205 replies to this topic

[JeePee]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

[dissident]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

 

Hamilton lifted, like he did to Vettel in 2017.

[JeePee]

Hamilton lifted, like he did to Vettel in 2017.

So?

 

Bottas also lifted. Even more. But look how Max is right under his rear wing coming up Raidillon.

[AustinF1]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

He's an excellent wingman.

[dissident]

So?

 

Bottas also lifted. Even more. But look how Max is right under his rear wing coming up Raidillon.

 

He didn't back down, he got out-foxed.

 

Hamilton has pulled that move before, he should have anticipated it.

[sennamaster]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

 

Hamilton did it to Vettel 2x in the race in 2017. He lifts just a tad before approaching Eau rouge so the following car has to move a bit to the side and no longer get the benefit of the slip stream which in turn puts them at the mercy of the car behind them.

Edited by sennamaster, 31 August 2020 - 09:12.

[JeePee]

Hamilton did it to Vettel 2x in the race in 2017. He lifts just a tad before approaching Eau rouge so the following car has to move a bit to the side and no longer get the benefit of the slip stream which in turn puts them at the mercy of the car behind them.

Vettel got alongside. Twice.

 

Bottas couldn't even get near his rear wing.

[P123]

Vettel got alongside. Twice.

 

Bottas couldn't even get near his rear wing.

It's not like Max got a run on Bottas either.  I'm sure their respective right feet were planted as hard as possible, but a driver can't invent a tow.

[JeePee]

It's not like Max got a run on Bottas either.  I'm sure their respective right feet were planted as hard as possible, but a driver can't invent a tow.

Max did get a run on Bottas, but because Lewis moved to the right, Bottas had a slipstream and Max didn't.

[Requiem84]

It's not like Max got a run on Bottas either.  I'm sure their respective right feet were planted as hard as possible, but a driver can't invent a tow.

 

That's pretty silly, because Bottas had a slipstream of Hamilton (who was pretty smart in staying in the middle, so that Bottas would have his slipstream while Max was punching a whole in the air by himself.

[JHSingo]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

 

He knows his future is safe, so it doesn't matter how many opportunities he bottles. You could really see this coming as soon as Mercedes renewed him after the first race. I very much doubt he'll win another race this season now. Complete waste of that Mercedes drive.

Edited by JHSingo, 31 August 2020 - 11:54.

[sennamaster]

He knows his future is safe, so it doesn't matter how many opportunities he bottles. You could really see this coming as soon as Mercedes renewed him after the first race. I very much doubt he'll win another race this season now. Complete waste of that Mercedes waste.

 

I think there was not much more he could have done, here is an onbaord from the Mercedes thread 

 

https://streamable.com/4mn502

 

If you notice Hamilton lifts a bit just before the climb up to Eau Rouge which means Bottas has to back out a bit as well. This gives Lewis the run up the hill and denies Bottas the slipstream, even with that Bottas still manages to claw back some time on the straight.

 

Hamilton had to deny him that slipstream up the hill and the first few meters after Radillion by lifting to ensure he backs out. Nothing he could have done.

 

Lewis did the same to Vettel in 2017 or so 

[MasterOfCoin]

The reason this season is so boring is 50% Bottas fault. We could have had a race yesterday...

 

 

How in the whole wide world, can you NOT overtake Hamilton when you are THIS far behind in the run down to Eau Rouge.

 

Unbelievable. Really. I have never seen such a poor performance. Such a poor form of 'racing instinct'. This completely destroyed the race. Same happened in Silverstone 1. He backed out in turn 1 while he was alongside on the inside.

 

Completely useless driver.

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

Are you serious, the same would have happened to anyone else in the 2nd Merc, he just got out foxed.......People actually believe if Max was in the other car, Merc will let them race? when they aren't even allowed certain engine modes to fight in races..... laughable....

 

Also "Completely useless driver"......must be code for why didn't Bottas crash in Lewis he so useless.....

Edited by MasterOfCoin, 31 August 2020 - 12:07.

[Requiem84]

Are you serious, the same would have happened to anyone else in the 2nd Merc, he just got out foxed.......People actually believe if Max was in the other car, Merc will let them race? when they aren't even allowed certain engine modes to fight in races..... laughable....

 

Also "Completely useless driver"......must be code for why didn't Bottas crash in Lewis he so useless.....

 

He's the perfect #2, but he's useless as a driver to push Hamilton.

