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#1 William Hunt

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Posted 29 August 2020 - 20:31

How come IndyCar & NASCAR always run on anti-clockwise tracks and F1 (and European racing in general) almost always on clockwise (bar some exceptions like Imola, Houston or Interlagos) tracks?



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#2 D-Type

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Posted 29 August 2020 - 22:25

I think it has something to do with horses and much US Oval racing being originally run on horse tracks.



#3 E1pix

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 00:25

Most road courses in the States run clockwise. Exceptions of the major tracks coming to mind are Laguna Seca... and...?

I don’t know the first year of a two-seater car vs. our penchant for turning left, but believe drivers have always (or at least nearly so) sat on the left here for a hundred years or better. Whether that has any accurate bearing on your question, though I’m not sure.

The horse track theory seems familiar, too, and makes me wonder when running tracks came around. Left turns again.

#4 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 04:10

Most road courses in the States run clockwise. Exceptions of the major tracks coming to mind are Laguna Seca... and...?

 

Daytona, former Texas Word road course, Talladega road course, Michigan International.

 

There used to be one sprint car track, now defunct, where races were run both directions, during an event.

Do not know if I read in a magazine/book or online.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 30 August 2020 - 04:13.


#5 E1pix

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 04:14

I personally don’t count rovals as road courses.

Signed,
Rhode Ray Snob

:-)

#6 William Hunt

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:34

It's strange that Imola, in Europa, opted for anti clockwise them but I'm glad they did since it adds variety.
 



#7 La Sarthe

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 10:07

To muddy the waters slightly, how about tracks that have been run in both directions? - albeit not at the same time :lol:

 

They've recently started doing the odd meeting at Knockhill in an anti-clockwise direction for example.



#8 dgs

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 10:49

1952 Beveridge Park races (held in a municipal park -only twenty food wide track) 1.3 mile circuit

 

First meeting for motorcycles took park on 14-08-1947, run clockwise

 

By 1953 it was decided Formula 3 cars could race (5 only per race)

 

First meeting combined Motorcycle & Car meeting.  Motorcycle races ran on clockwise circuit. Car races ran on anti-clockwise circuit.

 

This happened a several meetings.



#9 Charlieman

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 11:13

I think it has something to do with horses and much US Oval racing being originally run on horse tracks.

I'm interested in this theory re county show grounds. Maybe bicycle racing in the US influenced the practice too.

 

What is the historical practice for short oval racing in Australia or UK, speedway internationally?



#10 BRG

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 11:30

There used to be one sprint car track, now defunct, where races were run both directions, during an event.

Do not know if I read in a magazine/book or online.

During an event?  That must have been.....interesting?  Makes figure of eight racing look a bit ordinary.

 

I'm interested in this theory re county show grounds. Maybe bicycle racing in the US influenced the practice too.

 

What is the historical practice for short oval racing in Australia or UK, speedway internationally?

In the UK, I think short ovals run anti-clockwise for stock cars but clockwise for hot rods & bangers.  Or perhaps vice versa.  I have no idea why.



#11 10kDA

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 11:43

WERA, I believe, occasionally ran one event per season in the opposite direction at Grattan MI, calling the event "Nattarg".



#12 bsc

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 11:48

In the UK, I think short ovals run anti-clockwise for stock cars but clockwise for hot rods & bangers. Or perhaps vice versa. I have no idea why.


As I understand it, stock cars run anti clockwise as they took the American convention. Bangers, Hot Rods and the like run clockwise as the bulk of the cars are right hand drive. Therefore if a car hits the wall, the driver is as far as possible away from the point of contact.

#13 BRG

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 11:50

As I understand it, stock cars run anti clockwise as they took the American convention. Bangers, Hot Rods and the like run clockwise as the bulk of the cars are right hand drive. Therefore if a car hits the wall, the driver is as far as possible away from the point of contact.

Ah, that makes perfect sense!  Especially as they hit the wall a LOT.



#14 pete53

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 12:16

I recall the first meeting at Aintree in the UK in 1954 was run anti-clockwise but after that races ran clockwise.

