1249 replies to this topic

[masa90]

97 - Schumi was DQ'd from the championship. But granted that was exciting before that.

 

98 - No it didn't

 

Are you serious? Mika Häkkinen won the title on the final race. With just a bit of luck otherwise it would been Michael the champ. The gap was only 14pts because Ferrari had a puncture on the last race and Mika won.

[Spyker]

For 1998, it was decided in Japan, the last race of 1998. Both Hakkinen and Schmacher were in contention.

 

For 1997, Michael was disqualified as a result of his actions at the last race, where he was fighting for the championship.

 

Oh, and 1996 went down to the wire too. It might have been between teammates, but that didn't stop it from being a title fight.

My bad, you're right, it did.

 

Sure, but if we claim 96 as exciting then 2014 and '16 are too

Edited by Spyker, 30 November 2020 - 19:32.

[PayasYouRace]

My bad, you're right, it did.

 

Sure, but if we claim 96 as exciting then 2014 is too

 

I'd quite happily call any season with a final race showdown an exciting season, though I'd favour those where the drivers are of different teams.

[Enzoluis]

The engines haven’t been frozen for 5 years, not sure what you are on about.

 

Right, but when the engines were not frozen were limited the version you can use during a year. And that were the only interesting year of this era there was some battle for the championships. All the other championships winners were know at the end of februay. Now we are back again with no chance to change engines and only one chance for next year and aero changes almost blocked what makes 2021 WDC and WCC are already known. Probably they will simulate a Mercedes a and Mercedes b battle trying to sell a Lewis vs Vettel battle-

[thefinalapex]

The 2002 and 2004 seasons were way more boring than this. The title was decided before a wheel had been turned a the first race. This season has been infinitely more interesting than those two borefests, unless you're averse to Mercedes to winning, of course.

Isn’t it the same next year? We all know who will be winning both championships next year.

[Counterbalance]

Isn’t it the same next year? We all know who will be winning both championships next year.

 

Yeah, I'll concede you have a point, but at least Bottas will be given a chance to compete within his own team, something Barichello was denied. However, the outcome will be pretty much the same. So nope, I'll contend that 2002 and 2004 were the most boring seasons in recent memory.

[IrvTheSwerve]

The difference between older boring seasons and the more recent boring seasons is that we had more entertaining circuits, less car park Tilkedromes, awesome V10s to watch and hear.

 

Yeah, I know it’s all in the past now. It just made it easier to watch for me.

[Anuity]

The 2002 and 2004 seasons were way more boring than this. The title was decided before a wheel had been turned a the first race. This season has been infinitely more interesting than those two borefests, unless you're averse to Mercedes to winning, of course.

Nonsense really.

Schumacher barely won in 2003, it never looked like he was going to win it all 2004.
More or less for 2002 as well. yes they won in 2000, while bleeding to the line, and more or less comfortably in 2001, nobody imagined 2002.

These years we do imagine what will happen year after year.

Thinking about all this, Ferrari/Schumacher domination is really overrated these days. It was barely more than McLaren of late 80s, or Red Bull early 2010s. But nowhere near Mercedes.

Edited by Anuity, 30 November 2020 - 21:11.

[ForzaFormula]

Yeah, I'll concede you have a point, but at least Bottas will be given a chance to compete within his own team, something Barichello was denied. However, the outcome will be pretty much the same. So nope, I'll contend that 2002 and 2004 were the most boring seasons in recent memory.

 

Agreed, 2002, 2004, awful, allot more than this.

[Counterbalance]

Nonsense really.

Schumacher barely won in 2003, it never looked like he was going to win it all 2004.
More or less for 2002 as well. yes they won in 2000, while bleeding to the line, and more or less comfortably in 2001, nobody imagined 2002.

These years we do imagine what will happen year after year.

Thinking about all this, Ferrari/Schumacher domination is really overrated these days. It was barely more than McLaren of late 80s, or Red Bull early 2010s. But nowhere near Mercedes.

 

If by "never" you mean winning 14 out of 18 races, then yes, I have to agree with you.

 

So nope, I'd contend that 2002 and especially 2004 were way more dull to follow.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Nonsense really.