 

However, pushing Hamilton isn't what Mercedes is looking for. The fans are looking for it though. But the interests of the fans and Mercedes itself are not aligned.

[Marklar]

Bottas couldnt do anything there. the way Hamilton placed the car and lifted meant he either lifts or crashes.

Of course it does say something that Hamilton trusts him enough to do it as extreme as there.

[Requiem84]

Bottas couldnt do anything there. the way Hamilton placed the car and lifted meant he either lifts or crashes.

Of course it does say something that Hamilton trusts him enough to do it as extreme as there.

 

Bottas backed of a bit too much and was just a touch hesistant to get back on the power. Smart move by Hamilton. The good thing about Bottas is that he didn't even complain about this move. If it would have been someone like Ricciard, Vettel or Verstappen in the second Mercedes car, it would have sparked a lot of strong language on the radio . 

 

Exactly the reason they like Bottas in that car. 

 

Had Hamilton just floored it all the way to the end of the Kemmel straight, Bottas would have passed him (and Verstappen perhaps too). 

[Ivanhoe]

Bottas couldnt do anything there. the way Hamilton placed the car and lifted meant he either lifts or crashes.

Of course it does say something that Hamilton trusts him enough to do it as extreme as there.

Yeah, with those levels of df, lifting almost works like a brake test.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 31 August 2020 - 12:23.

[Pimpwerx]

I think there was not much more he could have done, here is an onbaord from the Mercedes thread 

 

https://streamable.com/4mn502

 

If you notice Hamilton lifts a bit just before the climb up to Eau Rouge which means Bottas has to back out a bit as well. This gives Lewis the run up the hill and denies Bottas the slipstream, even with that Bottas still manages to claw back some time on the straight.

 

Hamilton had to deny him that slipstream up the hill and the first few meters after Radillion by lifting to ensure he backs out. Nothing he could have done.

 

Lewis did the same to Vettel in 2017 or so 

This. Lewis has done this before at Spa. I believe Seb commented on it after that race as well. I'm not even sure Lewis is the originator of this trick. There just aren't that many opportunities to use it, as Eau Rouge-Raidillon is the reason it works. You can get a good run out of La Source, but if you can't pull alongside before Eau Rouge, you have to blip the throttle to stay tucked in through the kink, and try to regain that momentum climbing a hill on Kemmel. It's actually better to have a bigger gap heading into that turn, so you're maximized the tow after you've crested the hill.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 31 August 2020 - 12:29.

[thiscocks]

Is there any footage showing Hamilton lifting down to Radillon? If he did lift that is pretty unsportsman like driving. Guess he knows he can get away with it with the perfect follow the leader #2 Bottas. 

[MasterOfCoin]

Is there any footage showing Hamilton lifting down to Radillon? If he did lift that is pretty unsportsman like driving. Guess he knows he can get away with it with the perfect follow the leader #2 Bottas.

LOL....

[PlayboyRacer]

I find it funny that anyone would still expect Bottas to get ruthless and uncompromising with Hamilton.

That ship sailed a long time ago.

[ARTGP]

Is anybody surprised? Bottas has never had the racecraft of some of his peers.....

[ARTGP]

 

And he has a contract for 2021.

 

 

Because he's Hamilton's wingman. A perfect one....That's why he has the contract. Mercedes don't have an interest a teammate war. 

[TheMidnight]

Is there any footage showing Hamilton lifting down to Radillon? If he did lift that is pretty unsportsman like driving. Guess he knows he can get away with it with the perfect follow the leader #2 Bottas.

LOL jog on.... Defending is unsporting? Nice try.

[fed up]

It's not like Max got a run on Bottas either.  I'm sure their respective right feet were planted as hard as possible, but a driver can't invent a tow.

 

This.

 

Everyone is blaming Bottas for not getting by, but what about Max and Ricciardo? 

[PayasYouRace]

It's an interesting bit of racecraft from Hamilton. After the way the run up to Les Combes has been in recent years, I'd imagine any driver getting out of La Source first would want to deny his opponents the chance to get a slipstream up the hill. Not sure what some people expect Bottas to have done? Like at Silverstone, it was either lift or crash into the back of your teammate.

[JeePee]

Bottas couldnt do anything there. the way Hamilton placed the car and lifted meant he either lifts or crashes.

Of course it does say something that Hamilton trusts him enough to do it as extreme as there.

There is lifting, and there is lifting for so long you lose all the chance you had.

