145 replies to this topic

[MarkBisset]

 

It is not often the Team Manager/Owner is a leaner, meaner fighting machine than his driver(s), not that the Jones Boy is a pork-chop here, just Aussie Solid!
 

My caption, others welcome, ‘Jesus Frank, take it easy, I’ve not run that fast since being chased by Father Bruno at Xavier in ‘64’ - where Xavier College is ‘St Fondles’, the Catholic Melbourne private boys school Stan sent his #1 son...

 

Forty years since the Williams boys won their first titles with AJ on 28 September BTW

Edited by MarkBisset, 16 September 2020 - 08:26.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Oh, it was! I even remember the figure, 23 millions!!

That guy really was a megalomaniac and primadonna

[jcbc3]

That guy really was a megalomaniac and primadonna

 

 

 

But he also knew how to pedal a car pretty fast, which is what counts.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

But he also knew how to pedal a car pretty fast, which is what counts.

You obviously ment to say "he knew how to pedal pretty fast car"

[jcbc3]

No, there were no caveats to my statement.

 

I never liked his whinging and was a staunch Prost supporter in time. But that doesn't preclude me from observing that Nigel had balls of steel and the wherewithal to use them.

[Gary Davies]

I’m 100% with jcbc3 but I do reserve the right to chuckle, all these years later, at Nige earnestly informing the gathered throng of muttering rotters that he pulled some insane G number at Silverstone - twenty something as I recall - by adding up the G Force corner after corner, Copse, Maggotts, Beckett’s, Chapel etc.   

[cpbell]

I’m 100% with jcbc3 but I do reserve the right to chuckle, all these years later, at Nige earnestly informing the gathered throng of muttering rotters that he pulled some insane G number at Silverstone - twenty something as I recall - by adding up the G Force corner after corner, Copse, Maggotts, Beckett’s, Chapel etc.   

Nigel?  Exaggerate?  Surely not!

[john aston]

If I may resort to Shakespeare , there's   a line in Coriolanus which always reminds me of Mansell . The eponymous hero boasts - 'Alone I did it '. 

 

Come to think of it , Shakespeare was  very nearly a Brummie too. 

[BRG]

Except that Mansell - irritatingly - always spoke in the plural.  It was never clear if it was the Royal We or an all inclusive Team We, but it was invariably 'Alone we did it'

[2F-001]

Quite a few of his pronouncements were right royal wee.

[garoidb]

Except that Mansell - irritatingly - always spoke in the plural.  It was never clear if it was the Royal We or an all inclusive Team We, but it was invariably 'Alone we did it'

 

I sometimes thought, but for no particular reason, that this might be a reference to Roseanne. 

[cpbell]

I sometimes thought, but for no particular reason, that this might be a reference to Roseanne. 

For all Nigel's interesting characteristics, he and his wife always seemed very close.

[Doug Nye]

The fully-developed Mansell racing driver was indeed a great racing animal.  The retired Mansell - somewhat incongruously - really has turned himself into a remarkably adept magician - displaying the most impressive sleight of hand, amongst other skills.

 

DCN

[cpbell]

The fully-developed Mansell racing driver was indeed a great racing animal.  The retired Mansell - somewhat incongruously - really has turned himself into a remarkably adept magician - displaying the most impressive sleight of hand, amongst other skills.

 

DCN

Are we using magician euphemistically or literally, Doug?

[airbox]

He started to learn magic as part of his recovery from concussion after his accident at Le Mans.

 

Fernando Alonso is also apparently a pretty good magician in  his spare time - particularly card tricks and sleight of hand 

[Jack-the-Lad]

I met Mansell twice, both in relaxed settings....at a Newman-Haas test weekend at Sebring (he was observing, not driving, that day) and at Mario’s retirement dinner in Indianapolis in 1994. He was quite personable and welcoming, not aloof at all. In fact he seemed a bit shy. He insisted on being photographed with my bulldog, Amos, which of course the canine obliged. I did detect a sense of “what’s all the fuss about?” at Mario’s dinner, however.

