115 replies to this topic

[rf90]

It is the domination of Mercedes cars for 7 years going on 8 that has prompted this question. I don't deny Mercedes has done a great job producing the car but the dominance has taken away any chance of fans getting excited about another car winning, that is not a result of unusual (and frankly ridiculous ) circumstances such as tyres falling apart. I don't include wins as a result of possibly illegal engines. There has not been such a long period of sustained dominance, not even Vettel's Red Bull years or Schumacher's Ferrari years. Both Schumacher's and Vettel's golden periods still had a good smattering of wins by other cars.
From when F1 started to exist in 1955 to 2013 there was that one year, 1988, where McLaren won all races bar one, but at least the McLarens had absolute top drivers driving those cars. ONE year of dominance in 59 years! and I don't believe there was anything to stop other teams do a better job.
Some forum posters, whom I assume love F1 as it is, have stated.. " there have always been dominant cars in F1" . While that is certainly very true, those dominant cars were of an era where F1 rules gave other teams at least a chance to react and improve their own cars to achieve equable or better performance. Never before has there been a period of 7/8 years where one car has reigned supreme.
Some forum posters state.."it's up to the other teams to do a better job" Really?? One of the fascinating aspects of F1 going back to 1955 from 2013, was that engineers/designers came up with all sorts of creative cars to beat the winning car, or maintain a winning car. The same type of engineer/designer still exists within F1, but they haven't any chance of doing what their peers of the past did.
I really don't know why F1 is so broken (in my opinion). I can only guess. My suspicion is that there is too much power in the hands of Manufacturer teams, who also, it seems, decide the rules of the game!
I REALLY hope 2022 brings F1 back to it's glory days.

 

[PayasYouRace]

Don't bring me problems. Bring me solutions.

 

What exactly would be "fixed" in your book? What does F1 need to become with the 2022 rules in order to not be "broken" and in order to not have to deal with the annual tedium of the "F1 Is Boring" threads?

 

Oh and F1 started to exist in 1946, and the world championship in 1950.

[TheFish]

I don’t think it’s broken.

It could be better of course, but you have a weird sense of domination. 2001, 2002 and 2004 weren’t domination by Ferrari? 1992 by Williams? Etc.

[Jovanotti]

I don’t think it’s broken.

It could be better of course, but you have a weird sense of domination. 2001, 2002 and 2004 weren’t domination by Ferrari? 1992 by Williams? Etc.

His point stands, there has never been such a period of dominance by one team before.

I don't hold my breath for close competition at the front in 2022, but at least the racing should be miles better.

Edited by Jovanotti, 01 September 2020 - 16:33.

[Rodaknee]

 My suspicion is that there is too much power in the hands of Manufacturer teams, who also, it seems, decide the rules of the game!
 

They don't in general.  One does, and we know who that is.  Whatever, the first 4 teams are all 'manufacturer' teams.  As we've seen when one team attempts to make a proper job of learning from a manufacturer's car, the other teams are all over it.

[Anja]

At the most fundamental level, F1 is still the same. And in a way... that's the problem. Because with the abundance of computing power, insanely complicated car designs, increasingly limited scope for development, and pretty minor rule changes, what we have now is a pretty logical outcome of the "F1 DNA" in the modern day - once you perfect the formula the advantage is going to last for a long time. How would we change that and go back to the "good old days" when sure, there were dominant cars, but at least the power balance shifted more often? We don't. 2022 rules should be a small step in a good direction, but it's not going far enough to make a significant difference. Simply put, as long as the engineering battle is the center of F1, what we have now is to be expected with modern technology and tight rules. And I don't see a way of fixing that without intentionally restricting some technological advancements - making the cars simpler, banning or severely limiting the telemetry - but that's just not going to happen. Opening the technical development might work with the budget cap in place but on the other hand it might make things even worse, it's very hard to predict. 

Edited by Anja, 01 September 2020 - 17:06.

