https://www.autoweek...two-ford-gt40s/

 

 

 

 

[RCH]

Surely the comment had more to do with the morale within the team than Bandini's actual abilities within the race?

[Roger Clark]

I think there is little doubt that Bandini stepped up when John Surtees left Ferrari and he was driving better than at any time in his career.  We will never know whether that would have continued if Chris Amon had proved faster.

[rl1856]

How much of Bandini's initial improvement came from preferential treatment within the team ?   Monaco 66 is a prime example; Surtees wanted the Dino V6 car, but it was given to Bandini, while Surtees was forced to use the V12.   Surtees felt he could have won the race had he driven a more suitable car.   I am not denigrating Bandini's talent, as he seemed to take a step forward in 66.  Perhaps a move to more powerful cars better suited his driving style ?

[jj2728]

If memory serves correctly, Bandini had his fair share of 'Amon luck' in '66 at the French, Italian and U.S. GPs.

[Doug Nye]

Bandini was very capable but his best team-mates - including, in order, John Surtees, Chris Amon and even Michael Parkes felt confident they could handle him, especially the first two and particularly John.  So far as his best rivals were concerned - Clark, Graham Hill, Dan Gurney and relatively new boy Jackie Stewart - Bandini was never considered to be a major threat.

 

On another tack - concerning Piper replica owner Glickenhaus - Post 3 above - I was 'mildly' surprised when he began to claim that the car he had just bought from David for replica money was in fact the mortal remains of '0846'.  The inference was that Pipes had been too dim to appreciate what he had actually offered for sale.  

 

I might believe this of some traders and wheeler dealers but of David Piper???? - selling a Ferrari????? - without appreciating what it actually embodied?????...  Dream on.

 

My oh my.  Here's a definition of purblind optimism if ever I saw one.  Or perhaps of something less deserving of sympathy.

 

DCN

[E1pix]

The latter. I have a particular disdain for liars.

As seen on TNF, there was a guy over here claiming his McLaren M8F was in fact Revson’s. Thanks again to those, including Peter’s sister, for exposing the wanker.

[Alan Baker]

The argument that Bandini was faster than Parkes does not hold up to examination. In 1966 Parkes was drafted into the Ferrari F1 team, having not driven a single seater in years. To accommodate his height a special long chassis 312/66 was built (chassis 0012) which was presumably heavier than the normal chassis to which could be added Mike's personal weight disadvantage. In the four races in which they both competed, the qualifying record between them is 2/2, Parkes record being P3,P5,P7,P1 and Bandini P1, P9, P6, P5. And, of course, Parkes actually won a race in a 312 (the 1967 International Trophy at Silverstone, two if you count that year's Syracuse Grand Prix) whereas Bandini never did.

[Roger Clark]

How much of Bandini's initial improvement came from preferential treatment within the team ?   Monaco 66 is a prime example; Surtees wanted the Dino V6 car, but it was given to Bandini, while Surtees was forced to use the V12.   Surtees felt he could have won the race had he driven a more suitable car.   I am not denigrating Bandini's talent, as he seemed to take a step forward in 66.  Perhaps a move to more powerful cars better suited his driving style ?

Surtees led at Monaco until his retirement so the V12 can't really be said to be unsuitable.  I find it interesting that Ferrari favoured Bandini in 66 by making Surtees drive the new V12 and in early 65 by not letting Surtees drive the new flat-12.  Devious people.

[2F-001]

The argument that Bandini was faster than Parkes does not hold up to examination. 

 

Well, he had a faster name… ‘Lorenzo Bandini’ sounds (to my English ears, at least) like a synonym for ‘racing driver’!

 

Bandini was someone who I knew next to nothing about until after his death. As I was just ten at the time of that Monaco race, the reporting and pictures of his crash was probably the first time I became fully aware of the true potential horrors of a big racing accident. 

 

As a child I knew the pain of a small burn on arm or finger from the stove, boiling water, or maybe a soldering iron (or even a wickedly overheated slot car motor) and how nasty that was; the thought of being trapped and burned all over filled me with horror. For me, that wiped away some of the glamour of it all.

[Gary Davies]

Lump in throat time. I still recall, sitting in the lounge at home as a teenager, watching the BBC broadcast and noting poor Bandini's head sagging as he was obviously tiring towards the end of the race. Just dreadful.  