Schumacher barely won in 2003, it never looked like he was going to win it all 2004.
More or less for 2002 as well. yes they won in 2000, while bleeding to the line, and more or less comfortably in 2001, nobody imagined 2002.

These years we do imagine what will happen year after year.

Thinking about all this, Ferrari/Schumacher domination is really overrated these days. It was barely more than McLaren of late 80s, or Red Bull early 2010s. But nowhere near Mercedes.

Yep, this Mercedes domination makes the Ferrari ‘domination’ look like nothing (not what we thought at the time!)

 

2000 Schumacher only just won the championship

2001 Schumacher won 9 out of 17 races and they were spread out through the season

2002 dominant season - Schumacher on podium every race

2003 closely fought with Kimi and JPM

2004 dominant season - 13 wins

2005 rubbish season, lucky win at that USGP

2006 hard fought, losing to Alonso

 

They really weren’t a dominant force, despite being consistently near the top.

[Counterbalance]

Or was it 13 races in 2004? Might have been the latter, as I seem to think MS shares that record with Vettel.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Or was it 13 races in 2004? Might have been the latter, as I seem to think MS shares that record with Vettel.

13

[ForzaFormula]

If by "never" you mean winning 14 out of 18 races, then yes, I have to agree with you.

 

So nope, I'd contend that 2002 and especially 2004 were way more dull to follow.

 

Exactly, it was far worse then, unless of course your a fan of MS/Ferrari...explains your replies btw.

[Anuity]

If by "never" you mean winning 14 out of 18 races, then yes, I have to agree with you.

So nope, I'd contend that 2002 and especially 2004 were way more dull to follow.

Nobody in 2001 expected the dominant season we saw in 2002. Likewise after competitive 2003, few thought it would a dominant season in 2004.

Paint it as you like, but now for years everybody knows who is going to win. It was barely the case during Ferrari years really.

More importantly just because of one dominant 2004 season we saw a major shake up.
Never happened these days.

Edited by Anuity, 30 November 2020 - 21:34.

[P123]

Nonsense really.

Schumacher barely won in 2003, it never looked like he was going to win it all 2004.
More or less for 2002 as well. yes they won in 2000, while bleeding to the line, and more or less comfortably in 2001, nobody imagined 2002.

These years we do imagine what will happen year after year.

Thinking about all this, Ferrari/Schumacher domination is really overrated these days. It was barely more than McLaren of late 80s, or Red Bull early 2010s. But nowhere near Mercedes.

 

Nasty bit of 2004 revisionism there!  From the first few rounds it was very clear Ferrari/ Schumacher would win at a canter, because that is essentially exactly what he did in those races; so thrilling were they that he could open up a comfortable lead in the first half of the race (gaps which would cause lip chewing consternation and tales of woe going by this topic if repeated), protect that in the latter half, then coast over the line shedding umpteen seconds in the closing laps.  And that with limited mid-pack action too.  But yeah, we just never knew who would win out.   Even Montoya could not save 2004 from general dullness, even if he did play a part in restricting Schumacher to only 12 victories of the opening 13 rounds.  Things haven't got quite so bad since, save for the end of 2013 where everybody had given up development in anticipation of the new regulations.  Yes, seeing Hamilton win all the time will be a bit boring.  But steady on. 2004 takes some beating...

[Requiem84]

I dont understand this ‘but what about 2002 and 2004’ stuff.

These were horrible seasons too!

So horrible, Ecclestone actively started looking for ways to make F1 exciting again. So, yeah, part of the Ferrari era was also boring. SO WHAT?

[Anuity]

Exactly, it was far worse then, unless of course your a fan of MS/Ferrari...explains your replies btw.

It was never far worse back then, stop with your mantra and fooling people.

Ferrari won 6 constructors in a row but half of them in a tight fight:
1999, 2000 and 2003. And again, people were fed up with It back then, even Michael fans. As is also evident in this thread.


Mercedes has done so since 2014. It’s not comparable.

As was mentioned, I would be glad if all these Mercedes titles by Lewis were won like in 2008, or 2016. That’s the point.

Edited by Anuity, 30 November 2020 - 21:42.

[Counterbalance]

Yep, this Mercedes domination makes the Ferrari ‘domination’ look like nothing (not what we thought at the time!)