[r4mses]

At the most fundamental level, F1 is still the same. And in a way... that's the problem. Because with the abundance of computing power, insanely complicated car designs, increasingly limited scope for development, and pretty minor rule changes, what we have now is a pretty logical outcome of the "F1 DNA" in the modern day - once you perfect the formula the advantage is going to last for a long time. How would we change that and go back to the "good old days" when sure, there were dominant cars, but at least the power balance shifted more often? We don't. 2022 rules should be a small step in a good direction, but it's not going far enough to make a significant difference. Simply put, as long as the engineering battle is the center of F1, what we have now is to be expected with modern technology and tight rules. And I don't see a way of fixing that without intentionally restricting some technological advancements - making the cars simpler, banning or severely limiting the telemetry - but that's just not going to happen. Opening the technical development might work with the budget cap in place but on the other hand it might make things even worse, it's very hard to predict. 

 

I doubt that's true. In fact - assuming people know what they're doing and everyone sticks to the rules - the contrary. The competition becomes closer the longer the rules are stable. See 2008 and 2013 most recently. 

[pdac]

Will F1 be fixed in 2022?

 

No.

[Pete_f1]

I hope it's a lot closer. But remember, how much money can Merc throw at 2022 compared to William's?

[pitlanepalpatine]

I could write a response why I don't think this will happen but I feel the GIF succinctly sums up my thoughts on the matter.

 

[r4mses]

I hope it's a lot closer. But remember, how much money can Merc throw at 2022 compared to William's?

 

That's not the question. Williams and Mercedes will /always/ be different leagues. The question is, how do the likes of Ferrari, Redbull, Renault and maybe McLaren hold up against Mercedes. 

[Marklar]

F1 has not been fixed for the past 70 years, why should it change now?

[William Hunt]

Dominance never was long in the past and it never was as heavy as now. The Lotus domination with their groundforce car lasted exactly one year, 1978, a year later it had evaporated like snow in the sun.

 

Lotus won 8 out of 16 races in '78, a lot but nothing like the amount we've seen Mercedes winning per year. Ferrari, Tyrrell (Patrick Depailler at Monaco) & Brabham also won races that year so despite a 'dominant team' we still saw 4 different cars winning that year

 

If you look further, to the podiums. This year we've only had Mercedes, Red Bull & Ferrari (thanks to extra-ordinary drives of Leclerc) on the podium.

 

In 1978, a suposedly dominant Lotus year (by today's standards we wouldn't even call that dominant) we had 10 different cars and 12 different drivers on the podium! That would be a dream today but perfectly normal stats in the old days.If Nico Hülkenberg had been born in an earlier era he would certainly have been a podium winner & race winner and wouldn't have to hear he's 'useless' because he still hasn't done so.

 

Lotus, Ferrari, Brabham, Tyrrell, Wolf, Ligier, Fittipaldi, McLaren, Williams & Arrows all scored a top 3 finish! Renault missed out with one 4th, Shadow had three 5ths and Surtees & Ensign a 6th place.

 

Another famous dominant period was 1988-1989 when McLaren dominated. But at least we still had an intense title fight between Senna & Prost and behind the McLaren's the field was rather close with March & Minardi upsetting the order now and then with Capelli & Martini even leading races and with Jean Alesi a revelation at Tyrrell in '89. It was still a damn interesting era with McLaren winning a lot but with a lot of driver transfers, even in season, 1989 had a whoppin' 39 F1 car field!!! Imagine the silly season thread today....

McLaren's domination only lasted for 2 years, from 1990 they were challenged by Williams (who had already been very quick in '89 but not enough to beat them), Benetton & Ferrari.

 

From 1992 until 1993 we had another domlnant period by Williams-Renault but again, like the McLaren-Honda era, it only lasted 2 years. By '94 Benetton and their new star Michael Schumacher were challenging and beating them and the field still had a lot of teams with a fascinating midfield pack.

Enter the Ferrari-Schumacher domination era, that was the first long period of boredom although there were still interesting years like the Hill-Schumacher, Häkkinen-Schumacher & Alonso-Schumacher title fight. Renault took over a short while but that also lasted only 2 years.

The past 10 years just 3 teams have taken all the honours, Red Bull, Mercedes & Ferrari (although only one title with Kimi) and the past couple of years Mercedes was almost impossible to beat.

F1 needs to realise that although there have been periods of dominance in the past they isually only lasted 1 or 2 years and a year like '78 that is considered 'dominant' (Lotus) actually had 12 teams scoring a podium!

Edited by William Hunt, 02 September 2020 - 04:31.