[cpbell]

He started to learn magic as part of his recovery from concussion after his accident at Le Mans.

 

Fernando Alonso is also apparently a pretty good magician in  his spare time - particularly card tricks and sleight of hand 

That just seems so incongruous somehow!

[Imperial]

I met Mansell twice, both in relaxed settings....at a Newman-Haas test weekend at Sebring (he was observing, not driving, that day) and at Mario’s retirement dinner in Indianapolis in 1994. He was quite personable and welcoming, not aloof at all. In fact he seemed a bit shy. He insisted on being photographed with my bulldog, Amos, which of course the canine obliged. I did detect a sense of “what’s all the fuss about?” at Mario’s dinner, however.

 

I met Nigel around 2000 I think, he did come across as a genuinely lovely bloke.

[F1matt]

He started to learn magic as part of his recovery from concussion after his accident at Le Mans.

 

Fernando Alonso is also apparently a pretty good magician in  his spare time - particularly card tricks and sleight of hand 

 

 

Indeed the greatest trick Alonso ever pulled was convincing his team mate to put it in the wall at Singapore so he could win the race. Beats the standard rabbit out of a hat every time. 

[aportinga]

Watching some F1 vids on Youtube. I and others often bring up Williams ditching good drivers like Prost and Mansell but I forgot about how Williams handled Alesi, Hill and Villenueve. 

 

Why was the treatment of solid drivers so poor and so often?

[bsc]

Watching some F1 vids on Youtube. I and others often bring up Williams ditching good drivers like Prost and Mansell but I forgot about how Williams handled Alesi, Hill and Villenueve.

Why was the treatment of solid drivers so poor and so often?

I do wonder if some of these 'lost' drivers can be put solely down to Williams. Alesi had signed some sort of a deal with Williams, but the lure of Ferrari played some part in him going there. Ferrari also had to compensate Williams to some degree.

Villeneuve left, but BAR was being built around him and had the promise of works Honda engines at the time. Given that BAR was probably better funded than Williams, it did seem, to a degree, an understandable move.

Hill's autobiography is quite interesting regarding his departure from Williams. He suggests that the team may have been under pressure to take a German driver. Soon after it lost its Renault engines, plus sponsorship from Rothmans/Winfield and Elf. As these were replaced by BMW, Allianz and Veltins it does seem plausible.

[airbox]

Not sure that HHF was signed as they needed take a German driver but it was more of a factor when they signed Ralf Schumacher. 

 

Actually I do think that they were right about Hill at the time they made the call (late in 1995) - he had been pretty comprehensively beaten by MS on the track and mentally as well. 

 

Damon himself has acknowledged the same thing in retrospect. On his day he was capable of beating anyone, but couldn't retain that level from race to race through a season.

[john aston]

Indeed the greatest trick Alonso ever pulled was convincing his team mate to put it in the wall at Singapore so he could win the race. Beats the standard rabbit out of a hat every time. 

But there is no evidence of that is there ?  Fact or conspiracy theory ?

[jcbc3]

Fact is irrefutable. Conspiracy is baseless speculation.

 

I believe most agree that we find Fernando's role somewhere in between these points.

 

Fact is that the crash was premeditated and on purpose. Piquet Jr. and Symonds has admitted to that.

 

What has not been proven is if Alonso was aware. Or rather, how naïve did he have to be, to know something was up, when he was short filled on a strategy that would never work in a million years unless a safety car magically appeared within the first 16 laps.

 

But you are correct in your statement, there is no evidence of Alonso knowing or being involved.

[garoidb]

Fact is irrefutable. Conspiracy is baseless speculation.

 

I believe most agree that we find Fernando's role somewhere in between these points.

 

Fact is that the crash was premeditated and on purpose. Piquet Jr. and Symonds has admitted to that.