 

The Vettel ones in 2017 are very different. There Hamilton made sure Vettel got along side too early, which meant they both didn't have a slipstream and thus could keep the lead.

In the last race Bottas was nowhere near getting along side.

[Requiem84]

This.

Everyone is blaming Bottas for not getting by, but what about Max and Ricciardo?

Could you tell us the tows on the Kemmel straight?

There is your answer.

[Ivanhoe]

LOL....

Well to be fair it's not really a nice move to lift on a full throttle part of the track, as I said with these cars lifting almost works like a brake test. Don't really understand why people are actually praising Lewis for it.

[Marklar]

This.

Everyone is blaming Bottas for not getting by, but what about Max and Ricciardo?

Ricciardo especially. Low DF, soft tyres, a car that is a rocket on the straights, three cars ahead, two of them on rain set-up and compromised due to lifting.

Good thing that his name is not Bottas

Edited by Marklar, 31 August 2020 - 13:34.

[P123]

Is there any footage showing Hamilton lifting down to Radillon? If he did lift that is pretty unsportsman like driving. Guess he knows he can get away with it with the perfect follow the leader #2 Bottas. 

I think it's more of an assumption.  Largely based on the erroneous belief he did that previously to Vettel, whereas all he did there was not to go full throttle through Eau Rouge thereby denying Vettel a run and tow over the crest of the hill by keeping him stuck to his gearbox, and then planting it.

 

For this it's clear Bottas got a better run out of La Source, probably too close on the run down to Eau Rouge and Hamilton blocked his line meaning he had to lift on entry to Eau Rouge, which therefore compromised him.

[Ivanhoe]

This.

 

Everyone is blaming Bottas for not getting by, but what about Max and Ricciardo? 

Bottas had the advantage of Lewis' slipstream while Max was punching a hole in the air

[JeePee]

This.

 

Everyone is blaming Bottas for not getting by, but what about Max and Ricciardo? 

Max got next to Bottas and Ricciardo got next to Max. But because Bottas failed to get along side Lewis, Max had to punch his own hole in the air on the Kemmel straight.

[PayasYouRace]

If this has caused such a spark of conversation here I can't want for the Bahrain Outer circuit.

[thiscocks]

LOL jog on.... Defending is unsporting? Nice try.

Lifting off in the middle of a straight is yes.

 

Anyway looking at the vid I dont think its conclusive Hamilton lifted. Bottas has overspeed on him and just started to close at a higher rate when getting further into Hamiltons slip stream. We need to see telemetry from Hamiltons car before we can say he lifted. I don't think he would do that personally. 

[Massa]

Bottas backed of a bit too much and was just a touch hesistant to get back on the power. Smart move by Hamilton. The good thing about Bottas is that he didn't even complain about this move. If it would have been someone like Ricciard, Vettel or Verstappen in the second Mercedes car, it would have sparked a lot of strong language on the radio .

Exactly the reason they like Bottas in that car.

Had Hamilton just floored it all the way to the end of the Kemmel straight, Bottas would have passed him (and Verstappen perhaps too).

Exactly.

Imagine Alonso instead of Bottas. He would have complain all the race, agitating his hands through ezu source

Or he would have remembered Hamilton did that to Better and anticipate the move

[P123]

Could you tell us the tows on the Kemmel straight?

There is your answer.

They aren't required to stay in lane...  If we're being hyper-critical of Bottas for not creating a better tow then at least he was trying to get one, and that's all he could do.

[andrewf1]

So?

 

Bottas also lifted. Even more. But look how Max is right under his rear wing coming up Raidillon.

 

So if it worked against Vettel in 2017, it worked against Bottas in 2020 too.

Neither Vettel nor Bottas did anything wrong, Lewis was just clever.

 

It didn't work for him in 2018 for instance, on that occasion Vettel's Ferrari stayed with him and breezed past.
 

So it's no guarantee to keep you in first position, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There's no need for this over-reaction against Bottas.

[Peeko]

For someone that always claims he wants close racing and isn't afraid of a fight, this cheeky move sure reeks of someone that wants to avoid a fight.

[BobbyRicky]

If Bottas lifts and doesnt crash into Lewis: "Booo, Bottas weak!"

If Bottas doesnt lift and ends up crashing into Lewis (Silverstone and Spa): "Booo, Bottas idiot crash into Lewis!"