[Sisyphus]

The argument that Bandini was faster than Parkes does not hold up to examination. In 1966 Parkes was drafted into the Ferrari F1 team, having not driven a single seater in years. To accommodate his height a special long chassis 312/66 was built (chassis 0012) which was presumably heavier than the normal chassis to which could be added Mike's personal weight disadvantage. In the four races in which they both competed, the qualifying record between them is 2/2, Parkes record being P3,P5,P7,P1 and Bandini P1, P9, P6, P5. And, of course, Parkes actually won a race in a 312 (the 1967 International Trophy at Silverstone, two if you count that year's Syracuse Grand Prix) whereas Bandini never did.

Bandini won the 1964 F1 race at the Zeltweg airfield course and had several seconds and thirds so I don't think Zeltweg can be just considered a lucky win because so many other cars broke on that very rough track.  He also won at Pergusa (non-championship) in 1962.

 

Not enough data to make a direct comparison in F1 but I'd go with Bandini as the better single seater driver.  He certainly had more experience.  In sports cars, maybe they were closer.  Different styles, I think.

[Doug Nye]

What is true is that Bandini had far more single-seater experience than Parkes - although the latter had driven in both Formula 2 and Junior.

 

DCN

[john aston]

Well, he had a faster name… ‘Lorenzo Bandini’ sounds (to my English ears, at least) like a synonym for ‘racing driver’!

 

Bandini was someone who I knew next to nothing about until after his death. As I was just ten at the time of that Monaco race, the reporting and pictures of his crash was probably the first time I became fully aware of the true potential horrors of a big racing accident. 

 

As a child I knew the pain of a small burn on arm or finger from the stove, boiling water, or maybe a soldering iron (or even a wickedly overheated slot car motor) and how nasty that was; the thought of being trapped and burned all over filled me with horror. For me, that wiped away some of the glamour of it all.

It had a profound effect on me too. I was a couple of years older, and had developed the obsession with cars and motorsport earlier that year . Whilst aware of the sport's dangers already from the newspapers , now it had become my sport , Bandini's death made me realise that motor racing wasn't a frivolity, like most sports, but serious and potentially lethal  . It  instilled a respect for the sport  and its participants in me - possibly the first grown up emotion I had experienced . And I don't mind admitting that its dark side elevated it to something infinitely more important than how well Leeds United were doing in the cup.

[2F-001]

That photograph in Louis Stanley's book didn't help me much either.

Edited by 2F-001, 28 August 2020 - 11:16.

[Odseybod]

Seeing Peter Proctor's Goodwood crash from relatively close quarters was my sudden dose of reality. I was about 15 at the time.

Edited by Odseybod, 28 August 2020 - 12:12.

[2F-001]

That must have been ghastly, Tony. Some of the pictures of that incident are also ones that I'd rather not have to look at again.

 

(I only really became aware of Mr Proctor when he appeared that advertisement, endorsing Les Leston racewear .)

[Odseybod]

Yes, not great, to put it mildly. Then again, maybe not such a shock as it would have been today. Back then (1966?), 'badly burned' was quite a familiar phrase in race reports, which to this callow youth didn't realy mean that much until you saw it actually happening (though I take the point in your earlier post about soldering irons and rewound Mabuchi motors in slot cars, which certainly gave you a clue). Of course, perhaps different for those who grew up in WW2 against the background of injuries to pilots, tank crews, etc.

 

Sorry, back to Signor Bandini.

[doc knutsen]

That photograph in Louis Stanley's book didn't help me much either.

It was horrible. I threw that book in the garbage, without even reading it through.

[john aston]

I cant recall whether it was the film about Frank Williams or Bruce McLaren - the former I think - but a shot of Bandini was included . It was shocking and entirely  gratuitous .

[miurasv]

The car used for that test by Bandini and Amon was the recently upgraded to P4 spec. 330 P3 0846, hence referred to as "P3/4"

 

https://www.racingsp...1967-04-09.html

 

https://sw-ke.facebo...?type=3

 

https://www.racingsp...46 [330P3].html

 

The car was broken up at Maranello and any usable parts was saved for spares, chassis cut up and scrapped.

 

http://www.barchetta.../0846.330P3.htm

 

However..., in 2002 Jim Glickenhaus casually claimed that he owned that car and had bought it from David Piper two years earlier.