[P123]

A quick summary of the OP would be "Will Mercedes stop winning".  The answer to that is maybe, maybe not.

 

But that is 100% irrelevant to F1 fixing it's long term problems regarding bad aero and a poorly structured prize fund leaving those at the tail end scraping by.

[KWSN - DSM]

I will give it a solid 'maybe', tempered with a 'most likely not', followed by 'but hope at least a semblance of close racing and championship battles'.

[MasterOfCoin]

[Fastcake]

If anything can "fix" Formula One, with the proviso that it can only be fixed according to the criteria of those who think it's broken, it will be the budget cap and adjusted distribution of revenue that will be implemented over the next couple of years.

 

Once the gap in resources between Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull and the rest begins to close, it will be easier for the other teams to begin to challenge at the front. Ferrari and Red Bull have a similar budget to Mercedes and, despite the Scuderia being competitive for two years illegal engine or otherwise, aren't anywhere right now, so perhaps other teams will be given the chance. And yes Mercedes may still win, but I don't really know what you can do if the other teams still aren't good enough on a level playing field. It's either accept artificial measures to create competition or accept one team is just plain better.

[Vielleicht]

We could argue that one of the sure fire ways to quantify F1 being 'fixed' would be rising or at very least convincingly stable viewership?

[Anderis]

I hope 2022 will be a step in the right direction but I try to stay realistic and not to have too high expectations. I would go for even more radical changes myself.

 

I agree with Anja. Modern technology is what pushes F1 towards being boring and F1 has failed to recognise that as an issue and address it. What worked fine in the 70-ties and 80-ties, now gives too predictable outcomes because everything is mastered and helped by technology to a too large degree. F1 needs to decide what it wants to be, as in the last 15 years it's turned into a compromise that doesn't really satisfy anyone. I, for once, would be happy if it didn't pretend any longer to be a pinnacle of motorsport technology and rather try to provide a bigger challenge for drivers and teams in regards to keeping everything under control. It would require several steps backwards regarding a few things and many people wouldn't like it. But sometimes you need to take responsibility and take unpopular decisions in order to address serious issues, otherwise things start to rot slowly from within and it becomes even more painful to reform later when there's no hiding anymore.

[Burtros]

I hope 2022 will be a step in the right direction but I try to stay realistic and not to have too high expectations. I would go for even more radical changes myself.

I agree with Anja. Modern technology is what pushes F1 towards being boring and F1 has failed to recognise that as an issue and address it. What worked fine in the 70-ties and 80-ties, now gives too predictable outcomes because everything is mastered and helped by technology to a too large degree. F1 needs to decide what it wants to be, as in the last 15 years it's turned into a compromise that doesn't really satisfy anyone. I, for once, would be happy if it didn't pretend any longer to be a pinnacle of motorsport technology and rather try to provide a bigger challenge for drivers and teams in regards to keeping everything under control. It would require several steps backwards regarding a few things and many people wouldn't like it. But sometimes you need to take responsibility and take unpopular decisions in order to address serious issues, otherwise things start to rot slowly from within and it becomes even more painful to reform later when there's no hiding anymore.

I agree with this. And to add to it, in my opinion, you can make all the changes you like to the cars but the sheer amount of tech and data teams have will sanitise it one way or another.

F1 needs to recognise that it’s not just the cars and not just the income distribution problem it faces. It’s also about how the tech around data gathering is giving teams such a clear picture of their performance through a race before it starts, they are far to easily able to plan a race in fine detail and then coach the drivers through its execution in the race.

Look at how much better it can get when the data they have is rendered irrelevant by conditions like rain, unexpected tyre ware, safety cars etc. Once they are not following a script, it’s better.

Some ideas quickly - Reduce practice. Ban race sims in practice. Reduce teams real time data collection. Further reduction in driver coaching to extend to all forms of managing the cars performance unless for reliability.

Make them guess more about how a Sunday’s going to go. Like they used to have to do!

Edited by Burtros, 01 September 2020 - 18:25.

[rf90]

You are correct in your analysis Anja.

I wonder if one option is to re-introduce choice in engines. That would be a move away from an essentially spec series that we have now and allow creative minds to produce conceptually different cars that go a different way to achieve the lap times. It would  add variety if nothing else. Or does the fact that the world is collapsing around us prevent anything other than hybrid or electric? Would free tyre choice rather than a spec tyre from one supplier work? I am sure there are many who think nothing needs fixing, as one or two suggest, and I am sure anyone who has some sort of bias or vested interest in the status quo think all is fine and dandy in the world of F1.

