33 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

When was the last time that a front-engined "slingshot" Top Fuel dragster competed in a NHRA event? The last victory for a slingshot in NHRA competition was Art Marshall's victory at the Le GrandNational event at the Sanair Super Speedway near Montreal on the 6th of August 1972 - I presume a couple of slingshots competed without success in 1973?

[Michael Ferner]

Weren't they outlawed?

[Bloggsworth]

What's a slingshot?

[Rupertlt1]

James Warren was entered at Madison Raceway Park, Pension Road, Englishtown, N.J., in a front-engined Top Fuel dragster.

The event was the NHRA Summernationals, July 1974.

The car featured a Donovan Top Fuel motor.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 31 August 2020 - 13:34.

[Michael Ferner]

Mention of Donovan makes me realize I don't know nothing about drag racing engines, what do/did they use at the top end of the category? Donovan in my neck of the woods means an alloy block SBC or even BBC, is that also drag racing standard?

[Rupertlt1]

The Donovan Top Fuel motor was based on the 392 cubic inch Chrysler, with alloy block and enlarged to 417 cubes.

It was the last gasp for this type of motor as the 426 Chrysler/Dodge hemi took over.

 

RGDS RLT

[Michael Ferner]

So, hemis are top of the line in drag racing? Is that a free formula, or are there restrictions?

[10kDA]

What's a slingshot?

Top Fueler aka Rail aka Digger

 

Plus God knows how many other hip synonyms

Edited by 10kDA, 31 August 2020 - 16:04.

[Sisyphus]

So, hemis are top of the line in drag racing? Is that a free formula, or are there restrictions?

You can find the NHRA rule book on line.  Basically, top fuel engines are 500 CID max, must be 90 degree V-8 made from forged aluminum only (no cast blocks allowed).  They must use a Roots type blower only (no turbo's or centrifugal superchargers) with some size limitations and the air intake can be 65 square inches max.  Funny cars (ie the top fuel class that run bodies that vaguely resembled stock cars with a much shorter wheelbase than top fuel cars) are the same, I believe.  Max horsepower is quoted as between 8000 and 11000 hp.  Weight is 2340 lbs min with driver at end of a run.

[Bob Riebe]

For decades Top Fuel was a pretty open class, as with other types of racing since the 90s especially it has had more and more exclusionary specifications.

 

As like NASCAR finding information online about other sanctions than NHRA is a pain in the buttocks, where the last Sling Shot ran in non-nostalgia racing is hard to find.

 

The AHRA was the NHRA's main competitor for many years with top drivers running in both.

Arias produced/es a Chevy big-block based Hemi but it never caught on big.

There have been OHC Hemis , Ford 427 but it was replaced by the Boss 429 and when Ford abandoned racing faded away.(Australia had or has a OHC Top Fuel engines, Sainty and McGee, ) Gary Beck won with the McGee

The Arias has been successful in AA Top Alcohol class.

 

The very restricted Sling Shot rails are now running in the Fives in nostalgia racing.

At the same time AA/Alcohol now run 5.1 at over 280 mph.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 01 September 2020 - 01:36.

[Rupertlt1]

1971 IHRA  All-American Nationals, Bristol, Tennessee,

Ronnie Martin, Top Fuel, 6.72 secs, 215.82 mph.  This was the end of the front-engined era in Top Fuel:

 

IHRA'S FINAL UP-FRONT WINNER

The IHRA's last front-motor winner was Ronnie Martin, who drove Robert Anderson's front motored dragster to two IHRA titles (the most that year for IHRA), with the last one coming at the organization's All-American Nationals at Bristol International Dragway on August 27-29, 1971.  He defeated the rear-motor dragster of Arnie Behling in 6.72 to 6.83 final.

Published in "The Top Fuel Handbook" by Chris Martin.

(I was at this race.)

 

1970 NHRA World Champion - Reigning Top Fuel world champ Ronnie Martin popped a huge wheelie in round one of the 1971 Indy Nationals race and lost the bout to Roger Rowe, the 1970 Top Gas runner-up.

 

RGDS RLT

[racinggeek]

Rupertlt, I find it curious that James Warren would have entered a slingshot at Englishtown or anywhere in 1974 because his team was running a mid-engined fueler before then. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I have nothing to dispute it. "Kansas John" Wiebe raced the last really competitive front-engined TF, finally giving in and getting a mid-engined job in early 1973 (and winning the NHRA Springnationals in Columbus, Ohio almost right out of the box), but I don't know and would rather doubt Wiebe was the last racer to run a TF slingshot in a national event.

 

I don't think slingshot Top Fuel dragsters were ever outlawed, at least not back in the 1970s; it's just that the mid-engined dragster finally proved to be quicker, easier to drive and safer by somewhere around 1972 or '73, after earlier handling problems were sorted. 