 

What has not been proven is if Alonso was aware. Or rather, how naïve did he have to be, to know something was up, when he was short filled on a strategy that would never work in a million years unless a safety car magically appeared within the first 16 laps.

 

But you are correct in your statement, there is no evidence of Alonso knowing or being involved.

 

The short fill strategy was used by other drivers previously when a fast car was out of position at a race likely to produce a safety car at some point. What was the thinking behind Hamilton's strategy at the 2009 Australian Grand Prix, for example? Alonso himself pitted early at the Monaco Grand Prix in 2010 because he wouldn't have been able to carve his way through the field, and doing so gives you a long-shot chance. 

[jcbc3]

Keep believing

[F1matt]

jcbc3 summed it up perfectly for me, the only thing I would add is that Alonso questions everything on the radio and is famous for his outbursts, when he got pitted in Singapore totally against what everyone else was doing he didn't complain on the radio which speaks volumes for me. 

 

As this has nothing to do with Williams I apologise to admin for going off topic.

Edited by F1matt, 25 September 2020 - 10:30.

[PlayboyRacer]

Watching some F1 vids on Youtube. I and others often bring up Williams ditching good drivers like Prost and Mansell but I forgot about how Williams handled Alesi, Hill and Villenueve.

Why was the treatment of solid drivers so poor and so often?

Williams didn't treat any of them badly, besides Damon Hill and maybe Mansell, to a degree.

Williams wanted Villeneuve to stay. Obviously there was the chance to start his own team, though he also had an approach from McLaren. So he'd likely have left anyway.

[JordanIreland]

To me, the sale is another sad “development” in the continuing loss of the old school teams.

I couldn’t disagree more. F1 is constantly evolving with teams coming and going and the ownership of teams is always in flux. Look at how many people now have shares in racing point. F1 is a business just as much as it is a sport. The Williams Family (as much as I fully admire ALL that they have achieved and it really is amazing) were not able to keep up. Their “old school” model didn’t work anymore.

[Tim Murray]

Some posts have been removed or edited. Please make your points without personal attacks on other posters.

[PCC]

But there is no evidence of that is there ?  Fact or conspiracy theory ?

A common feature of conspiracy theories is the assumption that if someone benefited from an event, then they must have caused it. It's pretty thin ice; many things that may reasonably be considered evidence fall very short of being proof.

[Charlieman]

I couldn’t disagree more. F1 is constantly evolving with teams coming and going and the ownership of teams is always in flux. Look at how many people now have shares in racing point. F1 is a business just as much as it is a sport. The Williams Family (as much as I fully admire ALL that they have achieved and it really is amazing) were not able to keep up. Their “old school” model didn’t work anymore.

F1 has been reinvented around the requirements of motor manufacturers. The engine rules about 'relevancy' are supposedly about an F1 engine which resembles something in a road car -- so a six cylinder with a turbocharger is logical and kinetic energy is easy to follow.

But that extra thing -- MGU-H, basically an exhaust turbine which charges up the same batteries as MGU-K, the brake charger -- was laboratory tech until the F1 rule makers added it to the rules. I've read scientific papers from the the 1920s to the 1980s about MGU-H theory, and 100 years later it is ridiculous technology for a road vehicle. It is 'relevant' for the rules but it is irrelevant to any road car. And ridiculously expensive. How many companies is it -- four, I think -- have built an MGH-U? Well done to them, but so what?

When you take away the MGU-H, there's a possibility that an expert in combustion engines and an expert in electrics might team up to build a competitive F1 engine on a sensible budget.
---
Never assume that F1 or GP racing interests car manufacturers. Ferrari is the only team that has never walked away from F1 or GP racing, and we have to give an allowance breaks.

[E1pix]

I couldn’t disagree more. F1 is constantly evolving with teams coming and going and the ownership of teams is always in flux. Look at how many people now have shares in racing point. F1 is a business just as much as it is a sport. The Williams Family (as much as I fully admire ALL that they have achieved and it really is amazing) were not able to keep up. Their “old school” model didn’t work anymore.