 

2000 Schumacher only just won the championship

2001 Schumacher won 9 out of 17 races and they were spread out through the season

2002 dominant season - Schumacher on podium every race

2003 closely fought with Kimi and JPM

2004 dominant season - 13 wins

2005 rubbish season, lucky win at that USGP

2006 hard fought, losing to Alonso

 

They really weren’t a dominant force, despite being consistently near the top.

 

And despite their constant uphill battle against the odds, Ferrari managed to secure 6 consecutive constructors and 5 consecutive drivers titles. A record that has stood for 16 years until Mercedes took both titles in 2020.

 

What made the seasons I'm contending as most boring, is the fact that Schumacher was unchallenged within his own team from day one, a fact widely accepted.

 

At least some competition, however limited (Bottas) is way better than no competition (Barichello).

[Anuity]

And despite their constant uphill battle against the odds, Ferrari managed to secure 6 consecutive constructors and 5 consecutive drivers titles. A record that has stood for 16 years until Mercedes took both titles in 2020.

What made the seasons I'm contending as most boring, is the fact that Schumacher was unchallenged within his own team from day one, a fact widely accepted.

At least some competition, however limited (Bottas) is way better than no competition (Barichello).

Greek mythology at its best.
It took Ferrari/Schumacher 1996,1997,1998,1999 and then finally a well deserved win in 2000. Followed by one semi dominant season in 2001 and a dominant one in 2002.
Then thrown back in 2003 and winning only one more in 2004 before fading Away.

Edited by Anuity, 30 November 2020 - 21:45.

[Requiem84]

Ore importantly, we all agree that 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 were more exciting title challenges than we have had since 2013.

So in the 00’s we had 7 out of 10 seasons with a proper championship fight between different teams. The last real exciting Championship season I recall was 2012 or maybe 2016.

[Counterbalance]

It was never far worse back then, stop with your mantra and fooling people.

Ferrari won 6 constructors in a row but half of them in a tight fight:
1999, 2000 and 2003. And again, people were fed up with It back then, even Michael fans. As is also evident in this thread.


Mercedes has done so since 2014. It’s not comparable.

As was mentioned, I would be glad if all these Mercedes titles by Lewis were won like in 2008, or 2016. That’s the point.

 

Ferrari and Vettel put up a fairly decent title challenge until Singapore '17, and Hockenheim '18 when Vettel crumbled.

[Requiem84]

Ferrari and Vettel put up a fairly decent title challenge until Singapore '17, and Hockenheim '18 when Vettel crumbled.

And at what part in the season was Hockenheim...

[P123]

Greek mythology at its best.
It took Ferrari/Schumacher 1996,1997,1998,1999 and then finally a well deserved win in 2000. Followed by one semi dominant season in 2001 and a dominant one in 2002.
Then thrown back in 2003 and winning only one more in 2004 before fading Away.

 

It was a long period of having the best car, with a No.1 driver policy.  Obviously with varying degrees of dominance and either close or not so close driver championship fights.  It was a tyre war, so Michelin victories tended to be shared out among their leading teams, which also had close intra-team battles.  When it was Bridgestone's turn to win, it was Schumacher, which helped him to 3x the victories of the next best even in a 'close' season like 2003.

[Counterbalance]

And at what part in the season was Hockenheim...

 

Round 11, according to F1's website. For what it's worth, I don't think Vettel has ever truly recovered from that. But that's another topic altogether.

[Requiem84]

And Again - people were extremely fed up with the Schumacher dominance already back then.

[Requiem84]

Round 11, according to F1's website. For what it's worth, I don't think Vettel has ever truly recovered from that. But that's another topic altogether.

Exactly. In a 21 race season. I don’t think we can call that a title fight when its decide half way, can we?

Edited by Requiem84, 30 November 2020 - 21:54.

[P123]

And at what part in the season was Hockenheim...

 

2017 and 2018 aren't F1's problem to fix though.  What you saw there was a thing called sporting competition.  True, it sucks if the 'good season' mentality relies on a points list.

[Requiem84]

2017 and 2018 aren't F1's problem to fix though. What you saw there was a thing called sporting competition. True, it sucks if the 'good season' mentality relies on a points list.