 

Rupertlt is correct about the Donovan motor. Essentially, the Chrysler V-8 blocks were becoming more difficult to scavenge and increasingly prone to catastrophic breakages as horsepower was rising in the late 1960s and early '70s, so Ed Donovan designed and built his own version, increasing the cubes from 392 to 417 and strengthening the block in weak breakage-prone areas. That motor came out in 1971, IIRC, with the aforementioned Wiebe being the first to race with it. Within a couple of years, Keith Black would design his own version of the 426 Hemi for Top Fuel and Funny Car use that eclipsed the Donovan, at least in part because the KB was quite a bit lighter than the Donovan.

 

Also, a handful of teams built fuel motors from big-block Chevies. Besides Arias as Mr. Riebe noted above, Rodeck also created a fuel motor based on the Chevy,.

 

Also as Mr. Riebe noted, engine regulations for Top Fuel (and Funny Car, which I believe were the same) were pretty liberal at the time. Several teams did look at turbocharged instead of supercharged engines, at least in the Funny Car ranks -- off the top of my head, Gene Snow around '71 or '72, and Jerry Verheul's Pacemaker team around '80-81 -- and Don Garlits attempted to make a turbine Top Fueler work in the early '80s.

[Rupertlt1]

Yes, I was puzzled ref James Warren - a newspaper said he was from Gainesville, Florida (not the Ridge Route Terror, from Bakersfield, California) - I've since found a second ref for James Warren, Gainesville, FLA, in Top Fuel 

Warren entered at IHRA All-American Nationals at Bristol International Dragway on September 27-29, 1974.

 

Update: I remembered Hot Rod featured the Donovan Hemi and sure enough, here it is:

 

https://www.jalopyjo...rother.1086242/

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 01 September 2020 - 00:13.

[AJB]

What's a slingshot?

In case you hadn't figured it out from the photo, it's a dragster where the driver sits BEHIND the rear axle line.

[john aston]

Nothing useful to add, other than to say how pleasant it is to see this much overlooked branch of the sport being given some expert attenetion. I saw my first Top Fueller in 1973 and have been addicted ever since. One of the reasons I need to use the subtitles on TV more ...

[Michael Ferner]

How do you forge an engine block? I realize that drag racing engines probably don't need extensive cooling ducts, but is it feasible to machine a forged block into a working engine?? I guess it'd work wonders in stresses versus a cast block, but that just sounds... weird!

[Allan Lupton]

How do you forge an engine block?
 

Perhaps it's "forge" in the sense of counterfeit . . .

[Lee Nicolle]

So, hemis are top of the line in drag racing? Is that a free formula, or are there restrictions?

Engines are free. As for Chrysler? There would not be one Mopar part in a modern TF engine.  Just the very basic design.Probably since the late 70s. Though a few used BB Chevs and Fords as well.

Here in Oz Terry Sainty use there own design OHC engine. Competitive but not a winner. Budget would be part of that

[Lee Nicolle]

How do you forge an engine block? I realize that drag racing engines probably don't need extensive cooling ducts, but is it feasible to machine a forged block into a working engine?? I guess it'd work wonders in stresses versus a cast block, but that just sounds... weird!

Billet blocks I guess can be forged. Need a bloody big die though to pound that big a piece of alloy.

These days everyone talks forged this forged that. The internals are forged and the blocks machined from a large lump of suitable grade alloy.

And yes there is cast alloy race blocks around. Though not in Top Fuel to my knowledge.

Though for evolution look at Don Garlits museum which has many videos on You Tube. Sidevalves to alloy hemis!

[Bob Riebe]

As big, at least publicity wise, as drag racing is in the U.S., NHRA  was the mafia to it that NASCAR was to stock car racing.

Online information beyond NHRA, and to a much lessor degree, IHRA is time consuming to find to non-existant.

There used to be a lot more small sanctions and simple match racing used to be the mode that paid most racers bills, not sanctioned meets.

 

The BS vehicles that Pro Stock is now has been mentioned often in articles from online or print drag racing rags; ditto for Funny Cars.

[Rupertlt1]

Dennis Priddle made the most of an ex-California front-engined digger in dear old Blighty:

 

http://www.trakbytes.co.uk/vech5.html

 

Norm Wilcox from Redondo Beach, CA (sometime associated with Ted Gotelli).

 

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 02 September 2020 - 00:42.

[Graham Clayton]

Dennis Priddle made the most of an ex-California front-engined digger in dear old Blighty:

 

http://www.trakbytes.co.uk/vech5.html

 

Norm Wilcox from Redondo Beach, CA (sometime associated with Ted Gotelli).

 

RGDS RLT 
 

 

Interesting article - was 1978 the last time that a slingshot competed in a competition event anywhere in the world?

Edited by Graham Clayton, 02 September 2020 - 09:22.

[Lee Nicolle]

Slingshots still racing. 'Historic' series in the US and many other countries.

At a NHRA Top Fuel event maybe.

I have seen Garlits say that once he started winning in his rear engine car that everyone had gone rear engine in 6 months. Big names maybe but by far from all.

Remember in those days  in excess of 50 cars turned up. Now it is half,, an here in Oz as few as 6.