[djparky]

Nope unless one of the other big teams closes the gap

[balage06]

Just imagine if Mercedes stayed in F1 in 1955...

[MinardiCrashDummy]

If the main goal is to stop Mercedes dominance then no it won't be "fixed"

 

One of the reasons F1 is in the position it is now is because short cuts were taken over the years to try and stop a dominant team at the time instead of taking a macro view of the issues.

[TomNokoe]

Cars are getting heavier still so it's a big fat no from me

[ATM]

Yeah, and about the size of a Mercedes Vito too. Sooner or later they’re going to widen the Casino hairpin at Monaco if they want to make the curve.

Still, with this budget cap and the Venturi ideas, one can only hope .

[ArrowsLivery]

There is way too much wrong with F1 for it to be fixed for 2022. Maybe we’ll get closer, less predictable racing, but the problems are so much deeper than that. 

[pdac]

We could argue that one of the sure fire ways to quantify F1 being 'fixed' would be rising or at very least convincingly stable viewership?

 

Not really. Motorsport, in general, is an niche concept now. So I doubt any well established series would have stable or rising viewership. Certainly nothing else will rise to even the current levels of F1 viewership.

[rf90]

If the main goal is to stop Mercedes dominance then no it won't be "fixed"

 

One of the reasons F1 is in the position it is now is because short cuts were taken over the years to try and stop a dominant team at the time instead of taking a macro view of the issues.

I don't know whose main goal you mean. In my view, the dominance as seen by Mercedes is unprecedented but if was racing team xyz, or manufacturer xyz that was dominating in such a way, it's just the same to me.

[Atreiu]

It depends on what you think is broken.

 

I think F1 needs two things regardless of technical specifications:

- catch up mechanics writen in the regulations to the benefit of less successful teams; and 

- spec steering wheels which severely slash the amount of functions/adjustments available and how much the pitwall can help a driver nurse his car during a race.

 

Do I expect either though? No.

Edited by Atreiu, 02 September 2020 - 19:17.

[Requiem84]

Its quite simple, F1 cannot be fixed until the moment they take away the power of the teams.

As long as the teams can determine the rule sets, it will always be a compromise where their self-interests will dominate.

[FrontWing]

Kick out Mercedes and Hamilton, let Max dominate, that will make fans happy.

[shure]

Sorry to be a pessimist but I don't believe F1 will ever be fixed, because those in charge haven't shown  any understanding  of what the issues are. 

 

The bottom line is that with the advent of these hybrid PUs F1 took a direction which all but guaranteed that only manufacturing teams will win in the future.  The tech is just too complex for any independent to compete with, which means the power lies with the manufacturers.  And it's become far too data driven, which means everything  is planned to the nth degree and very little is left to chance.  Previous attempts to reduce pitwall influence was met with stern resistance by the teams, so it's not likely to change anytime soon.  Finally, F1's insistence in giving the teams a say in how it's run means that self-interest will always triumph over what's good for the sport itself.  We may have minor improvements from time to time, but until the above are addressed it will never be "fixed" as such

[Vielleicht]

Not really. Motorsport, in general, is an niche concept now. So I doubt any well established series would have stable or rising viewership. Certainly nothing else will rise to even the current levels of F1 viewership.

If (and I make quite a strong point of that being an if) all of motorsport is becoming a niche concept and has declining viewership then I'd argue that perhaps all of motorsport is 'broken'...

 

It's one of the few metrics I can think of which is largely independant of individual bias and preferences. If you have a stable or rising viewership/engagement you are probably doing something right and if it is decresing then something is probably going wrong. How else are we supposed to guage if or when it is 'fixed'?

Edited by Vielleicht, 01 September 2020 - 22:27.

[balmybaldwin]

Don't bring me problems. Bring me solutions.

 

What exactly would be "fixed" in your book? What does F1 need to become with the 2022 rules in order to not be "broken" and in order to not have to deal with the annual tedium of the "F1 Is Boring" threads?

 

Oh and F1 started to exist in 1946, and the world championship in 1950.