Quite simply, in every era, we need some years where drivers from two teams fight until deep into the season.

The last time we had that was 2012 (!).

[Counterbalance]

Quite simply, in every era, we need some years where drivers from two teams fight until deep into the season.

The last time we had that was 2012 (!).

 

Fair point. But please, please, please don't get me started on how smug Horner was during 2010 - 2013.

[P123]

Quite simply, in every era, we need some years where drivers from two teams fight until deep into the season.

The last time we had that was 2012 (!).

 

You had that in 2017.  But I'd generally agree.  If only RB would start a season with a sorted car, and if only Ferrari hadn't doped.

[thefinalapex]

Quite simply, in every era, we need some years where drivers from two teams fight until deep into the season.

The last time we had that was 2012 (!).

It seems that some people can’t read or just don’t understand you as you’re point is well argumented and clear . I fail to see the logic of saying f1 was worse in 2002 and 2004 because nobody is saying that F1 should be like that.

[rf90]

On this UK forum, any posts in any thread that contain even a hint of criticism of the Merc domination, are met with all sorts of spin because they are seen as criticism of a driver.

[Counterbalance]

It seems that some people can’t read or just don’t understand you as you’re point is well argumented and clear . I fail to see the logic of saying f1 was worse in 2002 and 2004 because nobody is saying that F1 should be like that.

 

As P123 said 2017 was pretty good until Singapore, and 2018 was shaping up until the German GP. And I'm just redressing the original question by way of comparison, that's all. Not that I'm disagreeing with your sentiment though, to be clear.

[thefinalapex]

As P123 said 2017 was pretty good until Singapore, and 2018 was shaping up until the German GP. And I'm just redressing the original question by way of comparison, that's all. Not that I'm disagreeing with your sentiment though, to be clear.

Yep 2017 and 2018 promised so much but it went out like a wet fart both times. If it would have been tight till lets say 2/3 races before the end that would have been nice. But hey i blame Ferrar/Vettel for that one.

[noriaki]

It was a long period of having the best car, with a No.1 driver policy.

It was a period of 5 years where Barrichello got the #2 treatment only when he was outside of the championship fight. Austria 2002 always gets brought up here but Rubens had scored 6 points in the five races before. Six. He was out of contention.

Mercedes is also gonna have a clear #2 driver when one driver is out of the championship fight and the other is still in it. See Sochi 2018.

I don't see the huge difference.

[CountDooku]

You can'te be a football fan then. Most fans loathe that the big leagues are dominated by a few clubs, or in some cases even just one (Looking at you, Bayern and PSG).

I’m a massive football fan and don’t care much about other teams but my own. I watch whether they win the league or not.

[Anuity]

It was a long period of having the best car, with a No.1 driver policy.  Obviously with varying degrees of dominance and either close or not so close driver championship fights.  It was a tyre war, so Michelin victories tended to be shared out among their leading teams, which also had close intra-team battles.  When it was Bridgestone's turn to win, it was Schumacher, which helped him to 3x the victories of the next best even in a 'close' season like 2003.

 

It was not really.

It looks so only if you look at the statistical record:

 

1999 - Hakkinen won, the right man. Ferrari managed to win the constructors

2000 - Extremely tight battle for the title, could go either way. I am biased, but still think it's the best winning title in 20 years.

2001 - kind of like 2017/2018. Mclaren started off very well. The problem is that Hakkinen switched off. But even Coulthard was able to keep it even up until Montreal (?)

2002- Ok, pure dominance, boring.

2003 - weird season, but there was a battle all the way

2004 - dominance

2005 - failure

2006 - back on track.

 

 

It's simply not true to paint it in the way that Schumacher completely dominated those years. Facts don't lie. Yes, two dominant years, but that's all.

 

We are now on track:

 

2017: no fight

2018: no fight

2019: no fight

2020: no fight

 

And very likely 2021: no fight,

 

It has never happened in f1 during the modern age. 

 

I have no problem with Lewis winning it, all I want is some real fight. It will never happen though.

Edited by Anuity, 30 November 2020 - 23:24.

[CountDooku]

Ore importantly, we all agree that 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 were more exciting title challenges than we have had since 2013.