 

If Bottas tyre explodes on the penultimate lap: "Booo, Bottas no can tyre-management"

If Lewis tyre explodes on the last lap: "Lewis king of tyre-management win on three-wheels GOATsimulator2020 activated!"

 

What do people even want from Bottas? Its not like he is Albon-slow compared to his teammate either. Dude has some speed at least.

[P123]

Bottas had the advantage of Lewis' slipstream while Max was punching a hole in the air

Sounds like Bottas used the tow to good effect then in order to defend.

[MikeV1987]

Bottas just doesn’t have it in him to consistently challenge Lewis, this is the team dynamic Mercedes wants. He’s far from useless, in fact he’s the perfect #2.

[Ivanhoe]

I think it's more of an assumption.  Largely based on the erroneous belief he did that previously to Vettel, whereas all he did there was not to go full throttle through Eau Rouge thereby denying Vettel a run and tow over the crest of the hill by keeping him stuck to his gearbox, and then planting it.

 

For this it's clear Bottas got a better run out of La Source, probably too close on the run down to Eau Rouge and Hamilton blocked his line meaning he had to lift on entry to Eau Rouge, which therefore compromised him.

Good point, not flooring it is something different than lifting. After reading this from Lewis on his move on Vettel it wasn't really the same as what happened yesterday. Lewis said he wanted to keep Vettel close so he couldn't get momentum for the pass. He did say he lifted a bit though.

 

 

 

Going down the straight [between La Source and Eau Rouge] I let off the power a little bit as well just to keep him on my tail. If he was further away he would have had the chance to gain momentum and pass on slipstream and that's what he would have wanted so I didn't give him that.

"So when we got to the top of the hill and he was there, he was facing the full force of the air just as I was so he had no hope. I was really pleased with that move."

In the pre-podium holding room, Vettel said to Hamilton "that was close" as they watched a replay of their duel, to which Hamilton replied: "I lifted, that's why you were close"

Edited by Ivanhoe, 31 August 2020 - 13:40.

[Requiem84]

They aren't required to stay in lane... If we're being hyper-critical of Bottas for not creating a better tow then at least he was trying to get one, and that's all he could do.

Not my point.

I reacted to someone saying Max / Ricciardo should be criticised too for not passing.

Hamilton gave Bottas the tow onto Kemmel by driving in front of him instead of on the racing line. Had Hamilton moved to the racing line, he had towed Verstappen passed Bottas.

Now Hamilton was towing Bottas, while Verstappen had zero tow. This lead to Ricciardo getting alongside into Les Combes, as he did have a good tow.

Ricciardo had a slightly bad exit out of La Source though, otherwise he surely would have passed Max.

[mtojay]

he ****ed up at the start. and then at the safety car restart he was caught napping once again. seriously. he is the perfect second driver for merc. i sometimes feel like he doesnt even want to attack lewis. how he constantly sleeps on safety car restarts when thats his best shot is beyond annoying at this point imo.

[Marklar]

For someone that always claims he wants close racing and isn't afraid of a fight, this cheeky move sure reeks of someone that wants to avoid a fight.

what fight? Bottas would have breezed passed him.

[P123]

Not my point.

I reacted to someone saying Max / Ricciardo should be criticised too for not passing.

Hamilton gave Bottas the tow onto Kemmel by driving in front of him instead of on the racing line. Had Hamilton moved to the racing line, he had towed Verstappen passed Bottas.

Now Hamilton was towing Bottas, while Verstappen had zero tow. This lead to Ricciardo getting alongside into Les Combes, as he did have a good tow.

Ricciardo had a slightly bad exit out of La Source though, otherwise he surely would have passed Max.

 

But then how is what Bottas did wrong, or evidence of poor racecraft?
 

[P123]

he ****ed up at the start. and then at the safety car restart he was caught napping once again. seriously. he is the perfect second driver for merc. i sometimes feel like he doesnt even want to attack lewis. how he constantly sleeps on safety car restarts when thats his best shot is beyond annoying at this point imo.

They all sleep on SC restarts.  None are exactly a Montoya.

[JeePee]

They all sleep on SC restarts.  None are exactly a Montoya.

Verstappen is always very awake.

[Requiem84]

But then how is what Bottas did wrong, or evidence of poor racecraft?

I already discussed that above (14:23).

In summary, he reacted a bit too strongly to Lewis lifting on the straight towards Eau Rouge.

But imo he did not do much wrong (which I never implied). Just a smart move by Hamilton and an over compliant reaction of Bottas.