 

The Hutchinson 100 motor cycle meeting at Brands Hatch in the 60s was run anti-clockwise ( it looks really odd when you see old film of the event with the bikes dropping down from Druids and climbing Paddock Hill Bend))

 

Interestingly, as an aside, in athletics, track races are always run anti-clockwise (were they otherwise at any time?).



#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 13:45

I don't think there's a definitive answer to any of these questions, although anti-clockwise horse racing can apparently be traced to a track built by an Irish-American in Kentucky in the late eighteenth century.

 

https://horseracings...nter-clockwise/

 

Re pete53's question - it depended! See the quote from an IAAF document here:

 

https://www.anything...-clockwise.html

 

Motorcycle speedway and UK midget racing often used existing dog racing tracks, which were sometimes part of football stadia like Wembley or Stamford Bridge or even purpose-built like West Ham. Dogs race anti-clockwise as well, so of course it would be more convenient to use the existing finishing lines and timing gear installed for greyhound races. Several of these now-closed London dog tracks also hosted speedway and/or midgets, as did Belle Vue in Manchester:

 

https://www.onlinega...acks-in-london/



#16 Geoff E

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 13:59

In the first few meetings at Cadwell Park, sidecars raced clockwise, solo bikes anti-clockwise.



#17 Claudio Navonne

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 13:59

The Buenos Aires racetrack was designed to run counterclockwise, the design of the curves is such that everything opens up as you go along if you use it that way. As it is used, in European style, in a clockwise direction all the curves will be tightened as they are run, which makes them more difficult. Especially the first curve or "Curvón" which is a high speed curve of circuit No. 2 and No. 9 which were used for international single-seater races in the 50's, 60's and until 1973. In 1954 for the international races : the GP of the Argentine Republic, the Grand Prix of Buenos Aires and the 1000 km of the city of Buenos Aires the circuit was used in an anti-clockwise direction. But the use of that way proved to be very dangerous, because the cars came dangerously close to the pits to face the 1st curve that was very fast, causing in an accident the death of Enrico Platé, ex-driver and owner of a team, who was standing in the pits.



#18 Bloggsworth

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 15:10

The brake handle on covered wagons was on the left - Cowboys never used swords...



#19 E1pix

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 17:41

Here’s a brake lever on the right side of a covered wagon:
https://ericwunrow.p...JCJxaw--&GI_ID=

Here’s John Wayne with a sword:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=B8Bu-ZAmM6s

Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with your post. ;-)

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 17:42

The early European circuit races were run anti-clockwise, though the 1905 Gordon Bennett was an exception. An early map of the Le Mans circuit used for the 1906 Grand Prix (reproduced in Gerald Rose’s book) shows that it was planned to run clockwise but it was reversed for the race.  The 1913 Grand Prix at Amiens was run clockwise and this has been the convention ever since. 



#21 Jim Thurman

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 19:04

 

There used to be one sprint car track, now defunct, where races were run both directions, during an event.

Do not know if I read in a magazine/book or online.

 

Huh? I have never heard or read of anything remotely like this. It wasn't uncommon in the 1980s for short tracks to reverse direction for their most entry level stock car class, something that still goes on.

 

There were a few weeks in the 1930s at Atlantic Stadium in Los Angeles, where midgets ran on a "Figure 8" course that had an over/undercrossing.



#22 Rob G

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 19:22

Most road courses in the States run clockwise. Exceptions of the major tracks coming to mind are Laguna Seca... and...?

 

Circuit of the Americas (primarily an F1 track, I know) and Miller Motorsports Park are two others that run counter-clockwise.



#23 E1pix

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 19:45

How could I forget Miller...?

Tell you how, made the mistake of going there once. :-(

#24 Rob G

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 19:51

How could I forget Miller...?

Tell you how, made the mistake of going there once. :-(

 

I had considered going once, but I didn't want to invest in a pair of high-powered binoculars and three gallons of sunscreen.



#25 E1pix

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 20:27

Layout was fine, personnel and operations were horrid. 2007 Grand-Am.

#26 dolomite

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 21:05

I recall the first meeting at Aintree in the UK in 1954 was run anti-clockwise but after that races ran clockwise.