This set off a most comprehensive debate thread on Ferrarichat : https://www.ferraric...-thread.423520/

 

During this (especially due to "MiuraSV") it was found out to be a replica built by various bits from David Piper's huge stock of P3 + 4 parts.

Amongst this was a replica chassis that Piper had remade in Italy many years ago. ("DP0003") and at no stage did Piper pass it off as 0846.

 

Glickenhaus managed to persuade many people that it was indeed the genuine chassis from 0846, including ex-SF mechanics + Mauro Forghieri!

This was well and truly proven not to be the case and the engine is originally a 3 litre F1 unit with some very improvised and suspect engine mounts.

 

This led to Jim Glickenhaus ("Napolis") quitting Ferraichat altogether.... He still claims that his 0846 is the original and genuine item.

 

https://youtu.be/gaut6pBx3mI?t=61

 

He himself have been very dismissive of people claiming originality of replica GT40s in the past.

He owns the genuine '67 Le Mans McLaren/Donohue GT40 Mk.IV #J6, and should be respected for his research and honesty about that car.

 

https://www.racingsp...to/J6__Mk4.html

 

https://www.autoweek...two-ford-gt40s/

Re Mr Glickenhaus and his research and honesty regarding his Ford GT MK IV see post on Fchat in the link  here. Please scroll down and read the full post.

Edited by miurasv, 23 October 2021 - 15:17.

[MarkBisset]

 

A couple of photographs of Lorenzo Bandini on his New Zealand-Australia southern summer tour of 1962.

 

Centro Sud Cooper T53 Maserati 2.9-litre  #F1-13-61. He was fourth in the Warwick Farm 100 behind the Moss, McLaren and Bib Stillwell Cooper T53s.

 

https://primotipo.co...vo-sydney-1962/

 

 

in the shot above he is dicing with very quick Kiwi farmer, Angus Hyslop’s Cooper T53. Angus was sixth that day, in a successful summer.

 

Photos by Bob Donaldson - State Library of NSW

 

Bandini was fifth in the NZ GP at Ardmore, Wigram Q6 and DNF oil leak, Teretonga DNF ignition, then to Australia and WF as above, Lakeside Q3 and sixth

 

Chris Amon raced his Maserati 250F in the NZ Internationals that summer, I wonder if the two later Ferrari teammates met that year?

Edited by MarkBisset, 08 January 2024 - 04:06.

[GreenMachine]

Re Mr Glickenhaus and his research and honesty regarding his Ford GT MK IV see post on Fchat in the link  here. Please scroll down and read the full post.

 

 The thread is 445 pages?         Is that right?

[Tom Glowacki]

 The thread is 445 pages?         Is that right?

Not that extraordinary when you realize it took 14 years to get there.

[Doug Nye]

I happened to be one of those at the forefront of pointing out the unlikelihood of Jim Glickenhaus's claims about the car he bought from David Piper being sustainable, in as much that for his claims to be true then Pipes - of all people - had never appreciated that the Ferrari he had assembled included the remains of such a significant ex-works team car - a foolish oversight which is so unlikely in his case as to be (to me) utterly inconceivable. 

 

In more recent years Jim Glickenhaus seemed to turn down the volume of his claims - and acquired a far more authentic 412P perhaps to compensate in some way for 'the special'.  This second car is the ex-Maranello Concessionaires machine which was itself badly damaged by fire - in its case at the East London circuit in South Africa - while in Pipes' ownership - after which it was rebuilt by his mechanics...with the accent on 're' rather than merely 'built'.

 

Against the background of his first ex-Piper special and the claims he had made so stridently for it, I had little regard for Mr Glickenhaus. 

 

However - in recent years as he campaigned his own Glickenhaus cars in the real racing world - not least at Le Mans - my regard for him and for what he was doing within the racing world became transformed.  At Goodwood last year I offered him newfound respect and admiration for what he has achieved, which he accepted - I would like to emphasise - with engaging humility, one life-long enthusiast to another.  Having talked the talk, he proved he could also walk the walk.  Respect.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 08 January 2024 - 20:52.

[cooper997]

Regarding Mark's post 24.

 

The 1962 Warwiick Farm International's programme driver profile for Lorenzo..

 

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Regarding Mark's post 24.

 

The 1962 Warwiick Farm International's programme driver profile for Lorenzo..

 

 

 

Stephen