[10kDA]

NHRA currently runs Heritage and Nostalgia series (is that a copyright/trademark/intellectual property lawsuit I smell?) which, though they may not be their premier championship series, are still "real" racing series, not simply exhibition runs. The rules for this event scheduled August 2020 in Bowling Green KY specifically mention front-engine dragsters and differentiate dragsters from center-steer altereds etc.

 

https://nhramuseum.o...s-NHRR-2020.pdf

 

Plenty of pics here - not clear if the races shown were NHRA sanctioned, but front-engine rails are certainly still racing:

 

http://frontenginedr...org/photos1.htm

[john aston]

I spent rather too long during lockdown getting a daily fix from SEGA on YouTube. Not the hedgehog, but South |East Gassers, where it is forever 1967. Big block thunder? Check. Wheelies ? You got it . Hot girls (and some rather more lukewarm ) in mini skirts? Yup. Enjoyable ? Hell yeah 

[Obster]

If there was ever anything that could be considered TOO exciting, Top Fuel slingshot dragsters were it.

Not only the engine on top of you, but the rear wheels right next to you.

In the late 60's NHRA had similar popularity to NASCAR today.

No way could you keep up with all the monthly drag racing magazines.

But it was fun to try...

[wolf sun]

Interesting article - was 1978 the last time that a slingshot competed in a competition event anywhere in the world?

 

Apparently not. Have a look at this:

 

https://youtu.be/BktbgiFucHo

 

Hanau, Germany in 1984. I was there.

[Lee Nicolle]

I spent rather too long during lockdown getting a daily fix from SEGA on YouTube. Not the hedgehog, but South |East Gassers, where it is forever 1967. Big block thunder? Check. Wheelies ? You got it . Hot girls (and some rather more lukewarm ) in mini skirts? Yup. Enjoyable ? Hell yeah 

Good to watch, some very quick old tech cars but some of those cars are at best dangerous.

3 and 4 point Harness's over the drivers shoulders down to the floor behind them, seats very dodgey in mountings. Or bench seats!!.

I dont know whose sanctioning body and insurance they have but if someone crashes they will be hurt.

The older I get the more I understand basic safety.

And in these cases it really does not cost much, if any more to do properly. Harness bar on the cage,, or between the B Pillars with no cage and the usual plates etc under and over the floor mounts on seats.

[Lee Nicolle]

For those in lockdown and bored there is a series on You Tube 'The Surfers' with one of the team that built the car. Over 40 10-15 min episodes.

That and Garlits with his now deceased wife.

Interesting to me and I really am not interested in Drag Racing.

But beats the sh*t out of the crap on TV. With dumb talent programs and cooking shows. Best last night was Morse,, and that was at least 30 years old!!

[Bob Riebe]

Apparently not. Have a look at this:

 

https://youtu.be/BktbgiFucHo

Hanau, Germany in 1984. I was there.

Sweet, very very sweet.

The viewing area reminds me of Donnybrooke the first year; back when men were men and women loved it while racers were not panty waist rich boys..

Bracket racing has always annoyed me because if you are too quick you lose but the variety is fantastic.

LOVE the Citroen .2CV.

[ray b]

I donot think the front / rear engine thing is valid

 

as the motor stayed in about the same place if anything a little more to the front in a ''rear'' engine dragster

to allow the more elaborate clutch pack set ups to limit wheel spin

the driver moved from behind the motor to in front of the motor mostly to get out of the way of the exploding bits and fireballs

[Bob Riebe]

The wing/lets on the current nostalgia slingshots has made a huge difference which is one reason they are in fives with restricted regulations.

[john aston]

Good to watch, some very quick old tech cars but some of those cars are at best dangerous.

3 and 4 point Harness's over the drivers shoulders down to the floor behind them, seats very dodgey in mountings. Or bench seats!!.

I dont know whose sanctioning body and insurance they have but if someone crashes they will be hurt.

The older I get the more I understand basic safety.

And in these cases it really does not cost much, if any more to do properly. Harness bar on the cage,, or between the B Pillars with no cage and the usual plates etc under and over the floor mounts on seats.

Whatever- I doubt if the good ol' boys down  at the Shadyside Dragway lose much sleep about safety. It's only an eighth mile and the Deliverance spec beards sported by many of the competitors would act as organic airbags I reckon. They crash a lot and I have yet to see any injury other than trauma to the bank balance.Thir outlaw branding suggests not a very close relationship with The Man and as for insurance - ain't that some pantywaist democrat thang ?

[racinggeek]

This isn't Top Fuel, but in regard to how long slingshots remained competitive in NHRA racing, worth noting that Dale Hall won two NHRA national events in 1979 with his front-motor rail in the Pro Comp class. That was a "sportsman" class but it largely consisted of TF-style dragster and Funny Cars using alcohol instead of nitro (or injected instead of supercharged if they did use nitro). The top cars generally were within a half second to a second of the TFs and the class was the last step before moving into the fuel ranks for Joe Amato, Frank Hawley, Dale Armstrong and other notable pro racers, so it's not like they were just schlepping around in Pro Comp.

And going back to the motor discussion, Hall was running a more or less homebuilt small-block Chevy.