 

The Hutchinson 100 motor cycle meeting at Brands Hatch in the 60s was run anti-clockwise ( it looks really odd when you see old film of the event with the bikes dropping down from Druids and climbing Paddock Hill Bend))

 

Interestingly, as an aside, in athletics, track races are always run anti-clockwise (were they otherwise at any time?).

 

IIRC the earliest car racing meetings at Brands Hatch in the fifties were run anti-clockwise, prior to the addition of the Druids loop.

Edited by dolomite, 30 August 2020 - 21:08.


#27 Perruqueporte

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 21:09

I heard a similar question asked at a BRSCC evening in the ‘70s where the guest speaker was DSJ.

Jenks suggested that some circuits were better suited to left-handed drivers and riders, and vice-versa, and that if you presented your average driver with exact mirror images of the same corner, that driver would always be quicker one way rather than the other, and only the best drivers would be just as quick in each direction.

Incidentally - good quiz question - when Brands Hatch was changed from an anti-clockwise grass track circuit into a hard surfaced clockwise road racing circuit over the winter of 1950/51, the first person to lap the circuit once the asphalt had cooled sufficiently, did so on how many wheels? Answers please!

Christopher W.

#28 D-Type

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 21:49

~
Incidentally - good quiz question - when Brands Hatch was changed from an anti-clockwise grass track circuit into a hard surfaced clockwise road racing circuit over the winter of 1950/51, the first person to lap the circuit once the asphalt had cooled sufficiently, did so on how many wheels? Answers please!
 

Is it three - because he was driving a steamroller?



#29 Gary Jarlson

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 02:28

For a few races (I don't recall how many), Cal Club ran Willow Springs backwards (counter-clockwise.)



#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 04:07

I'm interested in this theory re county show grounds. Maybe bicycle racing in the US influenced the practice too.

 

What is the historical practice for short oval racing in Australia or UK, speedway internationally?

Mostly turn left. But some categories ran the other way, as do sidecars for bike racing. 

And things like street stocks run both ways at the toss of a coin. Or the opposite way to sprintcars at Sprintcar shows!!

Recently one meeting they ran 20 laps one way,, caution, then 20 the other way.

 

Road racing here in Oz goes both ways.  Probably depends on the topography to an extent. 

A couple of tracks have been run in both directions.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 31 August 2020 - 04:11.


#31 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 05:58

In this area, airport or purpose-built road circuits:

 

Defunct tracks: Bellingham and Shelton, Washington; Abbotsford and Westwood, BC; all clockwise

Current tracks: Pacific Raceways, Washington and Mission, BC - counter-clockwise; Portland, Oregon - clockwise

 

Vince H.


Edited by raceannouncer2003, 31 August 2020 - 05:58.


#32 Stephen W

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 07:01

Both Aintree and Pembrey have had events run in "both directions" but obviously not at the same time (although Pembrey did run events over a week-end with each day in a different direction).



#33 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 07:31

"Why do ovals run counter clockwise?"

 

Because, as is well known, horses have longer legs on the off side!

 

:smoking:



#34 D-Type

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 13:19

"Why do ovals run counter clockwise?"

 

Because, as is well known, horses have longer legs on the off side!

 

:smoking:

I thought that was the haggis - evolved for running around mountains.



#35 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 14:12

Okay, that would be the Hanghuhn in German. We have Linkshanghühner and Rechtshanghühner, destined to only ever meet once in life (which makes offspring unlikely, the poor things would topple helplessly down the slope). Do you have left haggis and right haggis as well? And is there a connection to that well known dish... on second thoughts, no, don't tell me!!



#36 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 18:34

It's strange that Imola, in Europa, opted for anti clockwise them but I'm glad they did since it adds variety.

Well, maybe if it had ran clockwise maybe Ayrton would have never have hit that wall...

Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 31 August 2020 - 18:35.


#37 E1pix

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 19:25

"Why do ovals run counter clockwise?"
 
Because, as is well known, horses have longer legs on the off side!
 
:smoking:

Staggering post.