I have a 3 very simple asks.

 

1. The cars are able to follow each other much more closely e.g. F2 levels of DF loss

 

2. Each weekend it would be nice to turn on the F1 without having 99% surety of what the result will be, so more variation of tracks, conditions etc,, less emphasis on reliability, a smaller range within regulations for competitive advantage, starting with 3 below

 

3. A Fair distribution of funds

 

I don't really care how this is achieved as long as it is safe, fair and presents a real challenge to drivers.

 

If that means 500hp 300KG mini cars, or banning wings, or prescribed aero features then so be it

[rf90]

Kick out Mercedes and Hamilton, let Max dominate, that will make fans happy.

I assume you are a Hamilton fan and think the thread is about him. Well it's not. I'm not a Hamilton fan but I do think he is an exceptional driver and I respect his pure racer qualities. I also respect that Mercedes have created an exceptional car. There have also been other times where exceptional drivers have been in exceptional cars but not for 7, 8 years in a row with minimal, at best, competition from other drivers or teams. If my favourite driver was fortunate enough to be in Hamilton's position for that length of time I can honestly say I would believe something was just not right.

[noikeee]

2022 will be a step in the right direction, but if you expect sunshine unicorns and rainbows you'll be disappointed.

[Atreiu]

2022 will be a step in the right direction, but if you expect sunshine unicorns and rainbows you'll be disappointed.

 

Gimme dragons and lightning!

[P123]

I assume you are a Hamilton fan and think the thread is about him. Well it's not. I'm not a Hamilton fan but I do think he is an exceptional driver and I respect his pure racer qualities. I also respect that Mercedes have created an exceptional car. There have also been other times where exceptional drivers have been in exceptional cars but not for 7, 8 years in a row with minimal, at best, competition from other drivers or teams. If my favourite driver was fortunate enough to be in Hamilton's position for that length of time I can honestly say I would believe something was just not right.

 

A bit of a conflicting post... it's not about Hamilton, but he wins too much, so if he doesn't win F1 will be fixed.  I supposed it depends on what you see as F1's problems.  Hamilton won't forget how to drive, nor Merc how to build a fast car, so it may not be fixed in the way you would like.  

 

F1 will be fixed if the cars can race closer together, whilst at least appearing to give the drivers some more work to do, and the resources available to all are similar throughout the grid.  That though doesn't guarantee against one team winning a lot or dominating.  There is the dark shadow of Ferrari maintaining their veto and preferential financial settlement, so F1 still has a weakness there. 

[MinardiCrashDummy]

I don't know whose main goal you mean. In my view, the dominance as seen by Mercedes is unprecedented but if was racing team xyz, or manufacturer xyz that was dominating in such a way, it's just the same to me.

 

I'm talking in general.

 

Team dominates FIA try to stop said dominance in a short sighted away instead of looking at the bigger picture and the true issues of the sport remain.

[beachdrifter]

F1 is still wildly popular, a lot more popular than one could even expect considering the massive changes in zeitgeist over the past decade.

 

I don't see it as broken at all, but the 2022 rules will certainly help improving the show and competitiveness for 2023 and beyond.

 

Like fine wine, it keeps growing on me personally.

Edited by beachdrifter, 02 September 2020 - 00:42.

[beachdrifter]

There is the dark shadow of Ferrari maintaining their veto and preferential financial settlement, so F1 still has a weakness there. 

 

That's the one thing that still annoys me. And as we've seen, it doesn't stop there. NDAs, different sets of rules on the track for Ferrari drivers etc.

[Rodaknee]

Dominance never was long in the past and it never was as heavy as now.

The past you speak of is very long gone - 30, 40, 50 years ago.  Back then a team that had a good idea, but couldn't develop it fast enough to beat the opposition.  No wind tunnels, no computers (my phone is more powerful than anything in F1 in 1985, the software is even better)

 

Many of the advances were visible, there wasn't a lot going on under the bodywork and most teams had the same engines.  Reliability was a real problem, cars crashed and sadly drivers didn't have long careers. 

 

Now, the cars have to be reliable, they are made to much finer tolerances, with better lubricants.  Much of the speed comes from under the bodywork, which can't be seen.  The top teams work hard at staying in front and get the results.  Those team who are half hearted, like Renault, get beaten - in the same way the one car teams, the part-timers and the bodgers did 30, 40 & 50 years ago.