So in the 00’s we had 7 out of 10 seasons with a proper championship fight between different teams. The last real exciting Championship season I recall was 2012 or maybe 2016.

🚨agenda alert! 🚨

Since 2014 we have had 4 years with tense title battles (2014, 16, 17 and 18) and 3 years of domination (2015, 2019 and 2020). Of those, 2019 was pretty fun as we always had battles for the lead, even though the points table tells a different story.

[Atreiu]

I have never seen F1 numbers and stats so grossly manipulated to the detriment of actual events and battles as Spyker did above.

[Anuity]

Nasty bit of 2004 revisionism there!  From the first few rounds it was very clear Ferrari/ Schumacher would win at a canter, because that is essentially exactly what he did in those races; so thrilling were they that he could open up a comfortable lead in the first half of the race (gaps which would cause lip chewing consternation and tales of woe going by this topic if repeated), protect that in the latter half, then coast over the line shedding umpteen seconds in the closing laps.  And that with limited mid-pack action too.  But yeah, we just never knew who would win out.   Even Montoya could not save 2004 from general dullness, even if he did play a part in restricting Schumacher to only 12 victories of the opening 13 rounds.  Things haven't got quite so bad since, save for the end of 2013 where everybody had given up development in anticipation of the new regulations.  Yes, seeing Hamilton win all the time will be a bit boring.  But steady on. 2004 takes some beating...

 

 

Maybe you should re-read before making comments like this.

What I said is that few expected the level of dominance Michael/ Ferrari demonstrated in 2004 based on their 2003 performance.

 

The major point, expressed by various people in this thread remains the same: it has never been as bad as it's now.

[PlayboyRacer]

The big cock up was freezing an entirely brand new engine formula when the hybrid era began.

Not allowing teams to test and develop means its almost impossible to claw back into the race. The battles for the title in 1990, 91, 97, 98 for example, would never have taken place with frozen regulations.

Nailed it.

[pingu666]

i think you can interesting races or interesting parts of races, but a dull championship, or a championship thats "interesting" but dull races.

 

but i think "realness" is important, so i dislike reality tv engineered/forced drama. i think some of the older years where more dull, but the meta is different now, and im watching highlights vs live and "full" coverage.

[Dhillon]

The worst part of this season is that it will same of this next season.

[fisssssi]

Exactly. A few years of dominance is acceptable. Ferrari and Red Bull had their eras.

 

But 7 years of Mercedes dominance, going on 8 years, it's just too much. Heaven forbid they dominate the next era too.

 

Did anyone even notice Lewis won the race on Sunday? My brain has stopped processing his victories. When I look at the podium I just see second and third place. It's tragic.

[Requiem84]

🚨agenda alert! 🚨

Since 2014 we have had 4 years with tense title battles (2014, 16, 17 and 18) and 3 years of domination (2015, 2019 and 2020). Of those, 2019 was pretty fun as we always had battles for the lead, even though the points table tells a different story.

Did you miss the two key words: DIFFERENT TEAMS?

I think your constant attempts to frame other posters is pretty disingenuous and unrespectful, CountDooku.

Edited by Requiem84, 01 December 2020 - 06:49.

[Spyker]

I have never seen F1 numbers and stats so grossly manipulated to the detriment of actual events and battles as Spyker did above.

Them's the facts no manipulation.

 

Pulled from an api, and calculated.

[CountDooku]

Did you miss the two key words: DIFFERENT TEAMS?

I think your constant attempts to frame other posters is pretty disingenuous and unrespectful, CountDooku.

So a season is only exciting if there’s a battle between different teams? Poor Senna and Prost.

[shure]

The big cock up was freezing an entirely brand new engine formula when the hybrid era began.

 

Not allowing teams to test and develop means its almost impossible to claw back into the race. The battles for the title in 1990, 91, 97, 98 for example, would never have taken place with frozen regulations.

 

The extremely narrow development window does nothing to help the situation.

yeah I've been saying this for ages.  The hybrid regulations effectively locked in the Merc dominance from the start

[PayasYouRace]

Right, I think we’ve all had enough of this “my dad is more boring than your dad” argument. Nothing of value is being discussed anymore and personal attacks are not welcome.

Thread closed.