#38 E1pix

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 19:41

I heard a similar question asked at a BRSCC evening in the ‘70s where the guest speaker was DSJ.
Jenks suggested that some circuits were better suited to left-handed drivers and riders, and vice-versa, and that if you presented your average driver with exact mirror images of the same corner, that driver would always be quicker one way rather than the other, and only the best drivers would be just as quick in each direction.
Christopher W.

Presuming Jenks meant “left-hand throwing?”

This is interesting, and I believe comes down to left- vs. right-brain leanings of individuals. I’m also a believer in distinct advantages of the ambidextrous.

Left turns always felt more “natural” to me in kart racing... but surmise that a mix of physiology we may or may not realize or control, and that I was left of kart center, if only by a few inches. There was no stagger nor weighted contrasts. Regardless, people I raced with showed no different speed to mine with my going right, it just felt quite different to me as a lefty thrower yet a rightie for most everything else.

So I’m an ambo and use both hands in tennis... serve left, play right, low overheads a panic decision. ;-)

#39 Perruqueporte

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 21:28

Is it three - because he was driving a steamroller?


It was actually eight wheels, and the perpetrator was later to become Brands Hatch’s Chief Marshall for many years, Ken Philips. Here’s his obituary, which I wrote for The Times:

KEN PHILLIPS
1908-2002


The first person to lap the Brands Hatch road racing circuit (on roller skates!), later to become its Chief Marshall, known to, and admired by generations of road racing motorcyclists

By Christopher Wigdor
President, Greenwich Motor & Motorcycle Club


One of motorcycle road racing’s most popular officials, Ken Phillips, died on Christmas Eve at the age of 94 following a short illness. He leaves his wife of 46 years, Joan, and countless friends who knew him as Brands Hatch’s longest-serving Chief Marshall – a post he relinquished reluctantly in 1985 when he was 77 years-old. He carried on marshalling however, and actually ran the circuit’s Wednesday and Saturday test sessions, after which he manned the paddock petrol pumps until well into his 80s. His last ‘official’ motorcycle sport engagement was at a Greenwich Club function in July, 2002 when he delighted his fellow committee members by polishing off a huge supper, after which he lit his trademark pipe and carried on dispensing sound advice on the sport he loved.

Ken’s involvement with Brands Hatch began just after the Second World War when the circuit was used for grass track racing. At that time he had resumed his pre-war career as a professional speed skater, competing in this country and further afield, and he became involved with Brands Hatch having met a handful of its marshalls, who had come along to the Purley roller skating track where he was an instructor.

It wasn’t long before Brands Hatch became the focus of Ken’s life. There was nothing he wouldn’t do to help out, and he even joined the gang of men who surfaced the circuit for road racing in the winter of 1949-50. The moment that the last of the asphalt had cooled sufficiently, Ken donned his speed skates and set off on a lap anti-clockwise (which was to be its direction for the first two road racing seasons), astonishing everyone present with his pace.

Early in his marshalling days, Ken joined the Greenwich Motor & Motorcycle Club and was invited to help run the Brands Racing Committee, for which he became Travelling Marshall and eventually Chief Marshall. He also found time to act as Chief Marshall for the British Motorcycle Racing Club at the Crystal Palace circuit. He helped found the Kent Racing Combine, which today runs the UK’s endurance road racing championship, and during his 25+ years as the Brands Hatch Chief Marshall he became one of the most familiar ‘faces’ in a sport which has produced a number of famous personalities.

“I had some really good times with Ken”, said Derek Minter, the first man to lap the Isle of Man at over 100MPH on a 500cc single-cylinder machine, and the first rider to be crowned ‘King of Brands’. “He was a very nice man, always willing, and never minded when I pulled his leg about his own riding style – even after he fell off on the startline straight at Brands Hatch one afternoon between races!”

Secretary of the Isle of Man TT Riders Association Allan Robinson knew Ken Phillips well: “As a travelling marshall Ken Phillips really was in a league of his own, and as a source of interesting stories about Brands Hatch in particular, he was without equal. We were reminiscing about the sport on one occasion, when he calmly told me that the very first fallen rider he had assisted when marshalling at Brands Hatch, was none other than Bernie Ecclestone!”