 

F1 can't change because Bernie, CVC and others have taken all the money that should have been shared properly with the teams.  What did Mosley used to say "We can't give more money to the teams, they'll only spend it on the cars".  Well, we know what he spent his money on.

[THEWALL]

You are right, this IS the longest period of domination ever (there was a thread here where someone presented a nice chart), making the Ferrari, Red Bull, Williams and McLaren years pale in comparison.

 

Many things have brought this on: the lobbying by a big auto corporation to change rules to incorporate a technology they had a head start in developing (a custom made championship if you will), the shift to basically a computer controlled car making everything too optimized, and the political ability to manage changes and rules that had a high probability of favoring the same team. 

 

F1 has been shifting from a competition between independent racing car manufacturers and some boutique sports cars brands to a corporation-controlled activity meant to serve as a promotion branch for said corporation through a policy of domination under abysmally unequal terms of competition. 

 

2022 will change the aero rules for the cars, but not the engines that have had probably the biggest role in this era of domination. Nor will there be a limit on technology and computer intervention, making deviations from the norm ever more rare. You can put limits on spending, but you can't put a limit on the accumulated technology, know-how and political clout of a huge auto manufacturer.

 

So maybe, just maybe, the other auto manufacturers, still small in comparison to Daimler, manage to produce a rarity and can take the competition to the dominant corporation, but if you expect independent racing teams and boutique racing car manufacturers who buy their engines form these corporations, to be able (or allowed) to compete against them, then you are probably going to be disappointed...

I hope I'm wrong...   

[Rodaknee]

 

Many things have brought this on: the lobbying by a big auto corporation to change rules to incorporate a technology they had a head start in developing (a custom made championship if you will), the shift to basically a computer controlled car making everything too optimized, and the political ability to manage changes and rules that had a high probability of favoring the same team. 

 

 

You are aware it was Renault who wanted the new V6 formula, not Mercedes as you are suggesting?  I found this quote, I can't be bothered to look up any more.

 

 

Turbo question arose back in 2010 or even earlier, and it was Renault (with Red Bull team) who demanded transition to Turbo powered V6 cars, to be closer to automotive technologies of today, when turbo engines and hybrid "green" technologies are en vogue by car producers. This was met with some opposition from other teams, but Red Bull and Renault threatened to leave the championship and after some further talks this proposition was accepted. Also, was mentioned, that this will help to reduce cost of engines for non-works teams.

 

Renault couldn't make a decent engine, not for the first time, but Mercedes did.

[William Hunt]

Some ideas quickly - Reduce practice. Ban race sims in practice. Reduce teams real time data collection. Further reduction in driver coaching to extend to all forms of managing the cars performance unless for reliability.

 

Reducing practice is in the advantage of top teams like Mercedes!

And reducing real time data collection doesn't go far enough, to address the issue there should be a total ban on telemetry, anything else won't work or will hardly have any effect. 

[Requiem84]

Maybe a controversial question: was there ever a time where F1 was fixed?

[rf90]

Maybe a controversial question: was there ever a time where F1 was fixed?

Ask Ferrari that one.

[TheFish]

Ask Ferrari that one.

Or Fernando Alonso...

[Beri]

Maybe a controversial question: was there ever a time where F1 was fixed?

 

Well, no. Not in this millenium at least. Because the times the FIA tried to "fix" F1, it became worse. The 2009 rule changes came in place to stop the dominance of 1 specific red team. The blueprints for these rules, including KERS, already dated from as early as 2005. Yet, the specific red team was no dominant team anymore when the rules finally came into place. Following 2009, Red Bull became the dominant factor after just 1 season. And when those rules changed in 2014, we got to see the rise of Mercedes. So no, F1 hasnt been fixed.

 

For all that matters, we should revert back to the late 90s. With narrower cars that have less advanced aerodynamics. You can see that it works in Indycars. Add, to the taste, a little less computing (To name two examples: why should there be a remote garage that ssimulates 200 different scenarios on saturday night after the qualifying? And why should CFD be a thing?) and we could be in for a better F1 with more flaws and a power balance that can shift from one year to the other.

 

But after all, who am I kidding? Its all about the money and not about a healthy sport.