Agree with part of that, but losing the continuity of a brand name — whether in racing or any other sport — is a step back for the fan base. A reset of everything a team earned, and was known for. Gone, but not forgotten.

Some are so brand-loyal to defunct teams that they use a team’s name on forums. And why not?

[john aston]

Formula One would be in a much better place for this long term watcher if it didn't now  feature terms like brand (as if a team were just a make of washing powder ) and fan base (as if all its adherents were simpletons). 

[E1pix]

Sure not the way I intended those terms, John.

[john aston]

Understood 

[E1pix]

[2F-001]

...
Some are so brand-loyal to defunct teams that they use a team’s name on forums. And why not?

A neatly-observed irony there...!

[Derwent Motorsport]

I find it odd in BTCC that the make of car is not mentioned on the graphics, just the main sponsor.  OK, the cars mainly use the same engines and suspension but they are in different shells. 

[Allan Lupton]

I find it odd in BTCC that the make of car is not mentioned on the graphics, just the main sponsor.  OK, the cars mainly use the same engines and suspension but they are in different shells. 

The graphics on the TV for F1 racing never mention the car or sponsor, just the driver. I accept that even those older folk who are not avid enthusiasts can be assumed to know the driver/maker combinations of a few front-runners but we don't know about the lower orders and, as I've complained before, there are few clearly visible comp. numbers to help us.

[68targa]

I find it odd in BTCC that the make of car is not mentioned on the graphics, just the main sponsor.  OK, the cars mainly use the same engines and suspension but they are in different shells. 

Very Odd. You would think that Toyota, Honda etc would like to have their brands mentioned. I find it very frustrating.

[BRG]

Very Odd. You would think that Toyota, Honda etc would like to have their brands mentioned. I find it very frustrating.

Well, the marques that are putting money in have their name writ large on the side of the car -  BMW and Honda.  The rest are just hanging on the coat-tails of the privateers.

[john aston]

I find it odd in BTCC that the make of car is not mentioned on the graphics, just the main sponsor.  OK, the cars mainly use the same engines and suspension but they are in different shells. 

 But what if they did - the only people ever seen in  a modern MG or European spec  Chevrolet are BTCC drivers I suspect ...

[Derwent Motorsport]

 But what if they did - the only people ever seen in  a modern MG or European spec  Chevrolet are BTCC drivers I suspect ...

Re MG, They are currently the fastest growing marque on the UK market having overtaken other makes like Subaru and Alfa Romeo and not far from Fiat.  The MG6 as in the car raced a few years back in BTCC was on sale in the UK as the Chinese tried to break into the market.   The current MG SUVs having noting to do with a great marque in my opinion but they are selling well. 

[BRG]

Re MG, They are currently the fastest growing marque on the UK market having overtaken other makes like Subaru and Alfa Romeo and not far from Fiat.  The MG6 as in the car raced a few years back in BTCC was on sale in the UK as the Chinese tried to break into the market.   The current MG SUVs having noting to do with a great marque in my opinion but they are selling well. 

MG are starting to make in-roads with their SUV in ICE and EV form.  But there are currently just 115,000 MG cars on the UK's roads and 23,000 of those are MG Bs!

[aportinga]

Not sure that HHF was signed as they needed take a German driver but it was more of a factor when they signed Ralf Schumacher. 

 

Actually I do think that they were right about Hill at the time they made the call (late in 1995) - he had been pretty comprehensively beaten by MS on the track and mentally as well. 

 

Damon himself has acknowledged the same thing in retrospect. On his day he was capable of beating anyone, but couldn't retain that level from race to race through a season.

 

I really have no idea if DH assisted - and to what degree, in building what was on its way to be a great car. If he did play any role I think keeping him on board as the elder may have provided a different outcome overall for Williams.