Another rider who had reason to thank Ken Phillips was John Surtees, arguably motor sport's greatest all-rounder on two- and four-wheels. He had this to say: "We live in an age where it is becoming increasingly difficult to find the enthusiasts needed to do the often thankless task of being a Marshall.

"It would almost be impossible to replace someone who had dedicated their life so much to one sport and one circuit, like Ken Phillips did.
"Ken dedicated his life to motor cycle sport and Brands Hatch after his speed skating career. He was there when my father was racing on the long established grass track. He was also there for the start of road racing on the new asphalt circuit, as I was for my first ever road race. I believe it was Ken who rushed to my aid in that first road race when I momentarily took the lead coming into the bottom at Paddock Hill, the circuit running anti-clockwise in those days. Unfortunately I parted company with my bike and was sliding along on my backside, which brought in Ken.

"Ken, like me, became a member of the Greenwich Club and despite all the traumas and changes which have surrounded Brands Hatch since those days, he was always there ready to give a hand, advise or tell a story.

"People like Ken are so important to our sport, I am sure that he would want everyone just to reflect for a few minutes how important that Marshall standing out there or on his bike is. We all too often take them for granted."

Perhaps it was fitting that towards the end of his life, Ken Phillips found himself benefiting tremendously as a patient in the specialist Falls Clinic at Queen Mary’s Hospital, Sidcup, the very hospital to whose casualty department he had often sent those riders unfortunate enough to be injured when falling off their machines at Brands Hatch. On this occasion, however, motorcycles had nothing to do with Ken’s increasing tendency to lose balance and fall over; in fact the expert team at Queen Mary’s discovered that his loss of balance was linked to his heart, a problem that was cured immediately with a pacemaker.

Ken Phillips will be missed very much by all those who knew him, none more so than his wife Joan to whom his many friends will surely wish to extend their sincere condolences.

- 0 -

Christopher W.

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#40 Nick Wa

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 23:50

I have seen a film clip of Formula III cars (the original 500cc ones) going up Paddock Hill. Most cars were struggling with the gradient.


Edited by Nick Wa, 31 August 2020 - 23:51.


#41 BRG

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 11:26

Left turns always felt more “natural” to me in kart racing..

.

That's interesting.  i was never much of a competition driver (my role was rally co-driver/navigator) but I did do some sprints at the old pre-Revival Goodwood. 

 

The only corner I could never get right was the left-hander at St Mary's and all the rest are right-handers.  The only time I got it sort-of right was by chance when driving my mate's Lotus Elan on rather old Michelin racers, I found I had a lot less grip than I expected and hence used the whole width of the road for the first time. I still did a good lap time, and he was so fired up that he went out to beat me, despite my telling him that the tyres were shot.  Sadly he rolled it. He was OK but the car wasn't and never ran again.



#42 E1pix

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 17:44

Thanks BRG, I, too find this interesting...

Do we find the “anomaly” turn harder at first? Probably, nothing’s like repetition. If picturing turning left on a dirt track all day, and then switching to clockwise, it does seem that would feel very “foreign” in the moment.

Or are these preferences a simple case of sitting to the inside of turns? Seems logical, or maybe shades of both.

What I can say is to date, when I turn a hard right from my left-side seat, it feels like I’m going “against” the right half of vehicle weight. A simple perception of body roll?

But these days, any such testing’s done in a VW bus, so body roll is only a foot or so — ;-) — and thus not likely to translate straight to F1. (LOL)

#43 BRG

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 19:10

I forgot to mention that I am right handed, for whatever that may mean.



#44 chr1s

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 19:12

I may be wrong but I thought that some motorcycle races at Montjuic were run in heats in both directions?



#45 68targa

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 19:40

Roskilde-Ring in Denmark ran anti-clockwise and held F1 races in 1961 & 62. The lap length I believe was about 0.8 of a mile so must have been quite exciting.



#46 D-Type

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 09:08

Does Roskilde-Ring qualify as the most ridiculous Formula 1 track ever, topping a car park somewhere in the middle of the desert?  :confused: